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Why Islam is not Christian

MoonlessNight

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What do you mean they consider themselves true heirs to the Christian tradition?

Simply that they claim that Jesus and the disciples existed, but followed the way of Islam, and thus that they are following a continuation of what Jesus taught.

It is similar to how Christianity is the true heir of the traditions of Abraham, Israel, Moses, etc. (even though a modern Jew might object to the notion).

Note that I am not saying that they are the heirs, only that they claim they are such. They are pretenders to the throne. But all heretics make false claims.
 
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Michie

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They also believe Jesus will return as a Muslim
Warrior. They see him only as a prophet. Lesser than Mohammed of course. But he will return to kill infidels. Look, it us no wonder people like me are dumbfounded by what the CCC says concerning Islam. I mean they are concerned with depictions of Mohammed but look at what they have done to Jesus. It is not a religion of truth and goodness from my perspective. This does not demean it's followers but it does explain why I think the religion is basically blasphemous.
Simply that they claim that Jesus and the disciples existed, but followed the way of Islam, and thus that they are following a continuation of what Jesus taught.

It is similar to how Christianity is the true heir of the traditions of Abraham, Israel, Moses, etc. (even though a modern Jew might object to the notion).

Note that I am not saying that they are the heirs, only that they claim they are such. They are pretenders to the throne. But all heretics make false claims.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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While Mohammad was certainly not Christian, he was familiar with some form of Christianity and incorporated elements of it into his new religion.
Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. That's why I think it makes no sense to say that it's derived from Christianity in any way shape or form. They say that they believe in a "Jesus," but it's a different one than ours. It's the same with every other person in the Holy Bible, they use the same names, but it's a totally different set of people.
 
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Michie

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You cannot believe in Jesus and strip him of his divinity, his sacrifice and his identity. It is not the same.
Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. That's why I think it makes no sense to say that it's derived from Christianity in any way shape or form. They say that they believe in a "Jesus," but it's a different one than ours.
 
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MoonlessNight

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They also believe Jesus will return as a Muslim
Warrior. They see him only as a prophet. Lesser than Mohammed of course. But he will return to kill infidels. Look, it us no wonder people like me are dumbfounded by what the CCC says concerning Islam. I mean they are concerned with depictions of Mohammed but look at what they have done to Jesus. It is not a religion of truth and goodness from my perspective. This does not demean it's followers but it does explain why I think the religion is basically blasphemous.

I think we are talking past each other. I need to stress, when I say that something is a heresy I am not trying to suggest that it is "not so bad." In fact, in many ways that makes things worse. For as Jesus said:

Matthew 11:21-24 said:
21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.

24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

That is, those who have seen the truth and rejected it will be worse off than those who never saw it in the first place. And if they reject it firmly, so much the worse for them.

Now let's see the CCC's statement on Muslims:

CCC 841 said:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."3

Note that it says that they will be judged, but not how they will be judged. It says that they worship the Creator, but not that they are unmistaken in their impressions of Him. That they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, but not that they are correct in how they follow Abraham. The only thing that I find potentially objectionable is the phrase "in the first place" which could merely mean that they are the most prominent non-Christian group which claims to follow Abraham, which is certainly true, but could also mean that they have a special place of honor among the religions, which is more questionable.
 
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Armoured

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They say that they believe in a "Jesus," but it's a different one than ours. It's the same with every other person in the Holy Bible, they use the same names, but it's a totally different set of people.
Sooooo... there were two Abrahams, Jesuses et al going about doing remarkably similar things, at similar times, in the same region, completely unknown to each other?

Sure, why not?
 
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MoonlessNight

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Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. That's why I think it makes no sense to say that it's derived from Christianity in any way shape or form.

Just monotheistic belief is enough to distinguish Islam and Christianity from most other world religions. Adding in that God is the creator of all things, that He is truth, goodness and so on, and you have considerably more overlap. Again, I am not really saying this to praise Islam, but I am noting the commonalities.

You cannot believe in Jesus and strip him of his divinity, his sacrifice and his identity. It is not the same.

Arianism did much to strip Jesus of his divinity (making Him a created being), but it is one of the most famous Christian heresies. If Arianism is not a heresy, there are no heresies.

I honestly don't get the impression that seems to run through this thread that being a heretic is somehow a good thing, or at least preferable to being a heathen. That's not the way it's generally been viewed.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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An important test case for considering whether Islam is a Christian heresy is to consider whether Mormonism can be called a Christian heresy. Both profess all sorts of doctrine which is completely incompatible with any common Christian teaching, but at the same time both have their roots in Christian thought. Without the Bible there would be no Quran and no Book of Mormon.

The sticking point for me is whether we must consider followers of a Christian heresy Christians. At first it might seem like we obviously should, but imagine a world where the Gnostic heresy had not been quashed and was still a major part of today's world. Its doctrines were incompatible with Christianity and if they had been allowed to develop further would almost certainly have moved further from their source, to the point where it would be absurd to call a modern Gnostic a Christian. Yet at the same time Gnosticism has always been considered a heresy of Christianity. It is in this sense that we can consider Islam (or Mormonism for that matter) a heresy.

A heresy is marked by its perversion of its source, and in particular the way that it attacks the doctrine as a whole by emphasizing or increasing special features. The word "heresy" even is derived from the word for "choice;" a heresy "choose" part of the truth to destroy the rest. So the gnostic heresy choose the truth that our spiritual concerns should be foremost, but distorted this into a teaching that the material world was evil (eventually even calling God, or at least actions of God, evil). Similarly Pelagianism took the truth that the free will was good and distorted that into saying that it was so good that man did not God's aid, Donatism took the truth that we should strive to be saints and distorted that into a requirement that the Church be run entirely by saints, Arianism took the truth that God created all things and that Jesus was a man and distorted that into a teaching that Jesus was a created being, and so on. After the distortion what remains often does not resemble where it started from.

Islam chiefly differs from its emphasis of God's supremacy. It is true that God is supreme over all and has authority over all, but Islam cannot bear anything which even seems to question God's authority (even if it does not). So they cannot allow that God took the form of a slave, because such a form would not be fitting for such a supreme being. But at the same time, they cannot consider the hypothetical question of whether God could do evil in principle (but in practice does not), and avoid it by saying that whatever God does is good simply because God does it. Likewise there has never been the support for applying reason to theology, because to suggest that God could be understood even partially by human reason would be to bind Him to it (at least from the perspective of Islam). There is even a resistance to allowing there to be secondary causes in the world, because that would deny God the opportunity to be the only cause of all (and thus the teaching of occasionalism took root). All of these things initially seem disparate, but they have their origin in a single twist of Christian doctrine.

Saying that Islam is a Christian heresy is not really doing it much in the way of favors. In fact, if it is, it is more blameworthy for them to be ignorant of the truth, as compared to practitioners of wholly separate religions. From what little Chinese history I know, it would not surprise me to learn that Confucianism was far more receptive to Christianity, despite having fully distinct origins. I would also say that it does not necessarily mean that they are closer to Christianity or more receptive towards it: it is a statement of origins, not of current or future locations. There are times when Islam had some possibility of reconciling itself with Christianity, especially when it takes philosophy and reason seriously (such as the time of Avicenna). But due to its core nature it cannot bear such trends for long and in the long run will likely remain a bitter enemy of Christianity.
I'd have to look it up, but I think Joseph Smith at least started out as a Christian before he founded Mormonism. But Muhammad wasn't even a Christian to begin with.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I'd have to look it up, but I think Joseph Smith at least started out as a Christian before he founded Mormonism. But Muhammad wasn't even a Christian to begin with.

While details of his life are almost impossible to come by due to interference by scientologists, it seems like that L Ron Hubbard had an at least nominal Christian upbringing. Does this automatically make scientology a Christian heresy?

It seems to me that the problem we are having in this thread is that we are debating whether something is a heresy without a common definition of heresy. Thus there is a lot of talking past each other.
 
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Rhamiel

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Sooooo... there were two Abrahams, Jesuses et al going about doing remarkably similar things, at similar times, in the same region, completely unknown to each other?

Sure, why not?

no, there were not two Jesuses
it is that Islam tells a false narrative about Jesus

think of it something like the novel "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"
is it about Abraham Lincoln? when the character in the story has different motivations, does different things, has entire speeches and conversations made up, and interacts with characters who are wholly fictional
at what point does a story turn from a true story with some inaccuracies in it to a fictional account?
 
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LivingWordUnity

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no, there were not two Jesuses
it is that Islam tells a false narrative about Jesus

think of it something like the novel "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"
is it about Abraham Lincoln? when the character in the story has different motivations, does different things, has entire speeches and conversations made up, and interacts with characters who are wholly fictional
at what point does a story turn from a true story with some inaccuracies in it to a fictional account?
That's a good analogy for it.
 
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Armoured

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no, there were not two Jesuses
it is that Islam tells a false narrative about Jesus

think of it something like the novel "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"
is it about Abraham Lincoln? when the character in the story has different motivations, does different things, has entire speeches and conversations made up, and interacts with characters who are wholly fictional
at what point does a story turn from a true story with some inaccuracies in it to a fictional account?
Tell it to the guy who claimed "but it's a totally different set of people."
 
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MoonlessNight

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I think another matter which makes this issue thornier is the way that things have been emphasized in the world at large. It is possible for something to be true and at the same time to easily be misinterpreted as implying things which are not true.

For another, related, example: I think it is generally agreed that it God will be merciful to those who have not had the chance to hear the Gospel through no fault of their own, though there have been disagreements over whether this means that they can be saved, or if they will be in Limbo, and if either is true how easy it is to obtain such an end (so that the specifics are in debate). But we can say with certainty that God is merciful to all, including non-Christians. And there is nothing objectionable about this truth in and of itself.

However, we can imagine (and maybe some of us don't have to imagine) hearing this message week after week after week, without any counterweight message which stresses the importance of the Church, the good news of Christ, or anything else to show why one should be Christian rather than non-Christian. And in that environment it is easy to think that one may as well not be Christian, since God will be merciful anyway. Something false has been taken as the conclusion of something true, because important truths were omitted creating the wrong context.

If we are addressing the public at large, it is important to consider such things and perhaps avoid discussing certain truths until the proper context can be formed. But in a small forum like this, I think that we can instead strive to be precise and correct any misconceptions as they occur, rather than being worried about how a post might be misinterpreted in the future.

So specifically, it may seem that describing Islam as a Christian heresy means that Islam is close to Christianity and friendly towards it, if that is heard without any other discussion of Islam and Christianity, but in the proper context it doesn't suggest that.
 
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Rhamiel

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I think looking at Islams belief in "Jesus" as the weakest connection between our two religions

we can look at the concept of the Fall of Mankind
hope for a coming Messiah
belief in the concept of Sacred Texts and Prophets
encouragement of fasting, almsgiving, pilgrimages, prayer

in Sufism (a sect within Islam) we can see notions of being spiritually connected to God (similar but not exact as the Christian concept of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit)

in general, with the firm denial of the Trinity and the use of dietary laws, I think Islam is closer to Judaism then Christianity

so yes, Islam is not Christian
but we do have some things in common
it would be foolish to over exaggerate the commonality
just as it would be foolish to deny any commonality
 
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MoonlessNight

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no, there were not two Jesuses
it is that Islam tells a false narrative about Jesus

think of it something like the novel "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"
is it about Abraham Lincoln? when the character in the story has different motivations, does different things, has entire speeches and conversations made up, and interacts with characters who are wholly fictional
at what point does a story turn from a true story with some inaccuracies in it to a fictional account?

This is how I would view the Muslim position towards God. In some versions of Islam, the picture they have of God may be more inaccurate than the picture one would get of Abraham Lincoln from Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, but it is an inaccurate picture of the same God.

In terms of what makes a story true or fictional: it is true to the extent it is true, and fictional to the extent it is fictional. That is, if an account of Lincoln is accurate except for claiming he made some offhand remark that he did not, then it is fictional with respect to that remark but otherwise truthful. On the contrary, while I have not read Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, I am sure that it does contain some truth statements about him (in particular, that he was president in the nineteenth century) and in those details it is truthful.

The terms "true story" and "fictional account" have more to do with the intent of the author than the overall accuracy. There are "true stories" which are mistakenly inaccurate and "fictional accounts" which coincidentally end up describing real events.

A story about Abraham Lincoln would stop being "about" the president if it made it clear that the character was a different person (such as by having a story in the future with a person named after the president, but not actually the president), or if the story made no attempt to identify the character with the president and had nothing in common with him beyond the name.
 
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bill5

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Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions.
As others have pointed out, hardly. But it is a religion with sharp distinctions from Christianity in various ways, including the most important ones, ie Jesus' divinity, etc. Beyond that, tbh I don't get the flap over whether Islam is "Christian heresy" or not. Unless you're doing a case study on the word "heresy," it seems rather pedantic to me.
 
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