Why Jews were made, not Born

[Dave L]

If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see. Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers, none of whom were related to him. At the time, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision. They called them Hebrews at this point.

God told Abraham that His seed (Christ, according to Paul) would come through Isaac, Abraham’s second son. In time a royal family consisting of twelve tribes developed in Isaac, much like the royal family in the UK. But it was always a mixed multitude based on circumcision. If one of the royal family, or any non-relative was not circumcised, they remained a gentile and were cut off.

When Israel left Egypt in the exodus, they were a mixed multitude of royal family and Israeli citizens. In Esther's day, many Babylonians became Jews when the Jews retaliated against Haman with overwhelming success.

So it was always circumcision and community that made one a Jew (common usage) or a physical member of Israel.

When Jesus arrived, God no longer needed the physical unbelieving nation to preserve the true seed. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, ending the Abrahamic merger of unbelievers with believers, or the physical church state. Only believers, the church, remained as biblical Israel under Christ.

Those Jews who rejected Christ, exist today because of their hatred of him. The believing Jews joined him and remained Israel. The Pharisees take credit for today's Judaism. These are similar to Mormons or any other false religion that dominates a region. In this case the Middle East.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see. Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers, none of whom were related to him. At the time, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision. They called them Hebrews at this point.

I'm not sure on the point you are trying to make. Are you saying females couldn't become Jews in the Old Testament? Circumcision itself didn't make one a Jew anymore than having red hair makes one a carrot. Didn't other nations practice circumcision also? Abraham's other children, like Ishmael, for instance?

Circumcision was just a sign of faith that went with believing in God during the Old Testament times.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not sure on the point you are trying to make. Are you saying females couldn't become Jews in the Old Testament? Circumcision itself didn't make one a Jew anymore than having red hair makes one a carrot. Didn't other nations practice circumcision also? Abraham's other children, like Ishmael, for instance?

Circumcision was just a sign of faith that went with believing in God during the Old Testament times.

Daughters of circumcised Jewish men were included in the community as well as wives of Jewish men. But any boy not circumcised was cut off (excommunicated).

 

[timewerx]

The Pharisees take credit for today's Judaism. These are similar to Mormons or any other false religion that dominates a region. In this case the Middle East.

That is correct, but keep in mind, the core of Judaist teachings, the Torah, is also part of our Bible, the Christian Bible.

The Christian religion is more correctly referred to as the "Judeo-Christian" religion.

The Pharisees also taught the Torah.

 

[Dave L]

That is correct, but keep in mind, the core of Judaist teachings, the Torah, is also part of our Bible, the Christian Bible.

The Christian religion is more correctly referred to as the "Judeo-Christian" religion.

The Pharisees also taught the Torah.

But, those who rejected Christ were excommunicated and circumcision not longer valid. Only those who accepted Jesus remained Israel.

 

[Hazelelponi]

But, those who rejected Christ were excommunicated and circumcision not longer valid. Only those who accepted Jesus remained Israel.

I think people are trying to figure out what is "controversial"..

So far your just discussing basic Christianity 101, although I might have worded some of what your saying differently.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Daughters of circumcised Jewish men were included in the community as well as wives of Jewish men. But any boy not circumcised was cut off (excommunicated).

Eventually, but it started with the parents. Just look at Moses in Exodus 4. God was going to kill Moses for his son's uncircumcision, not the baby who didn't know any better.

Also, your theory disregards the ability of women to become part of Israel without men. Like Rahab and Ruth, for example. I think you make circumcision bigger than it was - just a sign of the faith required. Like baptism is today in many ways.

 

[Dave L]

Eventually, but it started with the parents. Just look at Moses in Exodus 4. God was going to kill Moses for his son's uncircumcision, not the baby who didn't know any better.

Also, your theory disregards the ability of women to become part of Israel without men. Like Rahab and Ruth, for example. I think you make circumcision bigger than it was - just a sign of the faith required. Like baptism is today in many ways.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

Ruth and Rahab became members of Israel by marrying circumcised men.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

So it was important, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all. It was the sign, not the faith which the sign promised.

Ruth and Rahab became members of Israel by marrying circumcised men.

Ruth came back to Israel a widow (i.e. manless), and Rahab likewise joined Israel before marrying.

 

[Dave L]

So it was important, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all. It was the sign, not the faith which the sign promised.

Ruth came back to Israel a widow (i.e. manless), and Rahab likewise joined Israel before marrying.

Being cut off = being a gentile and cursed.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Being cut off = being a gentile and cursed.

Yeah, we get that. But being circumcised was just the start - not the end. For example, women! And then all those non-believers who were circumcised. As I keep saying, circumcision was just a sign of faith - a necessary sign, but a sign.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see. Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers, none of whom were related to him. At the time, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision. They called them Hebrews at this point.

Dave, I think you have some of your facts mixed up. Just talking about the point above about the origin of the Heberws for your own interest. According to the Jewish virtual Library the Hebrew people have their origins from the decendence of Noah's son Shem so the Hebrews did not come from circumcision like your claiming in your post above (Jewish Virtual Library linked). Circumcision was a covenant and shadow law with Abraham and then to his decendence (Israel) pointing to the NEW COVENANT of a new heart by faith.

 

[Dave L]

Yeah, we get that. But being circumcised was just the start - not the end. For example, women! And then all those non-believers who were circumcised. As I keep saying, circumcision was just a sign of faith - a necessary sign, but a sign.

Circumcision made unbelievers physical Jews in the Israeli church state. Only believers were circumcised in heart. God removed the unbelievers at Calvary when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Only believing Israel remained.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I think you have some of your facts mixed up. Just talking about the point above about the origin of the Heberws for your own interest. According to the Jewish virtual Library the Hebrew people have their origins from the decendence of Noah's son Shem so the Hebrews did not come from circumcision like your claiming in your post above (Jewish Virtual Library linked). Circumcision was a covenant and shadow law with Abraham and then to his decendence (Israel) pointing to the NEW COVENANT of a new heart.

This is true, but the Seed of Abraham began with circumcision. And this set them apart from all the other nations that came through Abraham.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

This is true, but the Seed of Abraham began with circumcision. And this set them apart from all the other nations that came through Abraham.

I'm pretty sure lots of other Abrahamic nations also circumcised. Look at Ishmael. Even the Egyptians are said to have practiced it.

Circumcision was a part of being a Jew, but not all of it. If you didn't follow the laws, you'd still be treated as a gentile.

 

[Dave L]

I'm pretty sure lots of other Abrahamic nations also circumcised. Look at Ishmael. Even the Egyptians are said to have practiced it.

Circumcision was a part of being a Jew, but not all of it. If you didn't follow the laws, you'd still be treated as a gentile.

But not under orders from God.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

But not under orders from God.

Which is exactly why circumcision was just the sign, not the only component in being part of Israel.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Those Jews who rejected Christ, exist today because of their hatred of him.

If you just want people to pick apart what your saying then I posit you have made an error when you said the above.

I don't believe Jews today "hate Jesus". Likely not even the majority of those who rejected salvation in HIS day.

People see Biblical prophecy, even today, and have this idea of what it's going to look like fulfilled in RL, even when they themselves are neither prophets nor interpreters of prophetic visions.

So they build up this entire fulfilled prophecy will look like x scenario and end up rejecting anything that is not their preferred scenario. This scenario usually comes from our own desires, case in point is the earthly kingdom the Jews in Jesus's day were so certain their Messiah was supposed to bring. So when He said "My Kingdom is not of this world" among other things they decided HE wasn't the Messiah and nothing He said after that mattered.

It's why they chose Barabbas over Jesus - he was fighting the Roman empire..

So, while the Jews were wrong in their assumptions, and while their hearts were hardened to the truth, I would never go so far as to call it a conscious hatred of their Saviour.

I would say they didn't understand Jesus.. not hate.

I felt no hate toward Jesus before I was saved, I just didn't understand Him and I was Muslim. I don't think you can accuse anyone of flat out hatred. It's a very strong word when most are just clueless.

Its why Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

HE knew their hearts.. and didn't accuse them of anything but ignorance.

 

[Dave L]

If you just want people to pick apart what your saying then I posit you have made an error when you said the above.

I don't believe Jews today "hate Jesus". Likely not even the majority of those who rejected salvation in HIS day.

People see Biblical prophecy, even today, and have this idea of what it's going to look like fulfilled in RL, even when they themselves are neither prophets nor interpreters of prophetic visions.

So they build up this entire fulfilled prophecy will look like x scenario and end up rejecting anything that is not their preferred scenario. This scenario usually comes from our own desires, case in point is the earthly kingdom the Jews in Jesus's day were so certain their Messiah was supposed to bring. So when He said "My Kingdom is not of this world" among other things they decided HE wasn't the Messiah and nothing He said after that mattered.

It's why they chose Barabbas over Jesus - he was fighting the Roman empire..

So, while the Jews were wrong in their assumptions, and while their hearts were hardened to the truth, I would never go so far as to call it a conscious hatred of their Saviour.

I would say they didn't understand Jesus.. not hate.

I felt no hate toward Jesus before I was saved, I just didn't understand Him and I was Muslim. I don't think you can accuse anyone of flat out hatred. It's a very strong word when most are just clueless.

IIts why Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

HE knew their hearts.. and didn't accuse them of anything but ignorance.

Read the Talmud. They hate Jesus with a passion.

 

[Dave L]

Which is exactly why circumcision was just the sign, not the only component in being part of Israel.

Circumcision of the heart made one a member of spiritual Israel. Circumcision of the flesh made unbelievers physical members of Israel whom God broke off after they served their purpose (Romans 11).