Why Jews were made, not Born

[Hazelelponi]

Read the Talmud. They hate Jesus with a passion.

Jesus disagreed with you.. my vote is on Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus disagreed with you.. my vote is on Jesus.

Did the Pharisees love Jesus? They are today's Jews according to their own sources.

 

[Dave-W]

Being cut off = being a gentile and cursed.

Not really. Even if you are cut off, you are still Jewish.

The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. Rom 11.

 

[Dave-W]

Circumcision of the heart made one a member of spiritual Israel.

There is no such thing as a “spiritual Israel.”

New Covenant believers are grafted in to physical Israel. Rom 11.

 

[Dave L]

Not really. Even if you are cut off, you are still Jewish.

The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. Rom 11.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

 

[Dave-W]

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

2 different things.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Did the Pharisees love Jesus? They are today's Jews according to their own sources.

The Pharisees of our day wear the badge of a Christian without having the Spirit of a follower of Christ.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Circumcision of the heart made one a member of spiritual Israel. Circumcision of the flesh made unbelievers physical members of Israel whom God broke off after they served their purpose (Romans 11).

The law was more than just circumcision.

 

[Dave L]

There is no such thing as a “spiritual Israel.”

New Covenant believers are grafted in to physical Israel. Rom 11.

God broke off the physical unbelievers from Israel and will re-attach only those who place their faith in Christ.

“Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people.’” (Acts 3:22–23)

“Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear!” (Romans 11:20)

“And even they—if they do not continue in their unbelief—will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

 

[Dave L]

The law was more than just circumcision.

But, the law applied only to the circumcised.

 

[Dave L]

2 different things.

All the promises = all the promises. They apply only to Biblical Israel (believers in Christ).

 

[Dave-W]

God broke off the physical unbelievers from Israel and will re-attach only those who place their faith in Christ.

You are not understanding the symbology.

The broken branches are STILL ISRAEL. (Cultivated olive) and the grafted in branches are still wild olive (gentile)

If the broken off branches were NOT Israel, Paul would have never called them “enemies of the gospel” while still acknowledging their being Jews, and talking about their ongoing special calling in God.

 

[Dave L]

There is no such thing as a “spiritual Israel.”

New Covenant believers are grafted in to physical Israel. Rom 11.

Faith is spiritual, and believers in Christ are spiritual Israel. God removed unbelieving physical Israel from them in Romans 11.

BTW it's good to fellowship with you even if we disagree.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Being cut off = being a gentile and cursed.

Yeah, we get that. But being circumcised was just the start - not the end. For example, women! And then all those non-believers who were circumcised. As I keep saying, circumcision was just a sign of faith - a necessary sign, but a sign.

Circumcision made unbelievers physical Jews in the Israeli church state. Only believers were circumcised in heart. God removed the unbelievers at Calvary when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Only believing Israel remained.

Don't Messianic Jews [Jews converted to Jesus] still practice 8th day circumcision?
I realize a Jew that was circumcised before coming to Christ can't "un-circumcise" themselves, but what about those converted Jews or proselytes still circumcising their male children on the 8th day who are born to them since their conversion?

This is fairly confusing to me and perhaps my facts aren't right about MJ's?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tands-today-against-the-circumcision.7411038/

Paul in Galatians was quite clear when he confronted Peter about shrinking back from eating with Gentiles, due to the circumcison party, those who we could call, early Messianic Jews. Peter was not in line with the truth of the gospel. Peter previously learned that God did not want the law of Moses any more, as per Peter’s vision of the sheet in Acts 10, and Peter’s speech in Jerusalem confirmed it.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-circumcised-christ-shall-profit-me-nothing.8053209/

Galatians 5:2-4 seems to be saying to me that Christ shall profit me nothing if I am circumcised. I keep reading these verses over and over and it seems that the scripture is declaring that because I am circumcised, all the benefits of the New Testament don't apply to me.

Of course, there are no uncircumcised Jews, so this would seem to be cutting out God's chosen people from His plan of grace and salvation in Christ. I keep reading, If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

It might also be cutting out certain Gentiles who have gone deeper with the Lord to be circumcised of heart. See Romans 2:26,28-29, Colossians 2:11.

But again, there are no uncircumcised Jews, so Romans 1:16 tells me that someone who is circumcised can indeed partake of salvation. I don't believe it is saying he can partake of salvation apart from Christ profiting him something.

So, I thought about it and as I was thinking my eyes fell on Galatians 5:18, But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Because I was also focusing on Galatians 5:3, For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

And in Galatians 5:6 and 6:15, we find that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creature, and faith which worketh by love.

But I continued to be stuck on Galatians 5:2-4.

Galatians 5:18 brought the closure I needed. If I am led of the Spirit, I am not under the law, that is, I am not condemned for not fully keeping it. But I will walk in love which is the fulfilling of the law. Of course, 1 John 5:2-3 tells us that the love of God in me towards His children means that I will keep His commandments. It raises the question, Is God the God only of the New Testament? Or is He also the God of the Old? What commandments are we to keep? Doesn't love mean that we keep the Old Testament law if we are circumcised of heart or in the physical?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

But, the law applied only to the circumcised.

Some laws were for the alien - possibly not circumcised. Some were for women - definitely not circumcised.

 

[Dave-W]

All the promises = all the promises. They apply only to Biblical Israel (believers in Christ).

Not so. In Corinthians Paul is talking about New Covenant promises to believers. That is NOT the same as promises made to physical Israel in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants.

 

[Dave L]

You are not understanding the symbology.

The broken branches are STILL ISRAEL. (Cultivated olive) and the grafted in branches are still wild olive (gentile)

If the broken off branches were NOT Israel, Paul would have never called them “enemies of the gospel” while still acknowledging their being Jews, and talking about their ongoing special calling in God.

Only a spiritual component from among them who accept Jesus will God reattach. Jesus IS Israel in the NT and we are his body. Spiritual body obviously.

 

[Dave L]

Not so. In Corinthians Paul is talking about New Covenant promises to believers. That is NOT the same as promises made to physical Israel in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants.

All = All

 

[Dave-W]

Some laws were for the alien - possibly not circumcised. Some were for women - definitely not circumcised.

The laws of the Ger - the non-Israelites - were only to those who lived among the Jews.

But there are also the Noachide laws, which were to apply to all mankind. But the biblical support (esp in the OT) is scarce.

 

[Dave L]

Some laws were for the alien - possibly not circumcised. Some were for women - definitely not circumcised.

Only those God brought from Egypt and their circumcised lineage.