Why Jews were made, not Born

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Don't Messianic Jews [Jews converted to Jesus] still practice 8th day circumcision?
I realize a Jew that was circumcised before coming to Christ can't "un-circumcise" themselves, but what about those converted Jews or proselytes still circumcising their male children on the 8th day who are born to them since their conversion?

Does it even matter? I mean, Paul didn't prohibit Jews from practicing their traditions. But it's giving it spiritual credit that is the danger, right?

 

[Dave L]

Don't Messianic Jews [Jews converted to Jesus] still practice 8th day circumcision?
I realize a Jew that was circumcised before coming to Christ can't "un-circumcise" themselves, but what about those converted Jews or proselytes still circumcising their male children on the 8th day who are born to them since their conversion?

This is fairly confusing to me and perhaps my facts aren't right about MJ's?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tands-today-against-the-circumcision.7411038/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-circumcised-christ-shall-profit-me-nothing.8053209/

Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, so it is a dead meaningless ritual. = there are no valid physical Jews today in the biblical sense. Only those with circumcised hearts (believers in Christ).

 

[Dave-W]

Only a spiritual component from among them who accept Jesus will God reattach. Jesus IS Israel in the NT and we are his body. Spiritual body obviously.

You are spouting the devilish lie of replacement theology. I have tried to give you a better perspective, but until God opens your eyes to it, I guess you cannot receive it.

But I tell you, it prevents you from fulfilling your “great commission.” In Romans 11 it says that the gospel came to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Physical Israel.

But if you continue to believe that the physical dependents of Jacob are NOT Israel, that throws the entire concept of the gospel “to the Jew First” on its head.

 

[Dave-W]

Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, so it is a dead meaningless ritual. = there are no valid physical Jews today in the biblical sense. Only those with circumcised hearts (believers in Christ).

Not meaningless according to Galatians:

“He who receives circumcision is obligated to the whole Law.”

 

[Dave L]

You are spouting the devilish lie of replacement theology. I have tried to give you a better perspective, but until God opens your eyes to it, I guess you cannot receive it.

But I tell you, it prevents you from fulfilling your “great commission.” In Romans 11 it says that the gospel came to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Physical Israel.

But if you continue to believe that the physical dependents of Jacob are NOT Israel, that throws the entire concept of the gospel “to the Jew First” on its head.

God did not replace Israel. He broke off unbelievers from it. Paul, the Apostles and thousands of believers remained Israel.

 

[Dave L]

Not meaningless according to Galatians:

“He who receives circumcision is obligated to the whole Law.”

Yes, and is fallen from grace.

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)

 

[LaSorcia]

But, the law applied only to the circumcised.

Not quite true. It applied to the foreigner who chose to live in the land.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/strangers-and-gentiles

 

[Dave-W]

Yes, and is fallen from grace.

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)

So Timothy fell from grace? Paul circ’d him in Acts 16 since he had a Jewish mother.

And as had been said, Us Messianics circ our boys as well.

 

[Dave L]

Not quite true. It applied to the foreigner who chose to live in the land.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/strangers-and-gentiles

“I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:2–3)

 

[Dave L]

So Timothy fell from grace? Paul circ’d him in Acts 16 since he had a Jewish mother.

And as had been said, Us Messianics circ our boys as well.

The Jews tried to kill Paul several times for teaching against Moses. He appeased them by making Timothy look like a Jew. But Paul taught against circumcision many times to his own wounding and imprisonment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Does it even matter? I mean, Paul didn't prohibit Jews from practicing their traditions. But it's giving it spiritual credit that is the danger, right?

If it didn't matter, then circumcision wouldn't be up for debate........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

See my post on Judah and the Jews concerning Luke 16:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-71#post-73166876

vs 23 of this covenantle parable shows "Judah/Judas/Levi" in torments in Hades.
This is perhaps the only place other than Revelation that actually shows someone suffering in Hades like this.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:
23 "And being in torments<931> in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am being pained<3600> in this flame<5395>.'"

The House of Judah was comprised of 3 tribes..Judah, Benjamin[Paul's tribe] and the priestly tribe of Levi. It is the priesthood that is to change.....

 

[Dave-W]

The Jews tried to kill Paul several times for teaching against Moses. He appeased them by making Timothy look like a Jew. But Paul taught against circumcision many times to his own wounding and imprisonment.

No. It w not for teaching against Moses. It was for teaching Jesus.

Read Acts 21. Paul teaching New Covenant believing Jews to abandon Moses was a lie.

 

[Dave L]

No. It was. Not for teaching against Moses. It was for teaching Jesus.

Read Acts 21. Paul teaching New Covenant believing Jews to abandon Moses was a lie.

“Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.” (Acts 6:11)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dave L said: ↑
The Jews tried to kill Paul several times for teaching against Moses. He appeased them by making Timothy look like a Jew. But Paul taught against circumcision many times to his own wounding and imprisonment.

Dave-W said: ↑
No. It was. Not for teaching against Moses. It was for teaching Jesus.

Read Acts 21. Paul teaching New Covenant believing Jews to abandon Moses was a lie

“Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.” (Acts 6:11)

Ya gotta admit, Paul was pretty brave to enter the Temple in Jerusalem, the "Den of Wolves", but duty called...............

Acts 21:
10 And remaining many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 And having come to us and having taken Paul’s belt, having bound his feet and hands, he said, “Thus the Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jews in Jerusalem will bind the man whose belt this is, and will deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”

17 Now of our having arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly.
18 And on the following day, Paul went in with us unto James, and all the elders arrived.

21 Now they have been informed about you, that you teach all Jews among the Gentiles apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise the children nor to walk in the customs.
23 Therefore do this that we say to you. With us there are four men, having a vow on themselves. 24 Having taken these men, be purified with them and bear expense for them, so that they will shave the head, and all will know that of which they have been informed about you is nothing, but you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

27 Now when the seven days were about to be completed, the Jews from Asia, having seen him in the Temple, began stirring up the whole crowd and laid the hands upon him,
28 crying out, “Men, Israelites, help!
This is the man teaching all those everywhere against the people and the Law and this place.
And besides, he has also brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.”

Act 23:14
Who-any coming-toward to the Chief-priests and to the Elders saying "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathemtize/aneqematisamen <332>ourselves
of no yet nothing to taste till which we may be killing Paul.

Live by the curse, die by the curse

Revelation 22:3
and every anathema/katanaqema <2652> not shall be anymore.
And the throne of the God and of the Lamb-kin in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5340106/
Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (ca. A.D. 360) explicitly condemns the veneration of the Sabbath and enjoins working on such a day in order to show a special respect for Sunday:
Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm

Which churches believe this today?
Roman Catholic?
Eastern Orthodox?
Any others?

What does anathema mean in this canon?

.

 

[Dave-W]

“Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.” (Acts 6:11)

And they were either lying or hearing something they wanted to hear.

Paul never taught against Moses. And neither did Jesus.

Tell me - why do you believe the testimony of men who were trying to kill him?

 

[Dave L]

And they were either lying or hearing something they wanted to hear.

Paul never taught against Moses. And neither did Jesus.

Tell me - why do you believe the testimony of men who were trying to kill him?

They tried to kill Paul many times because he taught against circumcision and animal sacrifice saying Christ paid for our sins which meant an end to the Law.

 

[Dave-W]

They tried to kill Paul many times because he taught against circumcision and animal sacrifice saying Christ paid for our sins which meant an end to the Law.

Paul taught against GENTILES being circumcised. He never taught against Jewish believers being circumcised.

He also taught that sin offerings were ineffective. Our Lord’s sacrifice was so much greater in that regard. But AFAICT, he did not teach against other non-sin sacrifices like the thank offering and peace offering.

And in Acts 21 we even see him participating in sin offerings - the ending of the Nazirite vows for himself and 4 other men.

 

[Dave L]

Paul taught against GENTILES being circumcised. He never taught against Jewish believers being circumcised.

He also taught that sin offerings were ineffective. Our Lord’s sacrifice was so much greater in that regard. But AFAICT, he did not teach against other non-sin sacrifices like the thank offering and peace offering.

And in Acts 21 we even see him participating in sin offerings - the ending of the Nazirite vows for himself and 4 other men.

All of the Jews in Paul's audience were already circumcised. But the Apostles did not require it from the gentile converts. In fact, they never mentioned keeping any of the law. Which also meant Jews were not required to keep it either. We are one body in Christ.

The only laws the Apostles required the new converts to keep existed before the Ten Commandments. “But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” (Acts 15:20)

This is not OT Law. If so, it would require returning to the entire Old Covenant. It is NT law that pre-dates the OT. Genesis 9:4 shows abstinence from blood commanded by God to Noah.

Joshua 24:2 shows the idol worship Abraham's ancestors.

So the point being that since similarities exist in the Old Covenant, they do not place us back under the OT.

“As they went through the towns, they passed on the decrees that had been decided on by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the Gentile believers to obey.” (Acts 16:4)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And they were either lying or hearing something they wanted to hear.

Paul never taught against Moses. And neither did Jesus.

Tell me - why do you believe the testimony of men who were trying to kill him?

No one ever claimed Moses broke the Law......

Acts 23:
27 This man having been seized by the Jews and being about to be killed by them, having come up with the troop, I rescued him, having learned that he is a Roman. 28 And resolving to know the charge on account of which they were accusing him, I brought him down to their council,
29 whom I found being accused concerning questions of their Law, but having no accusation worthy of death or of chains.
30 And it having been disclosed to me of a plot that would be against the man, I sent him to you at once, also having instructed the accusers to speak these things against him before you.”

It is all academic now, as 40 yrs after the resurrection of Jesus, they were later to lose both Jerusalem and the Temple in 70ad

John 11:48
If-ever we should be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation.

Revelation 12:
8 And not he is strong, neither Place was found of Them still in the Heaven.

10 And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven:
"Now! became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him,
that was cast the Accuser<2725> of the brothers of us, the one accusing<2723> them in sight of the God of us day and night.