Why Not Catholic?

[BabyLutheran]

I found this doing a web search. Not sure what I think of this topic, other than I don't think it is unbiblical to ask the saints in heaven to pray for, I just don't think it is something that we should divide on if someone wishes to do so. It is not clear to me that they can hear us, but I have seen nothing saying they can't hear us either. I am sure this stuff below is from a Catholic point of view.

First off, the priest explains that Jesus is the mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5) but that doesn’t preclude Christians from praying to God for others. In fact, it is commanded in the Bible. In Romans 15:30 for instance Paul urges fellow believers to “join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Also, Paul himself prays for others as seen in his words “I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers” (Philemon 1:4). Further, Scripture also teaches us that “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effect.” (James 5:16) So, if the Bible teaches us to pray for one another then it would not interfere with Jesus being the one mediator. Since Christians on earth often seek the prayers of fellow Christians so it follows that we should ask those in heaven and thus closer to God to also pray for us. Therefore, the prayers of the saints, who are in heaven and perfectly righteous would be efficacious.
But, one might object, can the saint hear our prayers? Yes, those in heaven can hear our prayers. For instance, Revelation 8:4 tells us that an angel offers our prayers to God, hence, the angel would have to know what our prayers are. Also, Rev 6:9-10 shows the saints praying. Additionally, in 2 Maccabees 15:13-14 Jeremiah prays for the Israelite people after his death. Furthermore, Matt 22:30, Luke 15:10, 1 Cor 15:29 and Hebrews 12:1 all show that those in heaven are aware of what goes on in earth. Further, in Jeremiah 15:1-2 God speaks of the possibility of Moses and Samuel interceding for the people. Another great passage that illustrates the intercession of the saint is Rev 5:8 that tells of the twenty-four elders who held bowls of incense that are the prayers of the people on earth. In essence, yes, saints in heaven are aware of our needs and pray for us.
Saints, therefore, are powerful intercessors for us to God. The Bible portrays them offering our prayers to God and since they are so close to God we know their prayers to be efficacious. In summary, the saints are willing and able to pray for our needs, we merely need to ask them to intercede for us before the throne of God.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I've heard this too but have never seen the scriptural backup for it, so I'm hoping Rev can post it. Our Q&A only posits that the saints in heaven are dead and have no knowledge of what goes on here on earth.

Some personal, fallible thoughts....


I see nothing in Scripture that suggests that we should not care for or pray for other believers...

I see Scriptures that suggest that we SHOULD care for and pray for others, espeically believers....

I see NOTHING in Scriptures that say this is LIMITED to those still alive, AND I see NOTHING in Scriptures that suggest this INCLUDES those now in heaven.

IMHO, that makes it adiaphoron. At WORSE, it MAY be that our Christian brothers and sisters now in Heaven don't care about us, aren't permitted to pray for us, or simply don't know what our needs or requests are. That WORSE CASE situation seems possible, anyway, although Scripture says no such thing. I fail to see what harm is done in this case in requesting their loving, caring petitions on our behalf, no more than if I send you an email asking to pray for me but you don't check your email or don't care about me and my request or lack the faith or willingness or ability to pray and thus those petitions which I requested are not made by you: the "issue" is not on my end. My request to you MIGHT (at worst) be "wasted" - but even here, GOD knows that I sought those prayers. Even in the WORSE case.

Now, before my more learned Lutheran brothers and sisters post to me, I AM aware that the Confessions speak (rather forcefully) AGAINST requesting the sainted to pray for us. And, I abide by that. However, I wonder if the Confessions are "overstepping" things a bit - taking what might more properly be adiaphoron and making it a rule????? I'm NOT saying the Lutheran position is WRONG here only that PERHAPS it would have been better to leave the issue as adiaphoron - an issue where Scripture is without a rule. But perhaps that is an issue for another day and thread, beyond the scope or focus of THIS thread.





.

 

[LilLamb219]

Hmm...praying to someone who has passed makes one play the role of God in thinking we know who is in heaven. I mean, there are many hypocrites who really don't have faith but can sure fake it. Sure, you're not praying to someone who went to hell instead? Just wondering.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Hmm...praying to someone who has passed makes one play the role of God in thinking we know who is in heaven. I mean, there are many hypocrites who really don't have faith but can sure fake it. Sure, you're not praying to someone who went to hell instead? Just wondering.

So, the WORSE case is that the one we desired to pray for us doesn't.
I could send you an email, seeking your prayers, and you don't read it. Does that make me WRONG for seeking your prayers?

And, I think as Lutherans, we OFTEN speak - confidently - of those who are saved. At every Lutheran funeral I've been to. Would you question if Mary is in Heaven, more confident that she is in Hell? My grandfather? But, again, I note your question mark. I was under the impression, in my Lutheran studies, that Lutherans hesitate to make dogma out of question marks - one way or the other - but rather tend to embrace such as adiaphoron. I JUST WONDER (outloud, lol) if that might have been the better position here. We don't KNOW if the saints above love us or care about us - or if they do. We don't KNOW if they can pray to God or if God hears their prayers if they do - or not. We don't KNOW if they are aware of our requests - or if they are. Sounds like adiaphora to me..... But, it seems at least possible to me, that being sainted in heaven, being without sin and without faith being limited and tainted, the saints in heaven may WELL love and care even MORE than the saints still below, and, without sins taint, ARE heard by God. But I think we're all talking possiblities because Scripture just doesn't say. Adiaphoron?




BUT AGAIN, I know what the Confessions say and I abide by that, submitting.



.

 

[RadMan]

So, the WORSE case is that the one we desired to pray for us doesn't.
I could send you an email, seeking your prayers, and you don't read it. Does that make me WRONG for seeking your prayers?

And, I think as Lutherans, we OFTEN speak - confidently - of those who are saved. At every Lutheran funeral I've been to. Would you question if Mary is in Heaven, more confident that she is in Hell? My grandfather? But, again, I note your question mark. I was under the impression, in my Lutheran studies, that Lutherans hesitate to make dogma out of question marks - one way or the other - but rather tend to embrace such as adiaphoron. I JUST WONDER (outloud, lol) if that might have been the better position here. We don't KNOW if the saints above love us or care about us - or if they do. We don't KNOW if they can pray to God or if God hears their prayers if they do - or not. We don't KNOW if they are aware of our requests - or if they are. Sounds like adiaphora to me..... But, it seems at least possible to me, that being sainted in heaven, being without sin and without faith being limited and tainted, the saints in heaven may WELL love and care even MORE than the saints still below, and, without sins taint, ARE heard by God. But I think we're all talking possiblities because Scripture just doesn't say. Adiaphoron?




BUT AGAIN, I know what the Confessions say and I abide by that, submitting.



.

I thought I posted this earlier....Anyway, intercessory prayer by someone alive is different than prayer by someone that is in heaven.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, since Jesus specifically commanded us to pray to "Our Father in Heaven", that to me seems to be enough scriptural proof NOT to pray to saints, even if the edict to not pray to saints isn't found anywhere in scripture.

 

[LilLamb219]

For everyone here, if you were dead, would you truly want someone to pray to you OR to the one true God who grants prayers?! I think I'll put it in my will to not have anyone ever pray TO ME when I'm dead. I'm no one special, but God certainly is.

 

[Tofferer]

Well, since Jesus specifically commanded us to pray to "Our Father in Heaven", that to me seems to be enough scriptural proof NOT to pray to saints, even if the edict to not pray to saints isn't found anywhere in scripture.

I should think that should be enough. If Jesus commands us to pray to God the Father, then we should NOT pray to anyone else.

 

[DaRev]

Show me a scripture where the departed pray for us.

There are passages in Revelation 6 and 7 that allude to this. It's also mentioned in the Apology article XXI.

I fail to see what harm is done in this case in requesting their loving, caring petitions on our behalf,

You see no harm in praying to someone other than the one true God???
That's idolatry, my friend, a violation of the 1st Commandment.

 

[Jim47]

DaRev
We certainly know that the depated saints do pray for us. They don't need to be asked. Besides, in reality, we can't ask them to.

There are passages in Revelation 6 and 7 that allude to this. It's also mentioned in the Apology article XXI.


[/QUOTE]


I'm not making an issue of this, but I just read both chapter 6 & 7 and there is nothing there saying that departed saints pray for us, but as I said, I will not make an issue of it, I'm just standing my ground

 

[DaRev]

I'm not making an issue of this, but I just read both chapter 6 & 7 and there is nothing there saying that departed saints pray for us, but as I said, I will not make an issue of it, I'm just standing my ground

Well, you are making an issue by responding that way.

But, you know more than I do, so...

 

[BabyLutheran]

Rev 5: 8

When the lamb had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.

 

[DD2008]

Romans 10:4-11

[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
[5] Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it.
[6] But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
[7] or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
[8] But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[11] The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."


As a Catholic I was once presented with verses 6-7 of this passage as a text showing our certainty of our saints as presumtion. The Protestant apologist maintained that this was proof that we don't know who will or will not be in heaven because we don't know who believes and who doesn't and by this passage we are told not to even ask the question.

I put the rest of it in context so you can judge for yourselves.

What do you think it means?

 

[Edial]

For everyone here, if you were dead, would you truly want someone to pray to you OR to the one true God who grants prayers?! I think I'll put it in my will to not have anyone ever pray TO ME when I'm dead. I'm no one special, but God certainly is.

I totally agree.
Mary was (and still is) a very humble woman.
In my opinion, when we pray to her we are actually embarassing that great woman of God who would want nothing else, but for us to pray directly to Father as Jesus directed us.

 

[Edial]

Rev 5: 8

When the lamb had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.

This verse is talking about the prayers of ALL the saints (as clarified in Rev. 8:3 ff)

REV 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

So saints in Heaven do pray to God in Heaven.

However, in that instance the prayers are for the destruction of sin on Earth.

Do they pray for us, as Jim asked?

I do not really know one verse that they pray for us.

However, I have evidence that they are quiet interested in the earthly affairs (not CNN or FoxNews ) concerning salvation and judgement of the inhabitants.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Korah]

But we're not trying to diss anyone.
Haven't you noticed here a thread that apparently was not proper nor respectful of the RC and our own TCLers were openly stating that this is not right.
And that thread disappeared.

Ed

I myself started that thread, and with no intent to disparage or be disrespectful of RC.
I myself suggested that the thread be closed.
That does not mean that I agree that the thread should have been "disappeared".
I don't see why you should be so proud of what you guys did.
There seems to be no free speech on TCL. At least not for me.
Korah

 

[Edial]

...
There seems to be no free speech on TCL. At least not for me.
Korah

Korah, this is simply not the case.
You KNOW I personally like you.
And what the mods are doing, let's not talk about it - against the rules.

I'll send you a PM.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I totally agree.
Mary was (and still is) a very humble woman.
In my opinion, when we pray to her we are actually embarassing that great woman of God who would want nothing else, but for us to pray directly to Father as Jesus directed us.

Great post! I feel exactly the same way about Mary. I do place her in high esteem, but I never worship her. For example my favorite canticle is the Magnificat, and I sing it almost daily, yet the canticle is about Mary it is all about Christ. Btw the LSB Magnificat is wonderful! I'm super glad it's in Treasury of Daily Prayer!

 

[RadMan]

Rev 5: 8

When the lamb had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.

The saints are on earth. We're the saints. This is metaphorical anyway.

 

[RadMan]

I myself started that thread, and with no intent to disparage or be disrespectful of RC.
I myself suggested that the thread be closed.
That does not mean that I agree that the thread should have been "disappeared".
I don't see why you should be so proud of what you guys did.
There seems to be no free speech on TCL. At least not for me.
Korah

SO what are you complaining about since you wanted the thread closed anyway?

Are you being contrary just to be contrary? From day one you have come on here and told people they were wrong to their faces. What do you expect when there is no diplomacy.

Even though I don't agree on the rules in this forum I still try to stick to them. I go for more open discussions that are "knock down, drag out". But that ain't gonna happen in here.