Why many native speakers can't pronounce "Nuclear" properly?

IceJad

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Most people don't realise that Australian English is one of the more efficient variations of English. By selectively shortening words we have achieved an incredibly high rate of "information per syllable". There is a suggestion that Australian English be adopted for international military communications based on this 'data per syllable' efficiency along with its inaccessibility to non-English speakers.

(I have an ancient minor in Linguistics and recall reading Labov, Chomsky and Sapir many years ago. I currently have a copy of Wolfram and Schilling on "American English-Dialects and Variation" sitting on my desk. I am an unrepentant word nerd and Spelling Nazi with a casual interest in the history and etymology of English.)


OB

Please you Aussies can't beat us Malaysians in terms of shortening English to achieve an incredibly high rate of "information per syllable". We mastered English so we can butcher it to a whole new level called Manglish.

While you're all still asking like "where is my pen?" and reply like "Here."

We have been asking like "Pen leh?" and reply with "nah".
 
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IceJad

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Its a legitimate difference in dialect. It is not that people from some regions of the US pronounce it incorrectly, rather, it is specific to their accent. Just like how most English people pronounce “China” as “Chiner” and Dinner as “Dinnah” (a dialect feature called Rhoticity, which also features in some American accents of Boston, New York and the South).

Oddly I don't think it is a dialect issue. At least not for the word "Nuclear". With words like China where the "i" is pronounce with "y" I can still understand the origins.

While it might be odd to some listeners, the speaker is just pronouncing "Chi" differently. Unlike Nucular where the "cu" is in no way anywhere adjacent in sound to "cle" in Nuclear.

So to have people deliberately mispronouncing Nuclear with a "cu" is baffling. I believe that sfs & dzheremi have given links that more accurately explain the phenomenon.
 
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The Liturgist

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Oddly I don't think it is a dialect issue. At least not for the word "Nuclear". With words like China where the "i" is pronounce with "y" I can still understand the origins.

While it might be odd to some listeners, the speaker is just pronouncing "Chi" differently. Unlike Nucular where the "cu" is in no way anywhere adjacent in sound to "cle" in Nuclear.

So to have people deliberately mispronouncing Nuclear with a "cu" is baffling. I believe that sfs & dzheremi have given links that more accurately explain the phenomenon.

With all due respect, much damage has been done to English and other languages by people presuming to know what is and is not “correct.”

In this case you are making an argument from standard phonology, to which I would point out that English phonology was not standardized until relatively recently, and furthermore was standardized differently between the US and Canada on the one hand and the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, etc, on the other. And to a large extent the older standardized British phonology, which was effectively replaced in the US by a new system developed by Daniel Webster, seems to contradict phonic principles, for example, centre makes less phonetic sense than center, but if we look at the phonology of other languages, for example, the Turkic languages, or Hungarian, or Portuguese, the reading of “Nuclear” as “Nukular” with an implied extra syllable becomes much less of an oddity. And for that matter, consider the great oddity that words ending in “ough” pose in the English language. Enough is pronounced Enuf, with an implied consonant, whereas Through is pronounced like Threw, and Thorough rhymes with furrow.

It is particularly tempting for a non-English speaker who has learned English on the basis of phonology to pass judgement on forms of English based on apparent contradictions with phonological norms, but a native speaker or one who attains a native level of skill and is well read in English will know that English phonology is spectacularly inconsistent, dialects are spectacularly diverse, there are numerous incidents of dialects inserting syllables or other sounds not indicated phonologically (for example, Canadian raising in words like about), and phonology between languages is even more inconsistent, and while arguably better than most pictographic systems, are still limited and inconsistent, hence the example of the IPA.
 
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Occams Barber

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With all due respect, much damage has been done to English and other languages by people presuming to know what is and is not “correct.”

In this case you are making an argument from standard phonology, to which I would point out that English phonology was not standardized until relatively recently, and furthermore was standardized differently between the US and Canada on the one hand and the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, etc, on the other. And to a large extent the older standardized British phonology, which was effectively replaced in the US by a new system developed by Daniel Webster, seems to contradict phonic principles, for example, centre makes less phonetic sense than center, but if we look at the phonology of other languages, for example, the Turkic languages, or Hungarian, or Portuguese, the reading of “Nuclear” as “Nukular” with an implied extra syllable becomes much less of an oddity. And for that matter, consider the great oddity that words ending in “ough” pose in the English language. Enough is pronounced Enuf, with an implied consonant, whereas Through is pronounced like Threw, and Thorough rhymes with furrow.

It is particularly tempting for a non-English speaker who has learned English on the basis of phonology to pass judgement on forms of English based on apparent contradictions with phonological norms, but a native speaker or one who attains a native level of skill and is well read in English will know that English phonology is spectacularly inconsistent, dialects are spectacularly diverse, there are numerous incidents of dialects inserting syllables or other sounds not indicated phonologically (for example, Canadian raising in words like about), and phonology between languages is even more inconsistent, and while arguably better than most pictographic systems, are still limited and inconsistent, hence the example of the IPA.

I am taking up a collection to fund a new sense of humour to replace the one you appear to have lost somewhere in this discussion.

OB
 
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Lost4words

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I hear it all too often in youtube videos especially American ones. Why can't they pronounce nuclear as just nu-clear instead of the ear grading nu-cu-lar. The word "clear" is in the spelling for the love of the Lord Almighty. Pronounce NU + CLEAR it is that simple.

English is my second language and the second most widely spoken in my country. And let me say I have never heard a single Malaysian pronounce it as nu-cu-lar. It is all nu-clear.

Baffles me to no end.

I pronounce it as 'Woof'
 
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Matt5

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I hear it all too often in youtube videos especially American ones. Why can't they pronounce nuclear as just nu-clear instead of the ear grading nu-cu-lar. The word "clear" is in the spelling for the love of the Lord Almighty. Pronounce NU + CLEAR it is that simple.

English is my second language and the second most widely spoken in my country. And let me say I have never heard a single Malaysian pronounce it as nu-cu-lar. It is all nu-clear.

Baffles me to no end.

If somebody said nu-clear to me, I would wonder if that is some kind of new cleaning product that happens to be clear.
 
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IceJad

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If somebody said nu-clear to me, I would wonder if that is some kind of new cleaning product that happens to be clear.
I hope you are not one of the silo operators. I fear you might mistake a lunch order for a launch order.

You can't be...

Can you be?...

... Please don't be....

Oh Lord, you're aren't you...

Help!!!!!! Someone stop this person!!!!
 
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dzheremi

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Most people don't realise that Australian English is one of the more efficient variations of English. By selectively shortening words we have achieved an incredibly high rate of "information per syllable".

The Australia-shaming part of my reply wasn't serious, but now that it has been brought up, I would think the Singaporeans would have a little something to say about this "information per syllable" idea, and whatever it is that they would say, it would probably end in "lah".

 
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IceJad

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The Australia-shaming part of my reply wasn't serious, but now that it has been brought up, I would think the Singaporeans would have a little something to say about this "information per syllable" idea, and whatever it is that they would say, it would probably end in "lah".


"Lar" or "Lah" is applicable to both Malaysians & Singaporeans. We use to be a single country after all. A very versatile word that can be use to both shorten or lengthen a sentence. Wonders of Manglish and Singlish.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's a pet peeve of mine as well. AND what about when "dining" room is spelled "dinning"? Where did THAT come from?

Dinning room? What? Who even says that? Never in my life have I heard that. I have heard various delightful terms from 19th century hotels, ships and railways, for example, the Dining Salon in ships and hotels, and of course, on railrroads, the Dining Car (more commonly known as the Restaurant Car in Europe, but in the US, Pullman called their dining cars or “diners” Restaurant Cars, and often these had a crew of only one or two chef/waiters and a small menu and existed to provide a meal service for sleeping car passengers on trains that lacked a dining car on all segments (remember that Pullman operated “car lines” where their sleeping cars would be forwarded from one train to another, for example, my railroad historical society has a 1956 Pullman from the Union Pacific’s City of St. Louis, which was used to provide through service from the West Coast to Washington, DC, via St. Louis, bypassing Chicago for a faster connection; this was painted in UP colors so I have no idea who it was forwarded on to, perhaps the Chessie, but before the 1930s, for a few decades every nearly railroad* painted all of their cars in a dark olive green color known as “Pullman Green”, which created the elegant homogenous appearance of American “Heavyweight” stainless steel passenger trains in the Roaring Twenties, when the US passenger rail network was arguably both at its peak, and was also the world leader technologically speaking, with the heaviest, strongest rails of any railroad on the newly electrified Northeast Corridor, the largest number of steel cars for safety in the event of collisions, the largest percentage of automatic couplers (to this day, most European railways except for the broad gauge system of the former Soviet Union rely on manual link and pin couplers and buffers, requiring a trainman to stand between the buffers when coaches are coupled or uncoupled, and manually hook up the couplers, and also the electrical and air brake connections between the coaches, before climbing up and lowering the footplates between the cars; also in the Eastern US and Eastern Canada, most single level passenger trains have level boarding onto their platforms, which most European railways lack, meaning on most trains in Europe you have to step up to board the train or use other means if in a wheelchair; meanwhile out west the hi-level cars such as the Chicago commuter cars and Amtrak Superliners are nearly wheelchair accessible on their lower level, but at the cost of wheelchair-bound passengers not being able to move between carriages).

*except the Pennsylvania (which painted all their cars in a tuscany/burgundy sort of color, the Denver & Rio Grande Western which used yellow at least on their narrow gauge trains (I think the uP used yellow on some trains as well), and the Baltimore & Ohio which used a stately royal blue and white, and even had a train called the Royal Blue (Royal Blue and Gold were also the colors of Wagon Lits in Europe, which was Pullman’s European counterpart and business partner, whereas Mitropa, which took over the operations of Wagon Lits in Germany during the first world war, and DSG (Deutsche Schlaffwagen Gessellschaft, I think), which took over the operations of Mitropa in East Germany after WWII), used a red color not hugely different from that used on the Pennyslvania)
 
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brinny

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Dinning room? What? Who even says that? Never in my life have I heard that. I have heard various delightful terms from 19th century hotels, ships and railways, for example, the Dining Salon in ships and hotels, and of course, on railrroads, the Dining Car (more commonly known as the Restaurant Car in Europe, but in the US, Pullman called their dining cars or “diners” Restaurant Cars, and often these had a crew of only one or two chef/waiters and a small menu and existed to provide a meal service for sleeping car passengers on trains that lacked a dining car on all segments (remember that Pullman operated “car lines” where their sleeping cars would be forwarded from one train to another, for example, my railroad historical society has a 1956 Pullman from the Union Pacific’s City of St. Louis, which was used to provide through service from the West Coast to Washington, DC, via St. Louis, bypassing Chicago for a faster connection; this was painted in UP colors so I have no idea who it was forwarded on to, perhaps the Chessie, but before the 1930s, for a few decades every nearly railroad* painted all of their cars in a dark olive green color known as “Pullman Green”, which created the elegant homogenous appearance of American “Heavyweight” stainless steel passenger trains in the Roaring Twenties, when the US passenger rail network was arguably both at its peak, and was also the world leader technologically speaking, with the heaviest, strongest rails of any railroad on the newly electrified Northeast Corridor, the largest number of steel cars for safety in the event of collisions, the largest percentage of automatic couplers (to this day, most European railways except for the broad gauge system of the former Soviet Union rely on manual link and pin couplers and buffers, requiring a trainman to stand between the buffers when coaches are coupled or uncoupled, and manually hook up the couplers, and also the electrical and air brake connections between the coaches, before climbing up and lowering the footplates between the cars; also in the Eastern US and Eastern Canada, most single level passenger trains have level boarding onto their platforms, which most European railways lack, meaning on most trains in Europe you have to step up to board the train or use other means if in a wheelchair; meanwhile out west the hi-level cars such as the Chicago commuter cars and Amtrak Superliners are nearly wheelchair accessible on their lower level, but at the cost of wheelchair-bound passengers not being able to move between carriages).

*except the Pennsylvania (which painted all their cars in a tuscany/burgundy sort of color, the Denver & Rio Grande Western which used yellow at least on their narrow gauge trains (I think the uP used yellow on some trains as well), and the Baltimore & Ohio which used a stately royal blue and white, and even had a train called the Royal Blue (Royal Blue and Gold were also the colors of Wagon Lits in Europe, which was Pullman’s European counterpart and business partner, whereas Mitropa, which took over the operations of Wagon Lits in Germany during the first world war, and DSG (Deutsche Schlaffwagen Gessellschaft, I think), which took over the operations of Mitropa in East Germany after WWII), used a red color not hugely different from that used on the Pennyslvania)
I had never heard of it either, until a "supervisor" of mine actually SPELLED it that way hahaaaa (and it was deliberate) :p
 
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