Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

What is this knowledge based on? From my discussions with Jewish people there seems to be a distinct disinterest among most regarding the afterlife, with about all that can be said being that there is an immortal soul. So what's your source that that is the "traditional" view in Judaism today?

It's a well known fact.

Debatable

Then debate it by showing where the Torah and Hebrew Bible teaches about eternal torment, except perhaps maybe in Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24.

Which Talmud? And to what extent have you read it to make such a determination?

The Talmud Der Alte used as source material. I made such a determination by reading the source material provided by Der Alte.

It doesn't seem to me you're familiar enough with the material to make such a claim.

I'm quite familiar with the material provided by Der Alte regarding the matter, which is what's being discussed.

 

[Fervent]

It's a well known fact.

Then it shouldn't be difficult to find a source stating so. I decided to do a quick google search to see what came up, and it seems to match my experience in stating that there is not a well defined single view in Judaism and what I found of your "traditional" view seems to be mostly limited to Kabbalists. So do you have a source besides simply declaring it a "well known fact?"

Then debate it by showing where the Torah and Hebrew Bible teaches about eternal torment, except perhaps maybe in Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24.

That'd be more involved than I am willing to put in the effort.

The Talmud Der Alte used as source material. I made such a determination by reading the source material provided by Der Alte.

So you read the sections of the Talmud he posted? Or did you invent naked speculation to read what Der Alte posted in an alternative manner to the manner he presented it in?

I'm quite familiar with the material provided by Der Alte regarding the matter, which is what's being discussed.

Your statement covers far more than just what Der Alte has posted.

 

[ozso]

Then it shouldn't be difficult to find a source stating so. I decided to do a quick google search to see what came up, and it seems to match my experience in stating that there is not a well defined single view in Judaism and what I found of your "traditional" view seems to be mostly limited to Kabbalists. So do you have a source besides simply declaring it a "well known fact?"

I already posted a source. But I'll look for more when I have time. But what's germane is Der Alte's claim that a hell of eternal torment was a widely held predominate view among Jews during the time of Jesus' ministry.

That'd be more involved than I am willing to put in the effort.

Fair enough, and you should extend me the same courtesy.

So you read the sections of the Talmud he posted? Or did you invent naked speculation to read what Der Alte posted in an alternative manner to the manner he presented it in?

I read the sections the Talmud Der Alte posted. The only thing I speculated on what exactly Zakkai wept over, because it doesn't say.

Your statement covers far more than just what Der Alte has posted.

The crux of my statement is directed at what Der Alte posted, based on what he posted.

 

[Fervent]

I already posted a source. But I'll look for more when I have time. But what's germane is Der Alte's claim that a hell of eternal torment was a widely held predominate view among Jews during the time of Jesus' ministry.

I'm not sure we're reading the same posts, because I don't see Der Alte's claiming anything to how widespread the idea was simply that it is one of the views that was held. And what I see of his posts seem sufficient to establish a baseline belief.

Fair enough, and you should extend me the same courtesy.

I did, which is why I said your claim was debateable.

I read the sections the Talmud Der Alte posted. The only thing I speculated on what exactly Zakkai wept over, because it doesn't say.

When I asked about the sections, I don't just mean the tidbits he posted but the section in full. The expanded context often eliminates potential alternatives.

The crux of my statement is directed at what Der Alte posted, based on what he posted.

Fair enough.

One thing that I think somewhat complicates the matter is the question of what we mean by "Judaism" in the period under scrutiny. The beliefs on afterlife between the Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were all extremely different and even within the individual groups there is a wide variety of positions. Jesus' views seem to most closely align to the Pharisee's, though, so I think we could limit our scope to them.

 

[ozso]

I'm not sure we're reading the same posts, because I don't see Der Alte's claiming anything to how widespread the idea was simply that it is one of the views that was held. And what I see of his posts seem sufficient to establish a baseline belief.

His position as I've understood it, is that when Jesus spoke of Gehenna and Hades all or most of the Jews would have known that Jesus meant a place of eternal torment. Which would mean that it was a common and widely heald belief of theirs at the time.

When I asked about the sections, I don't just mean the tidbits he posted but the section in full. The expanded context often eliminates potential alternatives.

I'm only addressing what Der Alte posted.

Fair enough.

One thing that I think somewhat complicates the matter is the question of what we mean by "Judaism" in the period under scrutiny. The beliefs on afterlife between the Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were all extremely different and even within the individual groups there is a wide variety of positions. Jesus' views seem to most closely align to the Pharisee's, though, so I think we could limit our scope to them.

I mean what Der Alte means, as to who what where when he's talking about in his three incontrovertible sources post, which he posts several times in most any thread about UR.

Perhaps his main claim is that the sources he posted predate Dante's Devine Comedy. But I think it's likey the more picturesque descriptions given of hell by Protestant ministers and evangelists et all, were taken from Dante. However Dante probably got his inspiration from Greek and other ancient mythologies and folklore et al.

It's like arguing that Tolkien wasn't the first person to write about many of the elements found in the Lord of the Rigns. Yet most people are familiar with those elements through Tolkien, than through their original sources.

 

[Saint Steven]

Then how do you reconcile how Jesus, John, and Daniel separate people out, some getting eternal life, others getting damnation?

The answer presents itself in the very next verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[ozso]

Then how do you reconcile how Jesus, John, and Daniel separate people out, some getting eternal life, others getting damnation?

Who John is, is uncertain, which is why the Orthodox Church has always kept Revelation off to the side. Daniel said everlasting contempt, not damnation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Who John is, is uncertain, which is why the Orthodox Church has always kept Revelation off to the side. Daniel said everlasting contempt, not damnation.

Jesus said Damnation in John chapter 5.

 

[Jamdoc]

The answer presents itself in the very next verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Gumby looked at that stretch and said "that'd break me in two"

 

[Saint Steven]

Gumby looked at that stretch and said "that'd break me in two"

Have you not been broken yet?

Matthew 26:26 NIV
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you not been broken yet?

Matthew 26:26 NIV
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Look man, Jesus would not tell people to go to extreme lengths like gouging out your eyes or cutting off hands and feet to just have a shorter trip in line to heaven.
Not when the bible encourages people through persecution and chastisement because the end result is worth it.
What it tells me when Jesus does not encourage people through hell, is that there is no good end result that is worth it.

For persecution Jesus said to suffer through it and not be discouraged because "great is your reward in heaven"
for chastisement the author of Hebrews said not to be discouraged because " whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

That is NOT how Hell is treated, rather Hell is "Do whatever you have to do to not go there"

 

[Der Alte]

Who John is, is uncertain, which is why the Orthodox Church has always kept Revelation off to the side. Daniel said everlasting contempt, not damnation.

Still disseminating that false narrative.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not, cannot mean “correction."

 

[Der Alte]

...

 

[Saint Steven]

That is NOT how Hell is treated, rather Hell is "Do whatever you have to do to not go there"

That's the tyranny of it. The church has used it to control congregants. Fear-based spiritual extortion.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's the tyranny of it. The church has used it to control congregants. Fear-based spiritual extortion.

It's what's in the bible, it's what specifically, Jesus said.

Jesus encouraged enduring persecution and hardship, because the reward in heaven is worth it.
Jesus advised going to extremes, even losing body parts, to avoid hell.

You don't advise that for a temporary hardship with a worthwhile reward at the end of it.

If hell were corrective action, like chastisement, there would be encouragement for it, like there is chastisement, or conversely, if God's correction was to be avoided at all costs, the bible would teach to avoid chastisement from the Lord at all costs, rather than tell you to be encouraged that God is correcting you like He corrects a son.

If Hell is eternal punishment, not meant to correct, but simply to punish, then yes, you'd be advised to do whatever it takes to avoid it.
and that's what is seen in the bible.

 

[ozso]

Who John is, is uncertain, which is why the Orthodox Church has always kept Revelation off to the side. Daniel said everlasting contempt, not damnation.

Still disseminating that false narrative.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not, cannot mean “correction."

What does that have to do with my saying the authorship of Revelation is uncertain and what Daniel 12:2 says?

 

[ozso]

That's the tyranny of it. The church has used it to control congregants. Fear-based spiritual extortion.

Old days: Do whatever the church tells you, or be excommunicated and face eternal torment.

 

[ozso]

It's what's in the bible, it's what specifically, Jesus said.

Jesus encouraged enduring persecution and hardship, because the reward in heaven is worth it.
Jesus advised going to extremes, even losing body parts, to avoid hell.

You don't advise that for a temporary hardship with a worthwhile reward at the end of it.

If hell were corrective action, like chastisement, there would be encouragement for it, like there is chastisement, or conversely, if God's correction was to be avoided at all costs, the bible would teach to avoid chastisement from the Lord at all costs, rather than tell you to be encouraged that God is correcting you like He corrects a son.

If Hell is eternal punishment, not meant to correct, but simply to punish, then yes, you'd be advised to do whatever it takes to avoid it.
and that's what is seen in the bible.

How about just seeing it as losing an eye is preferable to being enslaved in sin?

A lot of people who are enslaved by sin are already in hell on earth.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * But what's germane is Der Alte's claim that a hell of eternal torment was a widely held predominate view among Jews during the time of Jesus' ministry. * * *

A blatant, deliberate falsification of what I said. Read my post again. I did NOT say that. What I said was,

"In Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and Sheol written in the 225BC LXX and the New Testament as Gehenna and Hades."​

Right after that I said.

"There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post."​

I think we're done here.

 

[Jamdoc]

What does that have to do with my saying the authorship of Revelation is uncertain and what Daniel 12:2 says?

Not particularly responding to this post but I will point out again that attempting to question authorship and therefore authenticity of Revelation's message is a bad way to defend your doctrine.