Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[PsychoSarah]

Say what?! God spoke to me and so I'm schizophrenic?! Lol. You know, that is very typical of the type of things that I hear from people when speaking about this subject. I think this whole attitude of fear and danger about being led by the Spirit of God was originally designed with the purpose of getting people scared to try to be in contact with God or his Spirit.

Are you scared of God?

When you speak to god, you're religious. When god speaks to you, you are schizophrenic. Even fellow believers wouldn't usually describe speaking with god as hearing a voice as if another person was in the room and talking to you.

-_- that, or you're possibly mistaking your own inner voice for that of a deity.

Note that even in the bible, Yahweh doesn't speak to anyone purely in their head. The deity actually appears before them in some form or another. So, scripture reasons to be concerned as well.

You can actually get a brain scan to help determine what's going on, though. When a schizophrenic person is hearing voices, their brain activity matches that of actually hearing a voice, whereas healthy people praying/speaking to god have areas of the brain associated with language centers be more active, and areas associated with the sense of self become less active.

 

[Divide]

You definitely need a psychological evaluation. Everyone should do one at least once if you ask me.
Hearing a voice in your head that others cant hear is not "having your chit together".

That's funny! I have had one before, when I was younger but I don't need one now. I was fine then and I'm still fine, lol. You're bound and determined to find something wrong with me, huh? We don't even know if anyone else could hear it because I was alone. I was a brat when I was a kid. So they gave me a psychological evaluation and there was nothing wrong with me.

They also IQ tested me and, I'm not quite genius level but they felt the behavior problems were largely boredom because I essentially was in the wrong grade for my level. I was like should have been in a higher grade than I was or something like that. That would be leaning more towards being gifted rather than schizophrenic or whatever you seem to be concerned about. But if believing in an unseen spiritual realm or things which do not adhere 100% to science and all that jazz means that I am a kook, then so be it because I know they're there. The creator of the universe spoke to me personally. So he hasn't ever spoken to you. But that doesn't mean that they're not there. The Matrix was right I think. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes.

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill...? Lol.

 

[Divide]

When you speak to god, you're religious. When god speaks to you, you are schizophrenic. Even fellow believers wouldn't usually describe speaking with god as hearing a voice as if another person was in the room and talking to you.

-_- that, or you're possibly mistaking your own inner voice for that of a deity.

Note that even in the bible, Yahweh doesn't speak to anyone purely in their head. The deity actually appears before them in some form or another. So, scripture reasons to be concerned as well.

Those are indeed man's standards. That is what they want me to believe. I've watched many testimonies on YouTube from fellow Brothers and Sisters that describe the very thing of either a physical manifestation of the Lord and they talk to Him, and others give testimony of God speaking audibly to them. It's important to note that these are the exception and not the rule. We mostly hear from God as the still small inner voice, most people most times. But encounters more than this with the Lord seem to be on the rise. And there's no way that I could have mistaken my inner voice for that of a deity, lol. He interrupted me.

Hey! That's right, It was in my head. Because that is where we hear. If you over there and I'm over here and you speak, I don't hear you over there, I hear you inside my head through my ears...so was it audible or in my head. Either way it was in my head, lol. But it did sound different, very unlike my inner voice and He had a different speech patterns than me. That wasn't me thinking, I think like I talk, but He didn't.

The scriptures? The Lord never spoke and gave instructions to His people without appearing before them? No touch the heart, no spirit to spirit?

My dear Sister, you are mistaken. Perhaps you missed that scripture in Acts 1:2?

Acts 1:2
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:.../

through the Holy Ghost...so...sorry, but He did. And does.

 

[Divide]

Here is the reality about humans.

We can convince ourselves of just about anything, if we have a strong enough psychological need to do so.

I agree with what you wrote, though my perspective of it is likely 180 off from how you meant it, lol. It stands true though, sure enough. Like when I said, I just knew it...and someone gave the uh-uh as if. We've all had those little moments where someone said something somewhere, and it just clicked inside of you and you knew it in the core of your being that that is right, truth. It just rings of truth. It happens to all of us at one time or another so that was a poor response from that poster.

But to address your point I'd say, hmmm, if I didn't hear God (I did!) and was hallucinating instead out of some sort of (Psychological need) as you say...Uhhh, what? What type of psychological need to pray for someone that needs help that I didn't know he needed help could be the source of some hallucination, to make me do something like that? That sounds extreme.

And are you folks forgetting that the man really needed help that day? He confirmed the truth of (my hallucination?!) Lol!! He did need help. He did get help, from a well dressed stranger in a very small tech school where everyone knows everyone. So there's that...

No, I don't buy it Brothers and Sisters. I did not imagine or hallucinate that a Brother in Christ was in dire need of help at the same exact time when he really did need help.

I am not a psychic or anything like that, never have been, never dabbled in it, nothing like that. I believe it to be a ridiculous assumption that I hallucinated the truth of a Brother needing help. That was no coincidence, lol!! You guys crack me up man, lol.

 

[Jjmcubbin]

Say what?! God spoke to me and so I'm schizophrenic?! Lol. You know, that is very typical of the type of things that I hear from people when speaking about this subject. I think this whole attitude of fear and danger about being led by the Spirit of God was originally designed with the purpose of getting people scared to try to be in contact with God or his Spirit.

Are you scared of God?

You might have it. I'm not a psychiatrist yet, but as all doctors say, better safe than sorry.
And no, I'm not scared of god.

Wow, sorry to hear that man. But it has nothing to do with me. I don't hear dead people's voices, it was GOD. And it didn't end badly for anyone. A man who needed help got some help. I hesitate to say that a life was saved, because he prolly would have lived without divine help...but I don't really know for sure. I'm not a doctor and do not know much about diabetes and how dangerous it can be if their blood sugar gets out of wack. Can people die from episodes like that? I dunno. All I know is that He asked me to pray for the man.

So, nah, I don't need any psychological evaluation. I seem to be having my chit together better than most, from what I can tell.

I once chatted with an actual schizophrenic who hold me how it started. It was even milder than yours, just small talk and gossip. It started escalating to be a bit more pronounced, demanding but still talking small talk and was pretty much a conversation. She never realized when the hallucinations became dangerous to her and the people near her. She now regrets not getting treatment earlier.
I really it is dishonest of you to not see a doctor about it, and wave it off. Or maybe you're trolling (more likely).

 

[gaara4158]

We've all had those little moments where someone said something somewhere, and it just clicked inside of you and you knew it in the core of your being that that is right, truth. It just rings of truth. It happens to all of us at one time or another so that was a poor response from that poster.

The only warm and fuzzy bit of truth that should strike you this way is that your brain is extremely fallible and you should be wary of “truths” you can’t support aside from a really strong feeling.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Maybe those people were sick

How do you tell the difference between "hearing voices" in context of being sick or "hearing voices" that are actually real but only you can hear?

So you're reaching pretty far to try and liken me to a mental case

I'm not reaching. I'm just saying: how would you tell the difference?
The vast majority of people that hear voices, are very convinced that they are real, you know?
This is exactly why it is typically difficult to treat... most of them don't want medication or treatment, because they don't think there is anything wrong with them.

So tell me, how do I, as a third party who is not hearing any voices, tell the difference between your claim of hearing voices and the same claim by someone who's psychotic or whatever?

Like any time anyone has ever said that they hear voices and they go kill someone...makes me a mental case because God spoke to me?

1. not all auditory hallucinations involve voices that command killing. In fact, most don't.

2. that these voices are from god, is just what you believe.

3. i know of no instance where it ever turned out "normal" or "actually real" that a person is hearing voices

You're trying awful hard to make me out to be a mental case

I'm not. I'm just saying: hearing voices isn't considered to be a good thing.
Once more: how do you tell the difference between hearing voices as a result of hallucination or hearing voices as a result of an actual undetectable entity speaking to you (and just you)?

I don't hear voices all the time. God spoke to me that one time. It never happened before that, it hasn't happened again after that. If I was a mental case then there would be other indicators.

Not necessarily. And I already explained that hallucinations of that type aren't necessarily connected to psychiatric disorders. There's a whole list of things that can cause such hallucinations. Even simple stress can cause it. A traumatic experience. Exhaustion. An infection in the wrong place. High fever. Drugs (or side-effects thereof).

Each and every one extremely more plausible then an actual undetectable, unsupportable supernatural entity actually talking to you (and just you).

Put yourself in our shoes for a second....
Here we are, knowing for a fact that the human brain is extremely prone to hallucination, with the knowledge of a whole list of things that could cause it..

And there you are, saying that you heared a voice.
What did you expect? That we would just believe you?

Hmm, let's see here. I've never been in trouble, never been to prison, I was married for 26 years to the same girl who has my only kids of anyone in the world, I've been self employed for myself since 1994, I've never been charged with any sort of violent crime, never had a DUI (ever), I've carried a concealed 45 automatic pistol for over thirty years and never had a weapons charge, never been in a fight which ended with cops showing up, never been to any sort of rehab or anything like that...and you think I'm a mental case?!

So, about the same as that person very close to me who all of a sudden ended up in full blown psychosis... Indeed, never hurt a fly etc. Also not while in the psychotic episode. The voices that were heared didn't command to do anything bad either.

It seems you have a very wrong idea about what it is that we are saying. It's also you who said "mental case" - I never said any such thing.

Not every psychiatric patient is a serial killer, you know. In fact, most aren't.

 

[DogmaHunter]

When they find the bottom half of Adam's firmament in Lake Van, Turkey

lol...

Call me when it happens.


Won't be holding my breath, though.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's funny! I have had one before, when I was younger but I don't need one now. I was fine then and I'm still fine, lol.

That person close to me that went into psychosis, was fine before the psychosis as well.
Usually when people become sick, they were healthy before.

You're bound and determined to find something wrong with me, huh?

To be perfectly honest with you.... if you actually heared a voice, then we already kind of found something that is wrong with you.... Or at least, something that was wrong with you, since you say that it just happened that one time.

Once more: actually hearing a voice that only you can hear and which doesn't come from a real live person (or TV / radio / what-have-you), is not normal.

That would be leaning more towards being gifted rather than schizophrenic or whatever you seem to be concerned about.

You managed to get another thing wrong... mental disorders (temporary or otherwise) don't occur more frequently in smarter or dumber people either.

But if believing in an unseen spiritual realm or things which do not adhere 100% to science and all that jazz means that I am a kook, then so be it because I know they're there.

Nobody is talking about beliefs here.
The point is the concept of "hearing voices".

The creator of the universe spoke to me personally.

That is what you believe, yes.

So he hasn't ever spoken to you. But that doesn't mean that they're not there

True. I don't hear the voices of the patient in room 5624 either. Doesn't mean that they're not there either. In fact, they are there. Only "there", is "inside the patients brain".
And they go away with medication.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Because "hearing voices" is generally not considered normal.
And is a known symptom of psychiatric conditions.

To be fair, hearing voices is not that unusual. It is generally not considered to be a psychiatric condition unless it negatively affects the individual's life (or other people's).

When the brain generates narrative streams for vocal expression, subvocalization, or non-vocalised speech, it is processed for comprehension by the same areas that process speech from other people;
it has recently been discovered that a duplicate stream of internally generated speech is sent to higher processing areas to ensure it is treated as internal (self), rather than external (other). There's some evidence that failures of this identification pathway can lead to misattribution of internal speech as external, which means that filtering/suppression of secondary internal narratives doesn't occur, resulting in hearing voices not identified as self saying things that might otherwise not reach consciousness.

The bulk of this speech generation and processing is below conscious awareness, but we can occasionally get a glimpse of its workings when we say something, and on hearing it, realise that it wasn't what we'd intended to say - oops! This indicates that the generation and output of free-flowing speech is mainly delegated to 'background' (Khaneman's System 1) brain processes for output, and is often not checked for quality until after it is spoken (i.e. checked by System 1 input processing, which eventually flags anomalies to System 2 so we become consciously aware of them).

This is not the same thing as having an idea pop into your head unspoken and attributing it to some external source (e.g. a 'God-given' idea, or moral guidance).

 

[Divide]

You might have it. I'm not a psychiatrist yet, but as all doctors say, better safe than sorry.
And no, I'm not scared of god.

Ahh, ok. Now I understand. You're in school to be a psychiatrist. A youngster, and we all know what happens when you give a hammer to a youngster. Everything looks like a nail. Especially when the nail gave you some cognitive dissonance...and when a mans at that age where he knows everything (I was there once) it must've stirred you the wrong way, lol. You'll grow out of that when you get a little older.

I once chatted with an actual schizophrenic who hold me how it started. It was even milder than yours, just small talk and gossip. It started escalating to be a bit more pronounced, demanding but still talking small talk and was pretty much a conversation. She never realized when the hallucinations became dangerous to her and the people near her. She now regrets not getting treatment earlier.
I really it is dishonest of you to not see a doctor about it, and wave it off. Or maybe you're trolling (more likely).

A little regression, perhaps? Did talking like that get you your way when you was a kid? Be a big boy now and forget being passive-aggressive because it wont convince me of anything, I know what happened. Sorry if I upset you, young man, but uh...the truth is the truth.

Milder than mine?! You've diagnosed me over the internet now, lol!? Do you hear how you sound? Dr. Marvin...you can help me. What's the address of your vacation home? I have enough for a bus ticket. You could teach me to sail! I sail...I sail!!

 

[Divide]

How do you tell the difference between "hearing voices" in context of being sick or "hearing voices" that are actually real but only you can hear?

How I should I know? I'm not a doctor. All I know is I was sittin there surfing the internet and our Lord came and told me to pray for a guy. Based on all the armchair psychiatry being tossed around this thread, the indicators seem to be, it a re-curring thing hearing voices with those who are sick. It gets to be more and more I take it, from what's being said. The "voices" typically are telling people to go and hurt someone or kill someone, or even themselves. Plus maybe, how many of these people hearing voices already have on record that they have some sort of disorder already? I just don't see any connection with the circumstances surrounding my incident with others which do display symptoms. Mine was not re-curring and no one ever told me to go hurt somebody or myself...so there's a lot of differences actually.

and you guys seem to be trying hard to keep inserting the phrase...but only I can hear...that must be symptomatic and important to a psychosis diagnosis? So ya'll's trying to attach it, lol! No one knows if someone else could have heard it also had anyone been there besides me. The voices don't come to me at the family BBQ in front of everyone and tell me go slug billy-bob, and no one else hears it...so this can't be attached either.

I'm not reaching. I'm just saying: how would you tell the difference?
The vast majority of people that hear voices, are very convinced that they are real, you know?
This is exactly why it is typically difficult to treat... most of them don't want medication or treatment, because they don't think there is anything wrong with them.

So tell me, how do I, as a third party who is not hearing any voices, tell the difference between your claim of hearing voices and the same claim by someone who's psychotic or whatever?

I guess that's a reasonable question. Well, I would have to conclude that, Since the Lord decided to speak to me, literally, that in effect proves and removes any doubt of if there is a real spiritual realm or not. So there is, and that (to me), by implication means, whoa, ok so the Bible is true, spirits are real, so that there is a spiritual war going on which we're caught in the middle of. That said, maybe those sick people are not lying, but rather maybe they do really hear voices telling them to hurt people too. (If God can talk to me, then evil spirits can also talk to people.) No one can really prove that those people did not hear voices. There may be more interference from dark spirits than we typically realize on this planet? I don't even know for sure. Maybe some of them do imagine it, while some others may be speaking the truth. It seems to me, that one of the keys to this is...just what are the voices telling the people to do? Good? or evil?

We do have to be careful when spirits speak to us. The Bible even says to test the spirits, to see if they are from God. Quite a few people here are trying wishing hoping that the voice that I heard did or will tell me to harm someone, and that just didn't happen in my case. So now what?

Textbook Psychiatry says, if anyone hears a voice that isn't there, then they are psychotic or whatever. There's their standard. All based on what we can see and touch only and based on there is no God.

Now I do like books. I always have and love to read. But not everything is in textbooks. We have our own senses too. Our own eyes, our own ears. Personal experiences teach people things too. But what is to be done when a man's experience disagrees with man's textbooks? Will you believe your own sensory input or believe the textbook and let it set the standard for your beliefs?

I am not knocking books and education. They have lots of good useful correct info. They also obviously, do not have everything right. It is those times that we better be able to think for ourselves and see and hear for ourselves. That's the thing about arguing doctrines and stuff...the man with the experience is not at the mercy of the man with the doctrine. Pay attention, Brother. Learn to trust your own eyes and ears above all else, after all...they could be lying.

 

[bhsmte]

I agree with what you wrote, though my perspective of it is likely 180 off from how you meant it, lol. It stands true though, sure enough. Like when I said, I just knew it...and someone gave the uh-uh as if. We've all had those little moments where someone said something somewhere, and it just clicked inside of you and you knew it in the core of your being that that is right, truth. It just rings of truth. It happens to all of us at one time or another so that was a poor response from that poster.

But to address your point I'd say, hmmm, if I didn't hear God (I did!) and was hallucinating instead out of some sort of (Psychological need) as you say...Uhhh, what? What type of psychological need to pray for someone that needs help that I didn't know he needed help could be the source of some hallucination, to make me do something like that? That sounds extreme.

And are you folks forgetting that the man really needed help that day? He confirmed the truth of (my hallucination?!) Lol!! He did need help. He did get help, from a well dressed stranger in a very small tech school where everyone knows everyone. So there's that...

No, I don't buy it Brothers and Sisters. I did not imagine or hallucinate that a Brother in Christ was in dire need of help at the same exact time when he really did need help.

I am not a psychic or anything like that, never have been, never dabbled in it, nothing like that. I believe it to be a ridiculous assumption that I hallucinated the truth of a Brother needing help. That was no coincidence, lol!! You guys crack me up man, lol.

There are countless faith beliefs in regards to God, that individual people claim to have and many also claim, they are 100% sure there interpretation is correct and they could never be wrong.

As I stated, if we have a deep enough psychological need to convince ourselves of something, the mind will figure out a way to get it done and then form defense mechanisms, to protect the belief.

 

[Divide]

And they go away with medication.

Boy you should be careful with medications. From what I've heard from people, especially the anti-psychotic meds that they give to mental patients are dangerous pills. They start taking them and then if they stop taking them they get suicidal and stuff, start freaking out.

It is dangerous practice to try to cure everything with a pill. Some pills are good and do help, but pills are not the be all end all of any of life's ills. Though based on the television commercials and how hard they all are pushing pills to people it's pretty obvious that they want everyone to be medicated. Big push of medications, and always a huge laundry list of potential bad side effects!

That's not health care Brother. Have you ever read the Hippocratic oath that doctors take? They changed it you know, back in the late 60's, I think. Do me a favor man, go google the old and new Hippocratic oaths, and read them both. It used to be part of the oath...to not give medication (pills!) unless dire circumstances. No wonder they changed it. The new Hippocratic oath reads like almost exactly opposite of what the first one said! Doctoring used to be a much different profession. So nah, you can embrace all prescription medications if you wish to for yourself, but I'm a wee bit cautious what I let doctors give me. I've adjusted my own dosages before too (with my seizure meds) because of the side effects that were undesirable. SO I cut the dose. The doc didn't like it but he doesn't know as much about my case as I do, because I live with it. He actually agreed with me then. He said that's how the entire medical/health care system works...feedback from the patient. Not, you should take a pill!

 

[Jimmy D]

Boy you should be careful with medications. From what I've heard from people, especially the anti-psychotic meds that they give to mental patients are dangerous pills. They start taking them and then if they stop taking them they get suicidal and stuff, start freaking out.

It is dangerous practice to try to cure everything with a pill. Some pills are good and do help, but pills are not the be all end all of any of life's ills. Though based on the television commercials and how hard they all are pushing pills to people it's pretty obvious that they want everyone to be medicated. Big push of medications, and always a huge laundry list of potential bad side effects!

That's not health care Brother. Have you ever read the Hippocratic oath that doctors take? They changed it you know, back in the late 60's, I think. Do me a favor man, go google the old and new Hippocratic oaths, and read them both. It used to be part of the oath...to not give medication (pills!) unless dire circumstances. No wonder they changed it. The new Hippocratic oath reads like almost exactly opposite of what the first one said! Doctoring used to be a much different profession. So nah, you can embrace all prescription medications if you wish to for yourself, but I'm a wee bit cautious what I let doctors give me. I've adjusted my own dosages before too (with my seizure meds) because of the side effects that were undesirable. SO I cut the dose. The doc didn't like it but he doesn't know as much about my case as I do, because I live with it. He actually agreed with me then. He said that's how the entire medical/health care system works...feedback from the patient. Not, you should take a pill!

I've got to say Divide, you've demonstrated quite a lot of patience and manners given the strange turn this thread has taken.

 

[Jjmcubbin]

Ahh, ok. Now I understand. You're in school to be a psychiatrist. A youngster, and we all know what happens when you give a hammer to a youngster. Everything looks like a nail. Especially when the nail gave you some cognitive dissonance...and when a mans at that age where he knows everything (I was there once) it must've stirred you the wrong way, lol. You'll grow out of that when you get a little older.



A little regression, perhaps? Did talking like that get you your way when you was a kid? Be a big boy now and forget being passive-aggressive because it wont convince me of anything, I know what happened. Sorry if I upset you, young man, but uh...the truth is the truth.

Milder than mine?! You've diagnosed me over the internet now, lol!? Do you hear how you sound? Dr. Marvin...you can help me. What's the address of your vacation home? I have enough for a bus ticket. You could teach me to sail! I sail...I sail!!

Out of two options:
I'm in school
I'm in a medical college
You chose the first one. I wonder why.
And I shouldn't have made my comment seem like I was diagnosing you (I'm not even qualified yet). My bad.
Everything else in your reply is based off of your assumption, so I can't really say anything.

 

[Divide]

Out of two options:
I'm in school
I'm in a medical college
You chose the first one. I wonder why.
And I shouldn't have made my comment seem like I was diagnosing you (I'm not even qualified yet). My bad.
Everything else in your reply is based off of your assumption, so I can't really say anything.

I chose the first one? As if they're different? I figured you was in med school, but I call that in school too, you learn there, right?

There's nothing hidden meaning or anything like that. It's the same thing to me, school, college...? I dunno, if you had found a way to be offended over that...sorry. I was just talking. I know you think you're right. I used to think I know everything too. About 25 to 30 years old? As I got older I noticed that I didn't know everything and some things are not like they say it is. But keep paying attention to life and you may spot some weird things too.

 

[gaara4158]

That's funny! I have had one before, when I was younger but I don't need one now. I was fine then and I'm still fine, lol. You're bound and determined to find something wrong with me, huh? We don't even know if anyone else could hear it because I was alone. I was a brat when I was a kid. So they gave me a psychological evaluation and there was nothing wrong with me.

They also IQ tested me and, I'm not quite genius level but they felt the behavior problems were largely boredom because I essentially was in the wrong grade for my level. I was like should have been in a higher grade than I was or something like that. That would be leaning more towards being gifted rather than schizophrenic or whatever you seem to be concerned about. But if believing in an unseen spiritual realm or things which do not adhere 100% to science and all that jazz means that I am a kook, then so be it because I know they're there. The creator of the universe spoke to me personally. So he hasn't ever spoken to you. But that doesn't mean that they're not there. The Matrix was right I think. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes.

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill...? Lol.

Wait, so you’re basing your claim of having a high IQ on a test you took when you were a child? Bro...

 

[Divide]

I've got to say Divide, you've demonstrated quite a lot of patience and manners given the strange turn this thread has taken.

Thanks Brother. I'm tryin, lol. I just think that, we can't expect everyone to know things that they either haven't been taught and never experienced before, so I try to take it in stride and maybe not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] anyone off. If it had not happened to me personally, then I'd likely be skeptical too, but...it did so here we are, lol.

It is amazing to me that while everyone is sort of trying to convince me that I'm sick and need help...and they totally ignore the fact that, what they are essentially saying, is that...I had a mental deficiency which caused me to have a hallucination that I was supposed to pray for a mna that I've never met before...and it turned out to be the truth and was confirmed by the man himself...Now how could that be?

If my "hallucination--i.e., not real" was not real, then why did the man need help that day? Is that some sort of coincidence? Supposed to be? But they don't address that. Instead it's, take a pill bro, you'll feel better...!!!

I think I got a couple of them guys frustrated a little bit, and I know why! Because when they ran this through their mind...it did not add up. It became a cognitive dissonance for them and challenges their life belief system that they have set up for themselves. Hence the frustration for them. Al little bit of projection going on too. (I'm not wrong, you are!). Projection does not establish truth...

 

[Divide]

Oh, I put a mild bad word in that last post and the 'puter changed it to bless and do not curse...sorry guys! I'll try to keep it more clean and diplomatic.