• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TBDude65

Fossil Finder (TM)
Dec 26, 2016
767
565
Tennessee
✟34,419.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Because it proves or disproves the Bible. And the Bible is always presented as evidence for Creationism.
But one extremely critical question is whether or not you accept that failed prophecies disprove the Bible. If you do accept that, then this seems to beg the question as to why you see the Bible as valid on any other topic? If you do not accept that, then it seems contradictory because not accepting this would mean that you only believe that prophecy only proves the Bible as correct (which is inconsistent with the facts).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
And the Bible is always presented as evidence for Creationism.

It may be presented as such but it doesn't mean it is actual evidence. In and of itself, the Bible doesn't really serve as evidence for physical phenomena. Evidence of such needs to be independently corroborated, which isn't the case in reality.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,480
4,520
39
US
✟1,100,739.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
But one extremely critical question is whether or not you accept that failed prophecies disprove the Bible. If you do accept that, then this seems to beg the question as to why you see the Bible as valid on any other topic? If you do not accept that, then it seems contradictory because not accepting this would mean that you only believe that prophecy only proves the Bible as correct (which is inconsistent with the facts).

Well, I have not read all of the Bible so I cannot give a definitive answer to that question. I do believe that the Bible is true and that it has predicted many things. If it has made prophecies that could not come to pass I don't think that necessarily It's proof that it isn't true because we cannot dismiss the parts in which it did provide proof for It's validity.

It may be presented as such but it doesn't mean it is actual evidence. In and of itself, the Bible doesn't really serve as evidence for physical phenomena. Evidence of such needs to be independently corroborated, which isn't the case in reality.

I disagree. The Bible can be presented as evidence for Creationism. To me, there is plenty of evidence for Creationism which is why I believe it and why I don't believe in Evolution. People are free to disagree with me and claim that there is no evidence for Creationism and that Evolution has been 100% proven But, I will always disagree.
 
Upvote 0

TBDude65

Fossil Finder (TM)
Dec 26, 2016
767
565
Tennessee
✟34,419.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Well, I have not read all of the Bible so I cannot give a definitive answer to that question. I do believe that the Bible is true and that it has predicted many things. If it has made prophecies that could not come to pass I don't think that necessarily It's proof that it isn't true because we cannot dismiss the parts in which it did provide proof for It's validity.



I disagree. The Bible can be presented as evidence for Creationism. To me, there is plenty of evidence for Creationism which is why I believe it and why I don't believe in Evolution. People are free to disagree with me and claim that there is no evidence for Creationism and that Evolution has been 100% proven But, I will always disagree.

"If it has made prophecies that could not come to pass I don't think that necessarily It's proof that it isn't true because we cannot dismiss the parts in which it did provide proof for It's validity."

So when it appears to be correct with respect to a prophecy, you conclude it is and that it adds to the validity of the Bible, but when it is incorrect about a prophecy, you conclude that it doesn't say anything about the validity of the Bible one way or the other?

This is special pleading.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,480
4,520
39
US
✟1,100,739.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
"If it has made prophecies that could not come to pass I don't think that necessarily It's proof that it isn't true because we cannot dismiss the parts in which it did provide proof for It's validity."

So when it appears to be correct with respect to a prophecy, you conclude it is and that it adds to the validity of the Bible, but when it is incorrect about a prophecy, you conclude that it doesn't say anything about the validity of the Bible one way or the other?

This is special pleading.

Yes, you are correct.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

TBDude65

Fossil Finder (TM)
Dec 26, 2016
767
565
Tennessee
✟34,419.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, you are correct.
How does such special pleading lead you to beliefs that are likely to be correct if things that should logically disprove it are rejected outright?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
But, the thing is the Bible predicting certain events can make a solid argument for it's validity. Especially when most of the Bible was written before these things were discovered. You're stating that these claims cannot be used as evidence for the Bibles validity. Why?
Because they are demonstrably bogus, just like the Isaiah quote. They are all founded on over-interpretation of vague statements and a profound ignorance of the true history of scientific discovery. Such lists of "claims" are an embarrassment to Christianity



You are correct. Isaiah thought the world was a round disc he didn't have it 100% correct but he still thought the world was round.
You do know the difference between a disc and a sphere don't you? A disc is round and flat like a dinner plate. A sphere is round and three-dimensional like a basketball.
Quite a big achievement because everyone in around 700 BC thought the world was flat and called him crazy.
Did you just make that up? I am aware of no evidence that anyone ridiculed Isaiah for his ideas about the shape of the Earth. As far as we can tell from his writings is ideas about the shape of the Earth were much the same as everybody else's at the time.



Because Evolution isn't real. Simply put. So if Evolution isn't real the only other conclusion is that there has to be a creator.
It's not an "either/or." It is entirely possible that evolution is real and there is a creator. That is certainly my view, and the view of most of my fellow Christians.
Evolutionists claim that Evolution has been 100% proven.
No, they don't.
But, something that hasn't been 100% proven shouldn't be taught in schools as if it has.
Don't worry--it's not taught as if it was "100% proven." It's taught as if it was a scientific theory and scientific theories are never considered to be "100% proven."
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
To me, there is plenty of evidence for Creationism which is why I believe it and why I don't believe in Evolution. People are free to disagree with me and claim that there is no evidence for Creationism and that Evolution has been 100% proven But, I will always disagree.

I don't think anyone has claimed that evolution has been 100% proven. I also don't think there is any actual real evidence for young earth creationism or any intervention by any deity. You say there is some, but I note that no creationist ever seem to actually present any.

Links are nice - but unless the link-provider can explain some specifics, just posting a link to creation.com, for example, and proclaiming 'All kinds of evidence there!' is just a cop out.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
I disagree. The Bible can be presented as evidence for Creationism.

On what basis? That's like saying The Lord of the Rings can be presented as evidence for the existence of Middle Earth.

At best, you could use the Bible as a starting point to develop a hypothesis around creationism, which could then be tested by gathering independent evidence. But the Bible wouldn't be evidence in and of itself.

Or to put it another way: the thing you are trying to prove isn't evidence of the thing you are trying to prove. As others have pointed out, that's just begging the question.
 
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,338
1,559
77
England
✟256,526.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
You are correct. Isaiah thought the world was a round disc he didn't have it 100% correct but he still thought the world was round. Quite a big achievement because everyone in around 700 BC thought the world was flat and called him crazy.

First, a disc is both round and flat. However, the Earth is a sphere, not a disc. Second, Isaiah 40:22 is part of deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40-55), which is 'the work of an anonymous 6th-century BCE author writing during the Exile' - Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia . This date makes it contemporary with the Greek philosopher Pythagoras (ca. 582-500 BCE), who proposed that the Earth is a sphere. It is therefore possible (although I think unlikely) that the writer of Isaiah 40 knew by natural means of Pythagorean ideas about the Earth being spherical.

Because Evolution isn't real. Simply put. So if Evolution isn't real the only other conclusion is that there has to be a creator. Evolutionists claim that Evolution has been 100% proven. But, It's still just a faith based theory just like Creationism. It hasn't been 100% proven at all so why is it even taught in our public schools? I'm not saying that Creationism should be taught in schools (even though I believe it to be the truth) But, something that hasn't been 100% proven shouldn't be taught in schools as if it has. Because, it hasn't. Good that you've at least seen the website and I'm sorry you don't find their evidence valid.

This is all very confused. First, are you saying that something that hasn't been 100% proved shouldn't be taught in schools at all, or only that it should be taught with the proviso that it has not been 100% proved. There wouldn't be much left of the history curriculum if one could teach as history only what has been 100% proved.

Second, scientific theories are based on evidence, not faith. You should know by now that all branches of science are a synthesis of observed facts and of theories that explain the facts; this is as true of gravitation, electromagnetism, thermodynamics and quantum physics as it is of evolution, but I don't see creationists calling these other fields 'faith based theories'.

In what sense do you think that evolution has not been proved? Do you deny the observed facts of biology that constitute the evidence for evolution? Do you accept these facts but deny that they are sufficient evidence for the transmutation of species and the descent of all living things from common ancestors? Or do you reject the current neo-Darwinian theory of evolution and think that an alternative theory, for example non-random mutation or the inheritance of acquired characteristics, explains the facts better?

The fact is that all of the scientific evidence is consistent with the Earth being about 4540 million years old, and with all living things being descendants of a small number of common ancestors that lived 3800 million or more years ago. Presumably, though, you are not saying that there are alternative scientific theories that can explain how the Earth came into existence by natural means within the last 10,000 years and how living things originated in their present form by natural processes from non-living matter. What you want is a miraculous supernatural creation by a god, and, of course, no scientific evidence can disprove such a supernatural creation. It is only in that sense that one can say that creationism is possible and therefore that evolution has not been proved beyond reasonable doubt.
 
Upvote 0

Skreeper

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2017
2,471
2,683
32
Germany
✟91,021.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Evolutionists claim that Evolution has been 100% proven.

That is incorrect. The theory of evolution is simply the best supported theory that explains the diversity of life on this planet. Proof is for mathematical theorems and alcoholic beverages.
But, It's still just a faith based theory just like Creationism.

giphy.gif


No.

It hasn't been 100% proven at all so why is it even taught in our public schools?

Nothing can be proven 100% so this means nothing.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Because Evolution isn't real. Simply put. So if Evolution isn't real the only other conclusion is that there has to be a creator. Evolutionists claim that Evolution has been 100% proven. But, It's still just a faith based theory just like Creationism. It hasn't been 100% proven at all so why is it even taught in our public schools?

Except evolution *is* real. In that it's a legitimate scientific theory, is a cornerstone of the modern biological sciences, and has real world application. Heck, we've reached a point where biotech firms are patenting applied techniques based directly on evolutionary biology.

*That* is why it's taught in schools.

If you've being told it's just a faith, then you have been lied to.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Why isn't this evidence reflected in reality? Even creationists come up across things that seem to contradict the idea of a young Earth.

For example, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR)'s RATE project concluded there is hundreds of millions of years worth of radioactive decay to account for on Earth. Rather that the obvious conclusion that the world is at least hundreds of millions of years old (actually ~4.5 billion years old), they instead are searching for 'alternative' explanations to somehow account for that within only 6000 years ago including potentially arbitrary supernaturalism.

That just seems odd.

This is directly from the RATE report.
----------------------------


RATE The Heat Problem

The RATE group estimates that the heating would have been equal to that produced by about a half billion years of decay at today’s rates. But, it would have been generated over the period of only one year of the Genesis Flood. The heat would have melted the crustal rocks many times over unless there was some mechanism for simultaneously removing it quickly. How did the earth survive such a massive dose of heat without vaporizing the oceans and melting the rocks? How did Noah and his family survive such an environment on the Ark?

A primary piece of Biblical evidence that heat was not a problem is the fact that Noah and his family made it through the year of the Genesis Flood without being cooked! Sometimes we forget the obvious. Or, we choose to ignore the statements of Scripture which can guide our technical considerations. From the simple fact that Noah, his family, and the animals survived and left the Ark at the end of the Genesis Flood we can infer at least one of several possibilities:

• no accelerated decay occurred;

• no large amount of heat was generated by the accelerated decay; and

• God supernaturally protected Noah and his entourage by rapidly removing the large amount of heat that was produced by some unknown mechanism
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Because Evolution isn't real. Simply put.

Let me ask you a question. If evolution isn't real, what do you think the scientists who study it do all day? Sit around playing solitaire on their computers?

Evolutionists claim that Evolution has been 100% proven. But, It's still just a faith based theory just like Creationism. It hasn't been 100% proven at all so why is it even taught in our public schools? I'm not saying that Creationism should be taught in schools (even though I believe it to be the truth) But, something that hasn't been 100% proven shouldn't be taught in schools as if it has. Because, it hasn't. Good that you've at least seen the website and I'm sorry you don't find their evidence valid.

1. No one who knows what they're talking about says evolution has been 100% proven.
2. The main reason for that is because nothing is ever proven in science and there's no such thing as scientific proof.
3. If you're going to make grand pronouncements like "evolution isn't real" then you might want to brush up on your science 101 first.
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟277,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
This is directly from the RATE report.
----------------------------


RATE The Heat Problem

The RATE group estimates that the heating would have been equal to that produced by about a half billion years of decay at today’s rates. But, it would have been generated over the period of only one year of the Genesis Flood. The heat would have melted the crustal rocks many times over unless there was some mechanism for simultaneously removing it quickly. How did the earth survive such a massive dose of heat without vaporizing the oceans and melting the rocks? How did Noah and his family survive such an environment on the Ark?

A primary piece of Biblical evidence that heat was not a problem is the fact that Noah and his family made it through the year of the Genesis Flood without being cooked! Sometimes we forget the obvious. Or, we choose to ignore the statements of Scripture which can guide our technical considerations. From the simple fact that Noah, his family, and the animals survived and left the Ark at the end of the Genesis Flood we can infer at least one of several possibilities:

• no accelerated decay occurred;

• no large amount of heat was generated by the accelerated decay; and

• God supernaturally protected Noah and his entourage by rapidly removing the large amount of heat that was produced by some unknown mechanism

Thanks for that, sometimes it's easy to forget just how ridiculous these rationalizations sound.
 
Upvote 0

HiEv

Active Member
Oct 1, 2017
32
53
53
Northeast
✟23,792.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private

No, they really can't. Neither of your links are based on scientific sources. One is an opinion piece by a non-expert and the other is a YouTube video. The fact is, when you actually do scientific double-blind tests with large sample sizes, you rapidly discover that these wine "experts" are actually pretty bad at what they do:

Wine-tasting: It's Junk Science
the article said:
In 2001 Frédérick Brochet of the University of Bordeaux asked 54 wine experts to test two glasses of wine – one red, one white. Using the typical language of tasters, the panel described the red as "jammy' and commented on its crushed red fruit.

The critics failed to spot that both wines were from the same bottle. The only difference was that one had been coloured red with a flavourless dye.

If experts can't even tell red wine from white wine due to food coloring, then it's pretty unlikely they could tell the age by taste, smell, or appearance.

Regardless, if the Earth was created 10,000-6,000 years ago, with existing plants and animals all created at the same time, we'd expect to find certain things. Those things, regardless of their supernatural source, would be evidence which would support that claim. The fact that we instead find things which all point to a universe and planet that are billions of years old, refute that position.

-----------

As for evidence that creation by God is true, we are surrounded by it.
Open your eyes and your mind to the truth of creation.
Not only the marvels of this planet and its life but also a wonderful universe of ever
revealing complexities.
I do not need to defend creation for it is a given truth, unfortunately not seen nor believed by
those that are blind.

"Evidence is everywhere, you just don't see it" and "you have to believe me by default" aren't evidence or arguments for your side, they're merely assertions that I would have to already believe in order to accept. If someone is disagreeing with you, then obviously they don't accept those assertions, so that's not particularly convincing.

Frankly, I look around and see wondrous things around us too, but I don't simply chalk it all up to some supernatural being, I dig deeper and find an actual explanation. You may see lightning and hear thunder and think that's evidence of a deity, but I understand that it's actually due to charges being built up in the clouds and the charge differential between the clouds and ground causing a giant spark-gap that evens out the charge differential. This release produces a flash of plasma which is the source of the light and sound we observe. It's not magic.

Maybe you too accept that thunder and lightning are a completely natural and scientifically explainable phenomena. But all of the other things you assume are supernatural, all appear to be just as natural as that to us. There has not yet been one single thing found which we understand how it works, and it's based in the supernatural.

So yes, you do indeed need to defend supernatural claims if you expect other people to believe you for rational, objective, evidence-based reasons. So where is your specific objective evidence?

Or you could just go "Nuh-uh!" and not convince anyone that you're right. That's an option.

No actually it is evolutionists who have a hard time defending their myths and fairytales that all this came from nothing because it: could? wanted to? by chance?

You do understand that evolution and the origin of the universe are two different things, right?

You don't have to know how the universe came into existence in order to accept the mountains of evidence all pointing to the fact of evolution and the explanatory power of the theory of evolution.

I don't know how the universe came into existence, and I don't know if it even can be known. But that doesn't change the fact that we have tons of evidence from fossils/geology, physiological similarity, distribution of species, genetics, computer simulations, carbon dating, and other things, all of which point to the validity of evolution and common ancestry.

The day evolutionists can show me some real tangible evidence that can prove the myth of the evolution of life, species and myself, I will show you little green men on Mars.

Define what would count as "evidence" that would convince you of the validity of the theory of evolution and I'll be glad to do my best to supply some, provided that what you ask for is actually something evolution claims would exist and you are specific about it.

So, if, for example, you ask me to show you a cat giving birth to a dog, I'd point out that that would actually be evidence against evolution, since evolution says that that won't happen. Evolution is gradual, made up of many small steps, not a bunch of changes all at once.

If you ask for evidence of evolution from one animal species to another in the last 100 years, then I'll point out that evolution says it would usually take much longer than that for animals. If you ask about life from non-life, then I'd point out that that's abiogenesis, not evolution.

So, please be specific, and make sure you're actually talking about something that's part of biological evolution.

And if I provide your evidence, I won't even ask for your little green men in return. ;)

-----------

Off the top of my head: ocean salinity, something about earth's magnetosphere weakening, polystrate fossils, and a host of other stuff.

The reason why scientists reject these as "evidences" for a young Earth is that they aren't evidence for a young Earth, they're just evidence that creationists don't keep up to date on their science.

The "problem" of ocean salinity was solved decades ago, and was based on a lack of information both about the sources of the oceans' salinity and the fact that the rate of change isn't constant (see here and here). The "problem" of the weakening of the Earth's magnetosphere was solved much the same way and just as long ago, when it was discovered that the magnetosphere weakens, reverses magnetic poles, gets stronger, then weaker again, lather, rinse, repeat, and so on (see here and here), instead of merely weakening at a constant rate. Polystrate fossils most commonly are caused by very rare instances of large amounts of rapid sedimentation, due to flooding or volcanoes, so they aren't a problem either.

Basically, all of these so-called "evidences" for a young Earth are founded upon things that were long ago explained and now fit well within an old Earth model.
 
Upvote 0

Waggles

Acts 2:38
Site Supporter
Feb 7, 2017
768
475
70
South Oz
Visit site
✟134,744.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Widowed
Frankly, I look around and see wondrous things around us too, but I don't simply chalk it all up to some supernatural being, I dig deeper and find an actual explanation.
That's exactly what I did. And having a personal relationship with God the creator of life,
the universe and everything gives me the knowledge and understanding that evolution is
simply unbelief and grasping at straws.
God is real, Darwinism ain't.
 
Last edited:
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟277,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That's exactly what I did. And having a personal relationship with God the creator of life,
the universe and everything gives me the knowledge and understanding that evolution is
simply unbelief and grasping at straws.
God id real, Darwinism ain't.

Are you a YEC?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.