Why Not Catholic?

[DD2008]

I think I might join the RCC now. Im just so confused. I read scripture that tells me that alot of what the RCC does is wrong, but then I see that the RCC was the FIRST church, it does not have thousands of seperate branches like the protestant church (it is just 1 church), there are a ton of miracles that show the catholic faith to be correct (the incorruptible bodies of saints, marian apparitions, etc.). Im am SO lost and do not know what to do.

I'm leaving the RCC at the moment For many reasons, but Unam Sanctum is certainly one of them.

Before you make any decisions read the last sentance of Unam Sanctum

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

link: http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

and see if it squares with this from scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-9

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

and

Romans 10:8-11

[8] But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[11] The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."


Unam Sanctum meets the criteria to be an infallible statement. However, an infallible statement can't contradict scripture. This to me proves that the doctrine of infallibility is wrong.

 

[LilLamb219]

I think I might join the RCC now. Im just so confused. I read scripture that tells me that alot of what the RCC does is wrong, but then I see that the RCC was the FIRST church, it does not have thousands of seperate branches like the protestant church (it is just 1 church), there are a ton of miracles that show the catholic faith to be correct (the incorruptible bodies of saints, marian apparitions, etc.). Im am SO lost and do not know what to do.

What do you believe in the way of Jesus Christ being your savior and forgiving your sins? Is it finished? Do you still need to do more for your salvation? Don't look to miracles that might not even be true. Don't look to what other men are saying as others here have said. Look to what the Bible teaches about God, who He is and what He has done for you for your salvation. That's important. That's why I'm Lutheran.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What do you believe in the way of Jesus Christ being your savior and forgiving your sins? Is it finished? Do you still need to do more for your salvation? Don't look to miracles that might not even be true. Don't look to what other men are saying as others here have said. Look to what the Bible teaches about God, who He is and what He has done for you for your salvation. That's important. That's why I'm Lutheran.

This is most certainly true.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think I might join the RCC now. Im just so confused. I read scripture that tells me that alot of what the RCC does is wrong, but then I see that the RCC was the FIRST church, it does not have thousands of seperate branches like the protestant church (it is just 1 church), there are a ton of miracles that show the catholic faith to be correct (the incorruptible bodies of saints, marian apparitions, etc.). Im am SO lost and do not know what to do.

At the risk of oversimplifying things, I'll try and break this down.

Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God. God has revealed himself to us through his Holy Word. Because of this, Scripture is the ultimate authority:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God" John 1:1. All teaching, doctrine, and conduct must be tested and judged by Scripture. Anything that denies, oposes, or changes the meaning of scripture is not of the Chruch. Scripture does not always tell us everything that we want to know (that's what faith is for), but it does tell us everything that we need to know.

Christ is the head of the Church, His Church, not the Pope: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14!

It is Christ's Church; in Matthew 16:17-18 Christ says to St. Peter: "..."Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

What did our Heavenly Father reveal to Peter?: in Matthew 16:15-16 Christ asks Peter "But who do you say that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

The "Rock" upon which Christ builds His Church is not Peter, it is the faith in Christ that Peter, and all believers confess; for without this faith in Christ there is no Church.

The first Bishop of the Church was not St. Peter (historic fact), it's St. James of Jerusalem. The Church as we know it began there, not Rome. However, the Church began much earlier with those who believed Gods promise that he would send a Messiah. The Church goes back to the time of the fall in Eden, where God first promised a savior. Long before there was ever a Bishop of Rome.

There are lots of other remains of people long dead that are well preserved, and they are not all "Saints". Every culture has it's mummies, the Egyptians, Pagan bog-bodies of Northern Europe and England. They can be found in South America, China, Tibet, just about everywhere. I'm a licensed Embalmer and Funeral Director (not currently practicing). I assure you, that with or without chemicals, a body can be prepared in a number of ways that when stored well will remain intact for hundreds and even thousands of years; faithful Saint or barbarian heathen, makes no matter.

Regarding the Marian apparitions; Scripture tells us of Angels (which do not impersonate anyone), and other than a brief appearance by Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, the dead do not appear in this world.

Scripture does however caution us about speaking with the dead because the devil is the "father of lies". Think about it, Mary shows up, shrines are built, people spend hundreds of years discussing what she said and what it means, thousands go on pilgrimages and pray to her when they should be concentrating on the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and praying to him as our intercessor.

There's lots more that I could say, but I think that sums it up.

Pray about it, search Scripture, and the ask that the Holy Spirit will enable you to discern our Lord's will.

I will pray for this for you also.

Your friend in Christ,

Mark

 

[DaRev]

Pastor's wives are a blessing not only to the Pastor, but to the congregation itself.

I need to find me one of them.

 

[DaRev]

Little known fact... St. Peter was bishop of Antioch before he was bishop of Rome.

 

[Korah]

Please show me where Scripture states there is some other source? Scripture says that it is God breathed, wheres your authority of tradition come from? You show me where Scripture says the Pope gets to contradict God breathed Scripture, and I'll be happy to start listening to him.

Actually, L,
Scripture does say that that there is some other source of truth. John 16:13 reads, "When the Spirit of Truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth..."
Most narrowly construed, of course, this promise could be limited to the inspiration and inerrancy of the New Testament that subsequently was written. I don't think that this is what it means, however, because Jesus is also quoted in John 4:23, "But the hour is coming--indeed is already here--when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth..."
Well the NT was not "already here". And the Spirit of Truth by cross-reference here is said to lead us into true worship.
On the other extreme some RC might tell us that the Spirit of Truth was given to the early church fathers (ECF) or Tradition more broadly or to the Infallibility of the Church (especially in ecumenical councils) or the Infallibility of the Pope. None of these relate directly to worship, however, and there is all sort of inconsistency among the ECF, Tradition, the Councils, or the Pope.
I seem to be a minority of one in frankly affirming that Jesus meant what He said, that the Truth will be invested in the worship of the believers. There is of course inconsistency in what has been in worship through the ages and in various places, so the Truth would presumably be found in what has been uniformly taught always and everywhere.
True, the worship throughout the ages is most closely approximated in what the Liturgical Renewal brought about in the worship of the Episcopalians and the Roman Catholics (in the Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine Mass so much). Much Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian worship has absorbed it as well.
True also, the beliefs found universally in worship includes a lot not popular among Lutherans. Many Lutherans (and certainly Luther himself) accept the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and perhaps along with the Eastern Orthodox accept the Assumption (or Dormition) of Mary. But even more than the Eastern Orthodox all Lutherans I know of reject Purgatory even though the universal practice of the Church was to pray for the dead. Maybe Lutheranism needs to reaffirm more of its Catholic roots than it now does.
But notwithstanding that, there is nothing in the early and universal worship of the Church that hints at such specifically RC doctrines as the Infallibility of the Pope or the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Nothing supports medieval RC theology or those doctrines of the Council of Trent that were adopted to repudiate Lutheran understandings of what Catholicism truly teaches.
Korah

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I need to find me one of them.

Rev,

I know this is a bit off topic, (but you started it) but you may have to look outside the Lutheran Church.

The Pastor who married Eileen and I found a wonderful Anglican widow with four children in a small town in Saskatchewan when he was Pastor there. Not only did he get a sweet-heart of a wife, he got 5 converts!

Start looking.

Mark

 

[filosofer]

Sure. If Lutherans have been known as the church of evangelism by birthing, then why not evangelism by marrying?

 

[Giantsbran1227]

At the risk of oversimplifying things, I'll try and break this down.

Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God. God has revealed himself to us through his Holy Word. Because of this, Scripture is the ultimate authority:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God" John 1:1. All teaching, doctrine, and conduct must be tested and judged by Scripture. Anything that denies, oposes, or changes the meaning of scripture is not of the Chruch. Scripture does not always tell us everything that we want to know (that's what faith is for), but it does tell us everything that we need to know.

Christ is the head of the Church, His Church, not the Pope: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14!

It is Christ's Church; in Matthew 16:17-18 Christ says to St. Peter: "..."Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

What did our Heavenly Father reveal to Peter?: in Matthew 16:15-16 Christ asks Peter "But who do you say that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

The "Rock" upon which Christ builds His Church is not Peter, it is the faith in Christ that Peter, and all believers confess; for without this faith in Christ there is no Church.

The first Bishop of the Church was not St. Peter (historic fact), it's St. James of Jerusalem. The Church as we know it began there, not Rome. However, the Church began much earlier with those who believed Gods promise that he would send a Messiah. The Church goes back to the time of the fall in Eden, where God first promised a savior. Long before there was ever a Bishop of Rome.

There are lots of other remains of people long dead that are well preserved, and they are not all "Saints". Every culture has it's mummies, the Egyptians, Pagan bog-bodies of Northern Europe and England. They can be found in South America, China, Tibet, just about everywhere. I'm a licensed Embalmer and Funeral Director (not currently practicing). I assure you, that with or without chemicals, a body can be prepared in a number of ways that when stored well will remain intact for hundreds and even thousands of years; faithful Saint or barbarian heathen, makes no matter.

Regarding the Marian apparitions; Scripture tells us of Angels (which do not impersonate anyone), and other than a brief appearance by Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, the dead do not appear in this world.

Scripture does however caution us about speaking with the dead because the devil is the "father of lies". Think about it, Mary shows up, shrines are built, people spend hundreds of years discussing what she said and what it means, thousands go on pilgrimages and pray to her when they should be concentrating on the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and praying to him as our intercessor.

There's lots more that I could say, but I think that sums it up.

Pray about it, search Scripture, and the ask that the Holy Spirit will enable you to discern our Lord's will.

I will pray for this for you also.

Your friend in Christ,

Mark

That was all I needed to hear. God Bless you and thanks for that post my brother.

 

[DaRev]

Rev,

I know this is a bit off topic, (but you started it) but you may have to look outside the Lutheran Church.

The Pastor who married Eileen and I found a wonderful Anglican widow with four children in a small town in Saskatchewan when he was Pastor there. Not only did he get a sweet-heart of a wife, he got 5 converts!

Start looking.

Mark

That may be what I have to do. Single Lutheran women are hard to find to begin with and they seem to marry outside of their faith.

 

[DD2008]

That may be what I have to do. Single Lutheran women are hard to find to begin with and they seem to marry outside of their faith.

Good luck Rev!

 

[Korah]

Actually, L,
Scripture does say that that there is some other source of truth. John 16:13 reads, "When the Spirit of Truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth..."....
Maybe Lutheranism needs to reaffirm more of its Catholic roots than it now does.
Korah

Nothing I said in my Post #67 was intended to imply that I was looking anywhere besides my current ELCA mooring. Yes, current Episcopalian and RC worship is closer to early Christianity than Lutheran worship, but I have to resoundingly reject the former for believing too little and the latter for believing too much. I can't abide the anti-biblicism of post-2003 Episcopalianism nor the puppy-dog papalism of RC of the last 1000 years.
Korah

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That may be what I have to do. Single Lutheran women are hard to find to begin with and they seem to marry outside of their faith.

Praying for your success!

 

[ricg]

I see that the RCC was the FIRST church, it does not have thousands of seperate branches like the protestant church (it is just 1 church).

The view misconstrues what the Church is: the assembly of all believers, and ties it the RC belief that the church is identified by those in union with the pope, as pointed out above in the comment on Unam Sanctam.

The Church throughout the ages has rejected error. That is what Lutheranism is: a rejection of various errors, some of which persist to this day in the RC church. It is not a break with the continuity of Church or its truth but rather a rejection of error.

Note also that the major sectarian splits were from the pope, not Luther. Were Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans and the Reformed ex-Lutherans?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The view misconstrues what the Church is: the assembly of all believers, and ties it the RC belief that the church is identified by those in union with the pope, as pointed out above in the comment on Unam Sanctam.

The Church throughout the ages has rejected error. That is what Lutheranism is: a rejection of various errors, some of which persist to this day in the RC church. It is not a break with the continuity of Church or its truth but rather a rejection of error.

Note also that the major sectarian splits were from the pope, not Luther. Were Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans and the Reformed ex-Lutherans?

Well put. While we remember the 95 theses, the Augsburg Confession is probably the best summation of what was Structurally wrong (and right also) within the Roman Church. For me, the Presentation of the AC is the true beginning of the restored Church we call Lutheran.

Here's a link: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=3113200

 

[Korah]

Well put. While we remember the 95 theses, the Augsburg Confession is probably the best summation of what was Structurally wrong (and right also) within the Roman Church. For me, the Presentation of the AC is the true beginning of the restored Church we call Lutheran.
Here's a link: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=3113200

Amen
Korah

 

[Giantsbran1227]

Went to the Lutheran church for the first time today and it was GREAT guys. Thanks for the help!

I look forward to getting more involved with the church.

 

[Kotton]

Do you study the Scriptures? If not, why not?

What is the central teaching of Scripture? Justification by grace (alone) through faith (alone) in Christ (alone). Since that is what Scripture clearly teaches, that is what we believe.

No need to fear.





While the "catholic church" has been around since the beginning, it is the Christian Church, and it is the right one. But the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has not been around since the beginning, and it is not right. At the Council of Trent, the RCC declared that if anyone believed that a person is justified by grace through faith alone, then that person is eternally condemned. No council or pope has ever rescinded that statement. So who is right? Scripture or the RCC? They both can't be right.

I would encourage you to read the Book of Concord. It clearly lays out that what we believe, teach, confess is the same as what the "catholic church" (not the RCC) has always taught.

I tried to be RC for 10 years. I failed miserably as I found out I was, horror of horrors, a LCMC person. Why? Because, besides what the RC believes about the Pope and Mary ; I find that their belief is that the Holy Scriptures conveys (much of) the Message of the Church, While Lutheran's believe the Church conveys the message of Holy Scripture. The RC church beleives that since the people who compiled the New Testement were catholic (there was nothing else) that now only the Roman Catholic Church alone can interpret it and they alone have the full gospel message which includes what ever Oral traditions that they choose to believe. Indiviudals can not be guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret Holy Scripture, only the magisterium and the Pope can do that. What ever they decide all members of the RC Chruch must believe. To do otherwise is to reject the Church, which is the same as rejecting Jesus himself.

I also have a real problem with their conception of the relationship of Mary, Jesus' mother (Yes we believe she is the Mother of God) to the Church and to the Holy Trinity. They kind of picture all the saved, the Church and the Saints of the Old Testament singing praises to the Holy Trinity and to Mary. We kind of picture all the saints of the Old and New Testament, including Mary, singing praises to the Holy Trinity. We kind of picture Mary ,up front with David, and Elijia, and Paul and Peter and Martin Luther, leading everyone in the joyous song. We see her as part of the Church not part of the Diety. They describe her as the neck- Jesus is the Head, the Church is the Body. Eventhing goes through Mary, from God to the Church and eveything goes from the Church, through Mary to God, because thats the way He wants it to be.

Lastly, they feel that God felt we needed a family and provided Himself as the Father, Jesus as our Brother and Mary to be our Mother. I am having a hard time finding all the promishes of a Mother in Old or New Testament . I find lots of promishes of a Savior, A Messiah, A King, A Lord, A Priest , A Sacrifice, A Suffering Servant . My need for a Mother I find scarce; but they say it is all in the Oral Tradition which we as heritical Lutheran's have thrown out in arrogance, ignorance and rebellion. Anyway that's what Mrs. Cotton is not RC.

 

[Giantsbran1227]

I am having trouble again. I have found a Lutheran church but I still am confused inside. I just fear that the Catholic church may be right and they truly are the right church. While I don't necessarily agree with things they do based on scripture I have read, I can't ignore all of the marian apparitions, eucharistic miracles, and various other Catholic miracles.

It also makes sense to me that God would only want 1 church. I'm again still very lost.....