WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Doug Brents]

I know you are an advocate for works salvation, understand that denies Grace Salvation.

I am not an advocate of “works salvation”. I am an advocate of Biblical salvation, and as I said, there is no passage that says works are not required. But there are scores of passages that say works are required. If you think there is such a passage, please point it out.

 

[Ligurian]

Sorry, but there is only one Gospel. Only one “good news” which the New Covenant presents.

As Paul says in Gal 1:8-9, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven having the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth and to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment is come, and worship Him that made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters.

Galatians 2:7 =
Galatians 3:2-5 by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
VS
John John 14:15-16 If ye love Me keep My Commandments, and I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Comforter

Matthew 4:15 The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations: 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Brightfame52]

I am not an advocate of “works salvation”. I am an advocate of Biblical salvation, and as I said, there is no passage that says works are not required. But there are scores of passages that say works are required. If you think there is such a passage, please point it out.

In my opinion you advocate works salvation, I have read your posts.

 

[Doug Brents]

In my opinion you advocate works salvation, I have read your posts.

THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT ACTIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR A PERSON TO RECEIVE SALVATION. I teach as the Bible does, which means I MUST teach that action is required to receive salvation. The fact that you teach that action is not required means you are teaching a doctrine contrary to the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven having the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth and to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment is come, and worship Him that made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters.

Galatians 2:7 =
Galatians 3:2-5 by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
VS
John John 14:15-16 If ye love Me keep My Commandments, and I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Comforter

Matthew 4:15 The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations: 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All of that is ONE gospel. The good news that the Kingdom of God in Christ is come to man. There is only one good news because there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT ACTIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR A PERSON TO RECEIVE SALVATION. I teach as the Bible does, which means I MUST teach that action is required to receive salvation. The fact that you teach that action is not required means you are teaching a doctrine contrary to the Bible.

Okay you teach that the bible teaches works salvation. I disagree, I see the bible teaching Salvation by grace apart from works.

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay you teach that the bible teaches works salvation. I disagree, I see the bible teaching Salvation by grace apart from works.

Apart from works of the Law. But not apart from any action whatsoever. Paul is very clear in Romans, and in other of his letters, that works of the Law (of Moses) do not save. And he contrasts works of the Law with the law of faith. But faith is not inactive. Faith REQUIRES action for it to have any value. And it is THROUGH that active faith that grace is received.

Certainly we did nothing to earn our salvation, because while we were still sinners (enemies of God) Christ died to pay the price for our sin. Now, to receive the benefit of that sacrifice, we must have faith, action filled, total surrender to His will faith. This is not a purely mental belief. This must be a public, verbal, visible confession of Jesus’ name (Rom 10:9-10), along with a repentance that stops living a sinful lifestyle (Acts 3:19), and a baptism in water in Jesus’ name (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). These are all actions that Scripture says lead to salvation.

 

[Ligurian]

All of that is ONE gospel. The good news that the Kingdom of God in Christ is come to man. There is only one good news because there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved.

Please explain how THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom:

1 Corinthians 15:1-5 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve

*********************
The Gospel of the Kingdom:
Exists within the Parables and Commandments of Jesus,
who proves He is the Messiah by His words and His works.

Matthew 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom and understandeth not, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself but dureth for a while, for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is entraped.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh barren.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word and understandeth, which also beareth fruit and bringeth forth some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
+
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
=
The law of sin and death.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you cannot see this difference, then you are blind.

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is: that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God, but that we write unto them that they abstain from: pollutions of idols and fornication and things strangled and blood.

Much more is required of the circumcision than from the gentiles.
Your faith allows-for subjective belief.
My faith is entirely objective belief.
The two cannot be blended without damaging both.

There IS a gospel given to the circumcision which existed BEFORE
that event on the road to Damascus. That event gave birth to
the gospel of grace by faith alone.
yeah... I can prove this, too... having been there and done that.

 

[Doug Brents]

Please explain how THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom:

1 Corinthians 15:1-5 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve

*********************
The Gospel of the Kingdom:
Exists within the Parables and Commandments of Jesus,
who proves He is the Messiah by His words and His works.

Matthew 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom and understandeth not, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself but dureth for a while, for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is entraped.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh barren.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word and understandeth, which also beareth fruit and bringeth forth some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
+
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
=
The law of sin and death.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you cannot see this difference, then you are blind.

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is: that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God, but that we write unto them that they abstain from: pollutions of idols and fornication and things strangled and blood.

Much more is required of the circumcision than from the gentiles.
Your faith allows-for subjective belief.
My faith is entirely objective belief.
The two cannot be blended without damaging both.

There IS a gospel given to the circumcision which existed BEFORE
that event on the road to Damascus. That event gave birth to
the gospel of grace by faith alone.
yeah... I can prove this, too... having been there and done that.

The Gospel is the same to the Gentile as it is to the Jew, because there is no longer a difference between Jew and Gentile: both are one people in Christ.
The Gospel is the good news of reunion with God through Christ. This includes the Body of Christ (the Church), the Kingdom (more properly the Kingship) of Christ, and our hope of Heaven eternally with Christ. This is the same Gospel preached by John (the Kingdom is coming), Jesus (the Kingdom is almost here), and Paul (the Kingdom is here (the Kingdom began on Pentecost)).

No new Gospel began on the road to Damascus. That was a revelation to Saul that he was fighting against God (instead of fighting for God as he had believed he was), and he then began to teach the one Gospel (primarily to the Gentiles).

Even during the OT, the Gospel was the same: there is a coming Messiah who will be King and save us from our enemies. The Jews believed in, and wanted, a temporal king to free them from Rome (or whatever nation controlled them at whatever time).

 

[Brightfame52]

Apart from works of the Law. But not apart from any action whatsoever. Paul is very clear in Romans, and in other of his letters, that works of the Law (of Moses) do not save. And he contrasts works of the Law with the law of faith. But faith is not inactive. Faith REQUIRES action for it to have any value. And it is THROUGH that active faith that grace is received.

Certainly we did nothing to earn our salvation, because while we were still sinners (enemies of God) Christ died to pay the price for our sin. Now, to receive the benefit of that sacrifice, we must have faith, action filled, total surrender to His will faith. This is not a purely mental belief. This must be a public, verbal, visible confession of Jesus’ name (Rom 10:9-10), along with a repentance that stops living a sinful lifestyle (Acts 3:19), and a baptism in water in Jesus’ name (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). These are all actions that Scripture says lead to salvation.

Lol, You still advocating Salvation by works, its addicting isnt it ?

 

[Doug Brents]

Lol, You still advocating Salvation by works, its addicting isnt it ?

I am still waiting for you to show me where Scripture says that we are not saved through our actions; that there is no action necessary to receive salvation.

Please note that Scripture does not say we are saved BY our actions, but it does say we are saved THROUGH our actions.

 

[Brightfame52]

I am still waiting for you to show me where Scripture says that we are not saved through our actions; that there is no action necessary to receive salvation.

Please note that Scripture does not say we are saved BY our actions, but it does say we are saved THROUGH our actions.

You can wait all you want, you advocate against scripture, salvation by your works.

 

[Doug Brents]

You can wait all you want, you advocate against scripture, salvation by your works.

Show me where Scripture says differently!

 

[Rapture Bound]

Doug Brents replied [post #1252], "Just FYI, Heb 10:10 says “once for all”, not ‘once and for all’.

“Once for all” means that Christ died once, and His sacrifice was for all (unlike the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant).
This is not the common saying “once and for all” implying “finally” or “at long last” (which is true, but not the implication of this verse."

My Reply :

Yes, I would agree with your statement that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all" in the sense that it was unlike [and vastly superior to] the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant; however, I would disagree with you as it pertains to the implications of a believer's eternal security. The critical verse that adds more substance to that discussion is found in verse 14.

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." [KJV].

Hebrews 10 :14 - Greek interlinear :

"By one [mia] for [gar] offering [prosphora] He has perfected [teteleiōken] for all time [eis to diēnekes] those [tous] being sanctified [hagiazomenous]."

"He has perfected" - root - Strong's #5048. teleioó
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

"being sanctified" - root - Strong's #37. hagiazó
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Where should the emphasis be placed?

Generally speaking, those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation] camp emphasize the aspect of the singularity of Christ's sacrifice [i.e. - it's completeness and sufficiency for the forgiveness and redemption of humanity throughout all of history] ... "For by one offering." That is, Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins [forever abolishing the need of it's repetition, as well as the Old Covenant sacrificial system]. It was Christ's singular act of atonement that provided a perfect and acceptable sacrifice which alone could satisfy God's holy righteousness and justice].

On the other hand, the opposing camp, the OJAS ["Once Justified, Always Justified"] or OASAAS ["Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved"] advocates by and large focus upon the resulting effect of Christ's singular sacrifice upon those who have placed their faith in it's efficacy and sufficiency to obtain their right-standing before God ... "he hath perfected for ever [for all time] them that are sanctified [those being sanctified]." To state it in a slightly different manner for further clarity ... "those being sanctified" - all those who, from age to age, through faith receive as their own that which has been procured for all men.

Although it is true that we do not have an "either/or", but rather a "both/and" scenario in view here [each camp representing one-half of the dual truths declared in Hebrews 10:14], it appears to me that there is compelling evidence contained within this verse supporting the OJAJ position.

Should we view the sanctification spoken of here ["those being sanctified"] in a positional or progressive sense?

Although it certainly looks to me that positional sanctification is in view here, a person's perspective on this issue actually matters little as it pertains to the question of the eternal security of the believer [as I will attempt to demonstrate by the following truth claims].

(1) A person cannot be progressively sanctified unless he/she has been positionally sanctified [or set apart by God as holy].

(2) A person cannot be sanctified in either a positional or progressive sense without also experiencing a justified status before God. [1 Corinthians 6:11].

(3) All those who have been justified will also be glorified [in both it's "already" and "not yet" dimensions]. Although glorification is viewed as including a present [continous] sanctifying/transformational work of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers, there is also a future aspect attached to it ... the reception of a glorified body - a resurrection body in Heaven.

Therefore, positional and progressive sanctification, as well as the [ultimate] redemption of the body, are states that will be actualized in all of those ["from age to age"] who experience a justified status before God.

Romans 6:5 [Greek Interlinear] - "If [Ei] for [gar] united [symphytoi] we have become [gegonamen] in the [tō] likeness [homoiōmati] of the [tou] death [thanatou] of Him [autou] certainly [alla] also [kai] of the [tēs] resurrection [anastaseōs] we will be [esometha]."

Romans 6:5 [English Standard Version] - "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."... it certainly [alla] sounds to me that both OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] and OASAAS [Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved] are truths proclaimed by the scriptures .... it doesn't get any better than this my friends!!! ... All Praise and Glory to Jesus Christ! - The [Singular] Precious Lamb of God!!!

[see post #103, "Further thoughts on the glorification of God's elect"] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

[also, see post #63,"Connecting the Dots between Justification and Glorification" < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

 

[Doug Brents]

You can wait all you want, you advocate against scripture, salvation by your works.

Come on now. I know you believe there is a passage somewhere that says there is nothing man must do to receive salvation. Where is it? Show it to me, please.

 

[Brightfame52]

Show me where Scripture says differently!

I have given you my scriptures. Nevertheless you teach salvation by works, even though scripture teaches its by grace and not works.

 

[Brightfame52]

Come on now. I know you believe there is a passage somewhere that says there is nothing man must do to receive salvation. Where is it? Show it to me, please.

You have been shown by me and many others scriptures that state that salvation is by grace apart from works.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Come on now. I know you believe there is a passage somewhere that says there is nothing man must do to receive salvation. Where is it? Show it to me, please.

There is no such scripture but you can find the opposite written in James 2:18-26; Matthew 7:21; 1 John 2:2-3; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and John 10:26-27. Furthermore according to the scripture, God's grace that we receive through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 is for obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 and teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts so that we should live righteously and godly in this present world *Titus 2:10-11. This is what Paul is also talking about in Romans 6:1-23 when he says we are to die to sin and live in newness of life to holiness and righteousness (right doing) to God.

God bless

 

[Doug Brents]

You have been shown by me and many others scriptures that state that salvation is by grace apart from works.

Are you perhaps referring to Eph 2:8-9? That passage does not say that our salvation does not require any action on our part. Many people teach that it does, but they are wrong.

Salvation is by grace (the gift of God) through faith (action motivating and producing belief). “Not of works” refers not to how we receive salvation, but to how and why He offered us grace to begin with.

Beyond that, there are numerous passages that say explicitly that action is required to receive salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is one of the most explicit. “…if you confess with the mouth…” God could not be more clear that a physical action is taking place here, and that physical action leads to (not flows from) the reception of salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Are you perhaps referring to Eph 2:8-9? That passage does not say that our salvation does not require any action on our part. Many people teach that it does, but they are wrong.

Salvation is by grace (the gift of God) through faith (action motivating and producing belief). “Not of works” refers not to how we receive salvation, but to how and why He offered us grace to begin with.

Beyond that, there are numerous passages that say explicitly that action is required to receive salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is one of the most explicit. “…if you confess with the mouth…” God could not be more clear that a physical action is taking place here, and that physical action leads to (not flows from) the reception of salvation.

Again you have been shown by many to include myself scripture that says salvation is by Grace and not works but you can't understand it. Only God can open your understanding to embrace it.