Why is there no evidence that Jesus baptised with immersion in water?

BNR32FAN

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Clearly John made a distinction between his water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This baptism would first occur on the day of Pentecost and spread to all who believe. Though some denominations claim that John's baptism of water saves, it is actually Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit that brings us into His Kingdom. His baptism has nothing to do with physical water and everything to do with living waters.
Blessings.

Im not convinced that the disciples hadn’t received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. I believe they already had received the Holy Spirit and that at Pentecost they had received the gift of tongues enabling them to speak in different languages so that they could spread the gospel. Jesus said that they already knew the Holy Spirit and that He abides with them in John 14. He also says that the Holy Spirit will be in them. So I think it’s interesting that the Holy Spirit will remain with them and will later be in them. I think perhaps being “in them” could mean that He will be working thru them.

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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That is the general notion of John's baptism. Scripture does not really tell us what phrasing he was using. Most likely he was using a Jewish, maybe Essene, formula. He would not have been using a Trinitarian formula since the Trinity had not been revealed. It is only with the Great Commission that the disciples are given full instructions for the Christian baptism.

Yes I think perhaps that was the case.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Yes I think perhaps that was the case.

Just thinking about this further is that we don't know how long John proclaiming his message. As the son of a priest, he probably would have had a decent education in Judaism. It had to have been for some time though, maybe even a few years for him to attract the notice of Herod Antipas and other authorities. He also had a number of followers as noted by Scripture. He knew he was simply preparing the way for Jesus so by the time Jesus starts his public ministry, Jesus had a natural base of followers and people open to His message. So if John had been baptizing for a couple of years, people would have been baptized by him, traveled elsewhere and would not be familiar with the Christian movement. They might have known that there was more to come but that would be about it. Once the apostles are now actively baptizing and preaching, they find these former followers of John and simply bring them into the faith with a Trinitarian baptism.
 
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zoidar

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We know that Jesus himself was baptised by immersion in water (Matthew 3).

John the Baptist preached that "one would come after who would baptise with spirit and fire", however, Jesus does not appear to have baptised anyone via immersion in water and yet, the apostles clearly did this long after the cross.

I am also querying the relationship between Christian baptisms, the sanctuary service, and Jesus as both our sacrificial lamb and high priest (i feel that there is a link i the sanctuary services that explains why Jesus did not baptise in water)

If the baptism via immersion as performed by John the Baptist was an important ritual, what happened as a result of a break in the timeline between the death of John the Baptist, and the Day of Pentecost approx 7 weeks after Jesus crucifixion? (John died quite some time before Jesus did so if baptism by immersion in water is crucial in salvation, what happened immediately after John the baptist died as there is no record of any further water baptisms until the apostles)

I don't think it matters if it's immersion or pour on. I'm sure a few drops of water would be enough in a place where there are limited water resources.

“But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water. But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; And if thou art not able in cold, then in warm. But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any other also who are able; And thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.” Didache 7:1-4 (c. 60-100 AD)
 
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plain jayne

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As I said, it's an assumption. Coming up "out of the water" is not coming up from under the water.

All that the Bible's wording tells us is that, after the baptism, Jesus left the river and walked up to higher ground--exactly what any of us might say, under present circumstances, to the kids if we want them to come out of the lake or river and into the house. Every body of water is by definition lower than the surrounding banks, and if you are knee-deep in it to begin with, you are certainly going to go "up" when leaving the water.

Where does the Bible says the Jesus "left the river and walked up to higher ground."? Who is assuming now? ;)

All three gospels that have the baptism, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, only say that after the Spirit as a dove came and the Father spoke, Jesus was immediately led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness.

There nothing about him leaving the river and walking up high ground. You have added to the Bible that which is not there.

I've been on many lakes and rivers. Some have ground you have to climb, but many have flat ground level to the water that requires no "walking up". Here's a picture of the Jordan River that shows both.

images


Whether he had to "climb" out of the river or not is not a hill I am willing to die on.

There are too many people dying and going to hell - HUNDREDS on this forum alone who have openly rejected Christ. You believe what you will, but please don't add to scripture.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Just thinking about this further is that we don't know how long John proclaiming his message. As the son of a priest, he probably would have had a decent education in Judaism. It had to have been for some time though, maybe even a few years for him to attract the notice of Herod Antipas and other authorities. He also had a number of followers as noted by Scripture. He knew he was simply preparing the way for Jesus so by the time Jesus starts his public ministry, Jesus had a natural base of followers and people open to His message. So if John had been baptizing for a couple of years, people would have been baptized by him, traveled elsewhere and would not be familiar with the Christian movement. They might have known that there was more to come but that would be about it. Once the apostles are now actively baptizing and preaching, they find these former followers of John and simply bring them into the faith with a Trinitarian baptism.

That’s some excellent contemplation friend. Sounds like a perfectly viable explanation although I’m sure we would both agree is speculation but nevertheless it’s a sound argument to consider as a possibility. I think it makes a lot of sense. :oldthumbsup:
 
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DamianWarS

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Im not convinced that the disciples hadn’t received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost.
Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This marks the moment the disciplines recieved the HS. Before Pentecost but after the resurrection.
 
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BNR32FAN

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As I said, it's an assumption. Coming up "out of the water" is not coming up from under the water.

All that the Bible's wording tells us is that, after the baptism, Jesus left the river and walked up to higher ground--exactly what any of us might say, under present circumstances, to the kids if we want them to come out of the lake or river and into the house. Every body of water is by definition lower than the surrounding banks, and if you are knee-deep in it to begin with, you are certainly going to go "up" when leaving the water.

I’d still say that the definition of the Greek word baptismo is something to consider in light of Him coming up out of the water.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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That’s some excellent contemplation friend. Sounds like a perfectly viable explanation although I’m sure we would both agree is speculation but nevertheless it’s a sound argument to consider as a possibility. I think it makes a lot of sense. :oldthumbsup:

I have a varied interest in history so I try to approach things from a historical view. Some seem to think that Biblical events are happening in this mystical vacuum without regard to what else is going on in history. Israel's position is a major trading route in the eastern Mediterranean, located between Egypt, Greece, Roman, and Persia. So for the Bible's events to occur here is not a surprise. So I do my best to look at the history of the Jewish people and of the church within the historical context. Without understanding the historical context of the Pharisees, we just seem to think that they were evil incarnate. Instead, in the century prior to Christ, they basically laid the groundwork that the religion of the Jews was not just for priests to follow but for the Jewish people as a whole to follow. One of my favorite Pharisees is the Hillel the Elder,

A gentile once challenged Shammai to teach him the wisdom of the Torah while he stood on one foot. Shammai drove him away. The same gentile approached Hillel and asked of him the same thing. Hillel chastised him gently by saying, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation – now go and study."
Jesus expands on Hillel's "Silver Rule" with the "Golden Rule", turning it from a negative command, to a positive one.

Heck, there have been people that have thought that the Greek in the Scriptures was a special form of Greek.

History of the Greek Language | billmounce.com

For a long time Koine Greek confused many scholars. It was significantly different from Classical Greek. Some hypothesized that it was a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Others attempted to explain it as a "Holy Ghost language," meaning that God created a special language just for the Bible. But studies of Greek papyri found in Egypt over the past one hundred years have shown that this language was the language of the everyday people used in the writings of wills, private letters, receipts, shopping lists, etc.​
 
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BNR32FAN

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Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

This marks the moment the disciplines recieved the HS. Before Pentecost but after the resurrection.

Perhaps, it truly is hard to say for certain. I think we would agree that we do see evidence of the Holy Spirit in the disciples before Pentecost, even before Jesus’ arrest for that matter.
 
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DamianWarS

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I don't think it matters if it's immersion or pour on. I'm sure a few drops of water would be enough in a place where there are limited water resources.

“But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water. But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; And if thou art not able in cold, then in warm. But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any other also who are able; And thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.” Didache 7:1-4 (c. 60-100 AD)
I think the language favours immersion not to mention the parallels of death and resurrection are foreshadowed in baptism so with that in mind immersion seems fitting. However if we hyper focus on the method I think we miss the point. I have heard of individuals in desert climates where water is scarce being "dunked" into a coffin and rising out as their fourm of baptism. What passion that shows. Some people may have a problem with that but if it gives glory to God then I applaud it. Scarcity of water should not be a reason to not get baptised and generally people wait far to long thinking the all the right things need to be in place when their bath tub is fine with the friends that told them about Jesus.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I have a varied interest in history so I try to approach things from a historical view. Some seem to think that Biblical events are happening in this mystical vacuum without regard to what else is going on in history. Israel's position is a major trading route in the eastern Mediterranean, located between Egypt, Greece, Roman, and Persia. So for the Bible's events to occur here is not a surprise. So I do my best to look at the history of the Jewish people and of the church within the historical context. Without understanding the historical context of the Pharisees, we just seem to think that they were evil incarnate. Instead, in the century prior to Christ, they basically laid the groundwork that the religion of the Jews was not just for priests to follow but for the Jewish people as a whole to follow. One of my favorite Pharisees is the Hillel the Elder,

A gentile once challenged Shammai to teach him the wisdom of the Torah while he stood on one foot. Shammai drove him away. The same gentile approached Hillel and asked of him the same thing. Hillel chastised him gently by saying, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation – now go and study."
Jesus expands on Hillel's "Silver Rule" with the "Golden Rule", turning it from a negative command, to a positive one.

Heck, there have been people that have thought that the Greek in the Scriptures was a special form of Greek.

History of the Greek Language | billmounce.com

For a long time Koine Greek confused many scholars. It was significantly different from Classical Greek. Some hypothesized that it was a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Others attempted to explain it as a "Holy Ghost language," meaning that God created a special language just for the Bible. But studies of Greek papyri found in Egypt over the past one hundred years have shown that this language was the language of the everyday people used in the writings of wills, private letters, receipts, shopping lists, etc.​

I must admit I haven’t done much study on the Jewish customs and history. It truly is fascinating to me how we can examine these and bring a new light to the scriptures and better understand why certain things may have taken place or why certain things may have been said the way they were worded. I’m sure there are several figures of speech that are probably recorded in the scriptures that could have alternative meanings in the Jewish community during that time.
 
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Albion

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Where does the Bible says the Jesus "left the river and walked up to higher ground."? Who is assuming now? ;)
The fact that a person leaving a river bed would have to come "up" to reach dry land is indisputable, as is the fact that this is how it could be and is referred to.

The assumption that Jesus was completely under the water in a shallow part of this river is quite something to accept in itself, but it's also an assumption that the less likely of the two possibilities--being totally submerged vs. walking "up" and "out" upon leaving that place--was for certain what happened.

All three gospels that have the baptism, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, only say that after the Spirit as a dove came and the Father spoke, Jesus was immediately led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness.
So how does that verify your idea that the baptism was by immersion??

I've been on many lakes and rivers. Some have ground you have to climb, but many have flat ground level to the water that requires no "walking up". Here's a picture of the Jordan River that shows both.
Thank you. Both of those show that a person would have to "come up" out of the water in order to leave the river.

On one side, it would be something of a climb, but on the other, there still is a significant "step up." Remember that Jesus had to be standing in three or four feet of water--at the least--for there even to BE a baptism by immersion (meaning total submersion under the water). So where he was standing determines the start for his coming "up" when he left.
 
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Albion

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I’d still say that the definition of the Greek word baptismo is something to consider in light of Him coming up out of the water.
It is always considered.

But the word does not mean submerge. At least it doesn't mean that exclusively.

It also can also mean to wash, dip, and several other things. In short, the definition of the word doesn't resolve the dispute.
 
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PaulCyp1

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The Apostles taught what Jesus taught, and did what Jesus commanded them to do. If you don't believe that, Christianity is not worth following. The fact that they taught something or did something IS the evidence that Jesus taught them and commanded them to do so.
 
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I must admit I haven’t done much study on the Jewish customs and history. It truly is fascinating to me how we can examine these and bring a new light to the scriptures and better understand why certain things may have taken place or why certain things may have been said the way they were worded. I’m sure there are several figures of speech that are probably recorded in the scriptures that could have alternative meanings in the Jewish community during that time.

And it's not that it is a new light but rather one that comes from being immersed in the history of the church. Plus reading Greek on a regular basis doesnt hurt. There are nuances that are lost in going from one language to another, and then again 2000 years into the future from 1st century.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Im not convinced that the disciples hadn’t received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. I believe they already had received the Holy Spirit and that at Pentecost they had received the gift of tongues enabling them to speak in different languages so that they could spread the gospel. Jesus said that they already knew the Holy Spirit and that He abides with them in John 14. He also says that the Holy Spirit will be in them. So I think it’s interesting that the Holy Spirit will remain with them and will later be in them. I think perhaps being “in them” could mean that He will be working thru them.

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
I believe John 20 states the event. Jesus breathed on them, no water involved.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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In Acts 19 Paul came across 12 men who had been baptized by JTB but had not yet received the a Holy Spirit so Paul had to baptize them again, this time they were baptized in Jesus’ name then they received the Holy Spirit. I’m thinking perhaps John wasn’t doing a Trinitarian style baptism or perhaps it was because he didn’t baptize in Jesus’ name.
Possible but I do not see it that way. I believe Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit at that time. Or could be both.
 
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Simon D

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We know that Jesus himself was baptised by immersion in water (Matthew 3).

John the Baptist preached that "one would come after who would baptise with spirit and fire", however, Jesus does not appear to have baptised anyone via immersion in water and yet, the apostles clearly did this long after the cross.

I am also querying the relationship between Christian baptisms, the sanctuary service, and Jesus as both our sacrificial lamb and high priest (i feel that there is a link i the sanctuary services that explains why Jesus did not baptise in water)

If the baptism via immersion as performed by John the Baptist was an important ritual, what happened as a result of a break in the timeline between the death of John the Baptist, and the Day of Pentecost approx 7 weeks after Jesus crucifixion? (John died quite some time before Jesus did so if baptism by immersion in water is crucial in salvation, what happened immediately after John the baptist died as there is no record of any further water baptisms until the apostles)
The act of water baptism simply represents our Saviour's sacrifice on the cross. We are immersed in water and rise, as Jesus died and rose from the grave.

Jesus did not Baptise with water because he didn't. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. The baptism of Spirit is for those who believe in Him. The Holy Spirt enters us and we become Spiritually alive, when we believe.
 
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Mere semantics...the point is, John baptised with water, why is there no evidence Jesus did this, and if it was a new ritual started by John, how was that function fulfilled between Johns death and day of Pentecost?
Mikvehs gained popularity in Judaism a century earlier, so no John the Baptist did not invent it.
The Greek word baptism means 'to plunge' so most were immersions, not to mention a mikveh is considered an immersion and not a pouring or dabbing or anything. Jews from 100bc to 70ad went out of their way to construct mini pools where the entire body could be submerged.
 
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