Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[Divide]

A self centered narcissistic misogynist racist who likes chaos and I don’t think it was God who wanted him in power. Hmmm! Hitler won because most German people didn’t vote . Trump grabbed the fundie vote by putting mike pence on the ticket. You don’t have to guess at what Trump is thinking because he has a motor mouth .

Feeling judgmental today are we? lol. That's fine Brother. I wont argue about Trump. But I've come to realize that one can't really express their beliefs here without a dozen what's the proofs, in response. I *think* God prolly did put him in office because of the way it went down, but who knows?

What do have against trump? Oh, wait, you had a list, ok. Lol.

 

[Skreeper]

. I don't give up trying to be a good man to everyone and walk with honor. My dad taught me when I was young...When you stop being better, you stop being good. So I'll keep trying and I will be better tomorrow than I am today.

But I have to ask: "Why?"

You can be a lying raping murderer and you can still be forgiven. It doesn't matter what you do during your life, you can try to be the nicest guy ever or commit mass murder you just have to ask for forgiveness before you die and you end up in heaven.

And that's the most senseless and idiotic system I have ever heard of.

 

[Herman Hedning]

Do you, not believe that people have been raised from the dead. I mean from the dead dead, not just sick?

From what I hear, it happens fairly regularly in Africa. The reason it happens there is that, they have not been indoctrinated against belief like we are in the US. So when they establish faith, they believe what those scriptures say!

No, I don't believe that this happens. Not here, nor in Africa. The real reason that you may see more reports from less developed countries is of course that it can be hard to determine when someone is dead dead. And there is also a possibility of outright fraud.

 

[Divide]

But I have to ask: "Why?"

You can be a lying raping murderer and you can still be forgiven. It doesn't matter what you do during your life, you can try to be the nicest guy ever or commit mass murder you just have to ask for forgiveness before you die and you end up in heaven.

And that's the most senseless and idiotic system I have ever heard of.

Woooow. So you'd rather be one of the world's scumbags instead of being an honorable man?

Uhh, ok I guess. Good luck with that.

 

[Divide]

No, I don't believe that this happens. Not here, nor in Africa. The real reason that you may see more reports from less developed countries is of course that it can be hard to determine when someone is dead dead. And there is also a possibility of outright fraud.

Oh that's right. There hasn't ever been anyone in Africa that can tell if someone has died.

I suppose there is a possibility of outright fraud, in fact, it's pretty much a guarantee.
There's also the possibility of outright stupidity.

 

[Skreeper]

Woooow. So you'd rather be one of the world's scumbags instead of being an honorable man?

Uhh, ok I guess. Good luck with that.

I didn't say that. I just described how utterly flawed the "moral system" under Christianity is.

If Hitler had a death bed conversion then that means he is in heaven. But if I were to die right now as an atheist I'd get a ticket straight to hell.

Does that sound fair or just to you?

 

[dad]

"dad, post: 72512400, member: 98011"]I would tend to agree that it would do that...now. The thing is it was THEN. Not now.
Demonstrate that what you said is accurate

Well, old fossils were not laid down now, but long ago. Not sure how you want that demoed?

Great. In the final stages of the nature change we would land in this nature...hence, a lot of heat would be expected on land and the sea.

Oh? How do you know that? Source?

Because the earliest rocks we can find are from igneous cratons

So?? Is there some reason that creating the world would not leave molten rock material???

I disagree. That is your belief based conception. Try to remember man has not been more than about 10 miles down. Ha.

Seismic waves can determine if something is liquid or solid. Under that much pressure, rock would also have to be hot

Waves cannot tell us what you claim in any way actually. They might tell us that there is something...whether spiritual material, or water, or other liquid, or whatever...that certain types of waves can't penetrate, for example.

That does not mean that it is for the reasons people using surface rules imagine though. If there is more at work down under the earth than usual physical only materials and rules, then all bets are off.

If the inner earth was as you think, and the move happened in this nature, you might have a point.

That happened in this nature. By the way, changing the spin or rotation or axis or orbits of bodies in the solar system could be a feature of the nature change.

Humans and other macrolife (animals and plants) couldn’t live thru disturbances that would drastically change the rate of spin of this planet. A relatively small bolide wiped out most of the dinosaurs

That is religion. Yes there were some impacts. Yes dinos went extinct. However, the big so called crated in Mexico could be a remnant of a fountain of the deep, with the 'impact' going from down to up, for all we know. Unless you can prove otherwise? The theory that it was responible for the extinction of much life on earth is belief based.

After all a lot of debris out there in the solar system exists now, and a lot of craters from falling debris etc etc. Try to remember that the godless little belief based models of the so called science religion are not the only ideas/models.beliefs.

I’m not an atheist

OK, but science is without any belief in God. So whatever your beliefs may be is beside the point.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I never said I was Hindu. Nothing wrong with a good steak, lol.

Seems like my point went straight over your head.
Can't say i'm surprised.

You insinuated that the only reason that I am not a christian, is because I don't "want" to follow biblical rules.

This is the equivalent of saying that you are not a hindu "because you want to continue eating cows".

Rightly so, you laugh at such reasoning. Just like I laugh with yours. It's the exact same logic.

My opinion concerning biblical rules, has nothing whatsoever to do with my unbelief in your religion.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That could very well be brother. It may turn out to be true that God did create the world, then (4.5 billion or 13 billion years, depends who's stuff you read, could be either)

FYI...
earth is 4.5 billion
the universe is some 13.7 billion

...went by and maybe evolution did happen some during that period? I really don't know.

That you don't know, is not a shame at all.
But it is actually known. It did happen. It demonstrably happened. It demonstrably continues to happen. And it demonstrably will continue to happen as long as there are living creatures reproducing with variation and competing with peers over limited resources.

We know. You can know to, if only you would take the time to read and learn (from proper sources).

Not that you have to do that...
But if you choose not to, surely you are not as arrogant as thinking that in your ignorance, you are in any kind of a position to tell those who DID study it, that they are wrong, right?

Ok, your turn...you can't call that psudoscience.

He surely can. Because it is demonstrably so.
There's no such thing as "creation science".

Creationism has been debunked more then a century ago, when the science settled on evolution theory (which replaced creationist nonsense).

Creationism has been discarded ages ago.
Today, it is nothing more or less then a religious doctrine of a certain interpretation of religious texts. It has nothing whatsoever to do with reality, science, evidence, experiment, empiricism,.... There's nothing there except fundamentalist religion.

You don't know like I don't know. You weren't there, I wasn't there. Eh!

We don't have to "be there".
Events of the past leave evidence behind that can be investigated in the present.

When a murder takes place and nobody was around to witness it, is it therefor "unsolvable"? Off course it isn't. People are proven guilty all the time of crimes that nobody else witnessed. Because of evidence. Fingerprints, DNA samples, paper trails, ...

Evolution isn't any different. DNA is inherited by off spring and mutates. Those mutations are past along to off spring as well.

As such, our genome "reads" like a 3.8 billion year old history book.
The same goes for our anatomy etc. We can cross reference with the fossil record, with geographic distribution etc... And it all fits like a glove in context of an evolutionary history. Which makes no sense at all, if we assume that no such evolutionary history exists.

I now suspect that...the truth is likely somewhere between the two extremes of this debate, with portions of each being true...we just don't see how they mesh together yet. Maybe.

No.

All the evidence points towards common ancestry of species. Nothing points to "creation" events (supernatural or otherwise) of full complex multi-cellular organisms.

 

[tas8831]

Women, hummingbirds, and stars.

I mean, do you really think this came from pond slime??

FAIL.

I mean, do you really think we came from dust of the ground via magic speech?


Mere simplistic assertions premised on the juvenile 'argument from awe.


Like I said before - you are not worth the time or effort.

 

[Divide]

I didn't say that. I just described how utterly flawed the "moral system" under Christianity is.

If Hitler had a death bed conversion then that means he is in heaven. But if I were to die right now as an atheist I'd get a ticket straight to hell.

Does that sound fair or just to you?

Oh. Well, it sounded like it. And maybe that little dancing picture of you telegraphed your character to me, not sure.

It does sound just to me, however, I know the Lord very much more than you do, and that understanding of mine did not come overnight, so it's not like I could explain it to you in a way that you could actually receive it. I could explain it to you, but I could not understand it for you, no offense.

Hitler is not in Heaven man...you're being kind of extreme in your thinking there...

 

[Divide]

Seems like my point went straight over your head.
Can't say i'm surprised.

You insinuated that the only reason that I am not a christian, is because I don't "want" to follow biblical rules.

This is the equivalent of saying that you are not a hindu "because you want to continue eating cows".

Rightly so, you laugh at such reasoning. Just like I laugh with yours. It's the exact same logic.

My opinion concerning biblical rules, has nothing whatsoever to do with my unbelief in your religion.

Yeah, I've done said that, that was a bad call.

 

[Divide]

FYI...
earth is 4.5 billion
the universe is some 13.7 billion



That you don't know, is not a shame at all.
But it is actually known. It did happen. It demonstrably happened. It demonstrably continues to happen. And it demonstrably will continue to happen as long as there are living creatures reproducing with variation and competing with peers over limited resources.

We know. You can know to, if only you would take the time to read and learn (from proper sources).

Not that you have to do that...
But if you choose not to, surely you are not as arrogant as thinking that in your ignorance, you are in any kind of a position to tell those who DID study it, that they are wrong, right?



He surely can. Because it is demonstrably so.
There's no such thing as "creation science".

Creationism has been debunked more then a century ago, when the science settled on evolution theory (which replaced creationist nonsense).

Creationism has been discarded ages ago.
Today, it is nothing more or less then a religious doctrine of a certain interpretation of religious texts. It has nothing whatsoever to do with reality, science, evidence, experiment, empiricism,.... There's nothing there except fundamentalist religion.



We don't have to "be there".
Events of the past leave evidence behind that can be investigated in the present.

When a murder takes place and nobody was around to witness it, is it therefor "unsolvable"? Off course it isn't. People are proven guilty all the time of crimes that nobody else witnessed. Because of evidence. Fingerprints, DNA samples, paper trails, ...

Evolution isn't any different. DNA is inherited by off spring and mutates. Those mutations are past along to off spring as well.

As such, our genome "reads" like a 3.8 billion year old history book.
The same goes for our anatomy etc. We can cross reference with the fossil record, with geographic distribution etc... And it all fits like a glove in context of an evolutionary history. Which makes no sense at all, if we assume that no such evolutionary history exists.



No.

All the evidence points towards common ancestry of species. Nothing points to "creation" events (supernatural or otherwise) of full complex multi-cellular organisms.

Uh-huh...alright, so we agree to disagree. I've been trying to speak diplomat, but I guess you aren't into that because you're still being too narrow minded and a little inane in what you say.

You don't know that the world is 4.5 billion years old. Have you been to school about carbon dating and all that, and checked the work for yourself...or do you, take the scientists word for it? You've chosen to put your faith into scientists that you don't know, never met and have no clue how to double check their work. SO how right can you possibly be? You...don't...know.

We will find out one day, but neither one of us have yet.
Maybe evolution is real and did happen...somehow worked into God's plan for His purposes? Neither of us know that. The least you could do, is to acknowledge that.

 

[Skreeper]

Oh. Well, it sounded like it. And maybe that little dancing picture of you telegraphed your character to me, not sure.

It does sound just to me, however, I know the Lord very much more than you do, and that understanding of mine did not come overnight, so it's not like I could explain it to you in a way that you could actually receive it. I could explain it to you, but I could not understand it for you, no offense.

Hitler is not in Heaven man...you're being kind of extreme in your thinking there...

Can a murderer enter heaven, yes or no?

 

[Jjmcubbin]

Uh-huh...alright, so we agree to disagree. I've been trying to speak diplomat, but I guess you aren't into that because you're still being too narrow minded and a little inane in what you say.

You don't know that the world is 4.5 billion years old. Have you been to school about carbon dating and all that, and checked the work for yourself...or do you, take the scientists word for it? You've chosen to put your faith into scientists that you don't know, never met and have no clue how to double check their work. SO how right can you possibly be? You...don't...know.

We will find out one day, but neither one of us have yet.
Maybe evolution is real and did happen...somehow worked into God's plan for His purposes? Neither of us know that. The least you could do, is to acknowledge that.

Do you accept a doctor's prescription? Or do you go and study for about 8 years, become a doctor, see papers, conduct tests and then buy and consume said medicine?
Have you seen the top of Mount everest or bottom of Mariana Trench?
The clocks you use, how do you know it is the real time? Do you make a sundial and check?
What a stupid argument.

 

[Brightmoon]

You don't know that the world is 4.5 billion years old. Have you been to school about carbon dating and all that, and checked the work for yourself...or do you, take the scientists word for it? You've chosen to put your faith into scientists that you don't know, never met and have no clue how to double check their work. SO how right can you possibly be? You...don't...know.

.

you’re right I can’t directly check radiodating but I do see rocks around me . Large crystals in rocks are due to them being older than smaller crystals. Granite forms at a rate that controls crystallization . Large one inch crystals in granite are very old . So if I see a large crystal granite that near the bottom of some geological layers . Simply because it’s 1 got large crystals and 2 at the bottom I’m going to assume that it’s very old . If it’s folded I’m going to assume it’s even older

. I finally figured out what creationists were talking about when they claim that all folds could happen rapidly and show a a young earth . There is a type of ribbonlike fold that happens in soft unconsolidated sediments ( mud or sand) during earthquakes . This is what they’re claiming as how all sedimentary folds happen . Mainly because their religious leaders repeat that nonsense and people who a creationist scientists are dishonest and don’t clear up the error.

 

[Brightmoon]

Here’s what that rapid folding of loose sediments during an earthquake looks like . The iron banded formation rocks were soft sediments when they were formed As you see the other more solid layers weren’t affected by being ribboned as much or they formed chevron folds or domed folds
and these were are solid layers when they were folded 10 Amazing Geological Folds You Should See

 

[dad]

FAIL.

I mean, do you really think we came from dust of the ground via magic speech?

Who is we? You? Marilyn? The baby? The hummingbird? By the way why would it matter what we think, unless we know?

All your time and effort so far has been pleading from ignorance.

 

[dad]

. I finally figured out what creationists were talking about when they claim that all folds could happen rapidly and show a a young earth . There is a type of ribbonlike fold that happens in soft unconsolidated sediments ( mud or sand) during earthquakes . This is what they’re claiming as how all sedimentary folds happen . Mainly because their religious leaders repeat that nonsense and people who a creationist scientists are dishonest and don’t clear up the error.

Nope. Flood geology is quite passe.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Uh-huh...alright, so we agree to disagree.

Sorry, but no. You are just wrong. It is what it is. The science is settled on the matter. Evolution theory is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, success stories in all of science. And I don't just say that, I actually mean it.

I've been trying to speak diplomat, but I guess you aren't into that because you're still being too narrow minded and a little inane in what you say.

You are the one who is arguing against one of the most solid theories in all of science, based on nothing but your religious beliefs, but *I* am the narrow minded one, ha?

You don't know that the world is 4.5 billion years old.

Except that we do. We can date it. What, is the physics / chemistry that underlines radiometric dating techniques yet another science that you wish to deny?

Have you been to school about carbon dating and all that, and checked the work for yourself...

No. I'll leave that upto actual experts who did study all that and who do that for a living.
I'm not arrogant enough to pretend that my uneducated brain about that topic, knows better then them.

I also understand how the scientific process works and I enjoy the fruits of it every single day. So my trust in experts and scientific consensus isn't "faith" either, but rather based on an extremely succesfull track record of achievements and getting accurate answers to questions.

Contrast that with your basis to NOT trust these experts and the process. You don't base that on track records or evidence. You base it on your religious beliefs.

or do you, take the scientists word for it?

Nope. As explained above.
I can know that scientists have a pretty accurate understanding of how atoms work, because nukes explode and nuclear power stations provide homes with energy.

You've chosen to put your faith into scientists that you don't know, never met and have no clue how to double check their work. SO how right can you possibly be? You...don't...know.

As explained above already, this is completely innacurate.
I don't have "faith". I have trust, based on track records of achievements and succes.
That trust isn't blind either. If some scientist comes up with some new idea, and doesn't have any results to show for it, then I'll withhold judgement until such results see the light of day.

Do you have ANY idea how much science would have to be wrong about, if radiometric dating indeed wasn't accurate? It would mean that they have no clue on how atoms work.

Yet nukes explode.

But, off course, radio-metric dating demonstrably DOES work.
Like your denial of evolution, you only deny it because of your a priori religious beliefs.

You have no clue about the science behind it. You only know that you need to deny it, because you have already chosen to religiously believe something else, which isnt compatible with the results of said science. Your denial of said science has thus NOTHING to do with the actual science. You don't even know what the science is that backs radio-metric dating. All you know, is that you have to deny it. Because of what you believe religiously.

We will find out one day, but neither one of us have yet.

Science has already found out. But off course, if you are simply too lazy to study up (and too stubborn/fundamentalistic to consider the idea that what you believe religiously might be wrong), then you'll never know.

Maybe evolution is real and did happen

Not "maybe".
It is and it did.

...somehow worked into God's plan for His purposes? Neither of us know that.

Indeed, we don't know that. Which is why I don't accept it. Because I have no reason to. I require actual reasons, justification, to accept something as correct.

However, as said already, at least such a position doesn't require you to deny extremely solid science, based on nothing but faith-based beliefs.

The least you could do, is to acknowledge that.

I never said otherwise.