Why Not Catholic?

[Jim47]

I totally agree.
Mary was (and still is) a very humble woman.
In my opinion, when we pray to her we are actually embarassing that great woman of God who would want nothing else, but for us to pray directly to Father as Jesus directed us.

Ed

Mary is no longer a woman. She is just like the angels who have only a spiritual body with no gender, as we shall also be one day. And since Mary worshiped Jesus as her Savior, I rather doubt that she would approve of us praying to her because Jesus taught us to pray to our Heavenly Father and Him alone.

 

[DaRev]

Ed

Mary is no longer a woman. She is just like the angels who have only a spiritual body with no gender, as we shall also be one day.

Are you certain about that? The dead do not become angels. Also, the Christian faith teaches a bodily resurrection that what we are now physically will be glorified to all eternity. Did Jesus stop being a man at His death and resurrection? I think not.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well, since Jesus specifically commanded us to pray to "Our Father in Heaven", that to me seems to be enough scriptural proof NOT to pray to saints, even if the edict to not pray to saints isn't found anywhere in scripture.

MY question was not about praying TO those in heaven (in the sense of desiring them to answer the prayer) but whether Scripture clearly states that those brothers and sisters in Christ either...
1) Can or cannot love and care for those still struggling on earth...
2) Can or cannot pray to God...
3) Can or cannot know our needs?

IF Scripture is clear on each of these 3 points, then perhaps we can state that it is or is not appropriate to ask our Christian brothers and sisters (INCLUDING those in heaven), or if we have a matter of adiaphora.


MY $0.005


Pax


- Josiah





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[Edial]

MY question was not about praying TO those in heaven (in the sense of desiring them to answer the prayer) but whether Scripture clearly states that those brothers and sisters in Christ either...
1) Can or cannot love and care for those still struggling on earth...
2) Can or cannot pray to God...
3) Can or cannot know our needs?

IF Scripture is clear on each of these 3 points, then perhaps we can state that it is or is not appropriate to ask our Christian brothers and sisters (INCLUDING those in heaven), or if we have a matter of adiaphora.


MY $0.005


Pax


- Josiah
.

Without quoting Scriptures at this time, yet Scripturally speaking ...

Concerning point 1, I would say they very much care for believers on this Earth and rejoice when non-believers become believers.

Point 2, they can and do pray to God (concerning what is another matter)

Point 3, do they know our needs? Good question. I do not know.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Yet, she is like an angel (as the Scriptures says concerning us all) and not a woman. I stand corrected.

MK 12:24 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Yet she is still humble.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Without quoting Scriptures at this time, yet Scripturally speaking ...

Concerning point 1, I would say they very much care for believers on this Earth and rejoice when non-believers become believers.

Point 2, they can and do pray to God (concerning what is another matter)

Point 3, do they know our needs? Good question. I do not know.

Thanks,
Ed

Those would be my theories, too...


Thus, I'm a tad curious why the Lutheran Confessions regard it as wrong rather than adiaphora to request their prayers?


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah





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[Zecryphon]

Yet, she is like an angel (as the Scriptures says concerning us all) and not a woman. I stand corrected.

MK 12:24 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Yet she is still humble.

Thanks,
Ed

Okay Ed, but does that verse support us being like the angels in regards to our bodies and lack of gender or does it support that like the angels, we too will not be given in marriage or marry when in heaven?

 

[DaRev]

Thus, I'm a tad curious why the Lutheran Confessions regard it as wrong rather than adiaphora to request their prayers?

How would you communicate your prayer request to those in heaven? It could only be through prayer. And Scripture forbids praying to anyone other than God Himself. Thus why the Confessions regard it as wrong.

I just don't get why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Jim47]

Are you certain about that? The dead do not become angels. Also, the Christian faith teaches a bodily resurrection that what we are now physically will be glorified to all eternity. Did Jesus stop being a man at His death and resurrection? I think not.

I didn't say that we become Angels, I said we become like them with a spiritual body. As you can see Ed already posted the correct scripture to verify this but here are more

1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Yet, she is like an angel (as the Scriptures says concerning us all) and not a woman. I stand corrected.

MK 12:24 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Yet she is still humble.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

I didn't say that we become Angels, I said we become like them with a spiritual body. As you can see Ed already posted the correct scripture to verify this but here are more

1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

But the resurrected body is still a physical body. We know this by the use of the word "body" in the text.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

But the resurrected body is still a physical body. We know this by the use of the word "body" in the text.

Rev, I was just discussing this with some of our Catholic Brothers over in OBOB.

Since Scripture tells us that "Christ shall change our viel body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body." Phil. 321, would "transfigured" be a good description?

 

[DaRev]

Rev, I was just discussing this with some of our Catholic Brothers over in OBOB.

Since Scripture tells us that "Christ shall change our viel body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body." Phil. 321, would "transfigured" be a good description?

I don't know if I would use that word as a descriptor. Remember, Christ was transfigured before the resurrection.

After the resurrection He had a physical body. And the Scriptures say that we will have a resurrection like His.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't know if I would use that word as a descriptor. Remember, Christ was transfigured before the resurrection.

After the resurrection He had a physical body. And the Scriptures say that we will have a resurrection like His.

Thanks Rev.

Was His body at the resurrection, not the same "transfigured" body that was nailed to the Cross. Oops, I think that I answered my own question... His transfigured body could die, his resurrected one is eternal/immortal.

Thanks again Rev.

 

[Edial]

But the resurrected body is still a physical body. We know this by the use of the word "body" in the text.

Then I do not understand what "physical" means.

Christ was presented in 5 ways, the way I remember it in the Scriptures.

1. Prior to incarnation as Word.
2. Life on Earth as God in fully human body.
3. Transfigured, where His face shone like sun (strong statement) and cloth was white like light (another impressive statement).
4. Appeared on Earth for 40 days after His death in human body with hands and side pierced ... while being able to go through a closed door.
5. Appeared to John in Revelation. And the description of Him is stunning ...
REV 1:12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
REV 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In His fully glorified state Christ was defined by John "like a son of man".

So, I just know there is a natural body and a spiritual body.

And in my opinion, spiritual body somehow might include a type of a "physical" body like we might include a shadow ... but that just might be a sci-fi speculation that LutheranMafia might really be interested in.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Okay Ed, but does that verse support us being like the angels in regards to our bodies and lack of gender or does it support that like the angels, we too will not be given in marriage or marry when in heaven?

I don't know.

It presents that there will be no sexual relation. Marriage includes sexual relations.

Will there be women and men in Heaven?

Here it comes ... There will be no women in Heaven ...

REV 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

... since there was silence in Heaven for half an hour ... and since keeping silent for women is an issue ... (I'm outta here).

 

[DaRev]

Then I do not understand what "physical" means.

Christ was presented in 5 ways, the way I remember it in the Scriptures.

1. Prior to incarnation as Word.
2. Life on Earth as God in fully human body.
3. Transfigured, where His face shone like sun (strong statement) and cloth was white like light (another impressive statement).
4. Appeared on Earth for 40 days after His death in human body with hands and side pierced ... while being able to go through a closed door.
5. Appeared to John in Revelation. And the description of Him is stunning ...
REV 1:12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
REV 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In His fully glorified state Christ was defined by John "like a son of man".

So, I just know there is a natural body and a spiritual body.

And in my opinion, spiritual body somehow might include a type of a "physical" body like we might include a shadow ... but that just might be a sci-fi speculation that LutheranMafia might really be interested in.

Thanks,
Ed

Remember that the Revelation account is a vision and not an actual description of His physical appearance. Also, John used a lot of descriptors from the OT (Daniel, Ezekiel, etc.) in Revelation ("like a son of man").

As for our resurrected bodies being able to walk through doors (although the text no where says that Christ "walked through a door" but rather "He appeared" in the room), we need to also remember that Jesus is God and possesses the divine attributes (including omnipresence) even in His human nature. Scripture does not say that we will possess divine attributes after the resurrection.

 

[Edial]

Remember that the Revelation account is a vision and not an actual description of His physical appearance. Also, John used a lot of descriptors from the OT (Daniel, Ezekiel, etc.) in Revelation ("like a son of man").

Not an actual description?

I'll look at the text again ...

v.12 - John turned around to see the voice ...
v.13 - he saw a distinct person
v.13-16 - that person was distinctly described
v.17 - that person placed His right hand on John

What John saw was as real as the hand that was placed on John.

What John heard, saw, and felt was certainly an actual person.

REV 1:12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
REV 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

As for our resurrected bodies being able to walk through doors (although the text no where says that Christ "walked through a door" but rather "He appeared" in the room), we need to also remember that Jesus is God and possesses the divine attributes (including omnipresence) even in His human nature. Scripture does not say that we will possess divine attributes after the resurrection.

I never suggested we will possess divine attributes.
How could we.
I just listed the 5 instances I recalled where Jesus appeared in NT in various forms.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Jim47]

But the resurrected body is still a physical body. We know this by the use of the word "body" in the text.

Yes, of course.

 

[RadMan]

I don't know.

It presents that there will be no sexual relation. Marriage includes sexual relations.

Will there be women and men in Heaven?

Here it comes ... There will be no women in Heaven ...

REV 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

... since there was silence in Heaven for half an hour ... and since keeping silent for women is an issue ... (I'm outta here).

LOL-----that was a gut buster

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't know.

It presents that there will be no sexual relation. Marriage includes sexual relations.

Will there be women and men in Heaven?

Here it comes ... There will be no women in Heaven ...

REV 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

... since there was silence in Heaven for half an hour ... and since keeping silent for women is an issue ... (I'm outta here).

Ed, I see from your info you're not a married man, and judging from this post I think I may know why.