Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Saint Steven]

Talk about ad infinitum.

Or ad nauseum. - lol

 

[Der Alte]

For the umpteenth time, so far you haven't established that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment. The evidence you've provided for that so far has been scant.

Significant enough to be addressed in three Jewish publications. Once again your opinion of the sources I quoted is not relevant. Can you disprove anything I posted?

 

[ozso]

If sin has no actual punishment attached to it, many people enjoy sin.
Look at fornication
Unless God is going to punish fornicators, then most people would choose to fornicate... well.. look at our world.
Most people don't believe they'll be judged, so they gladly engage in hookup culture and seek out pleasure in fornication, and many people who have regular sex are a lot happier than those who live celibately for religious reasons.

I'm certainly not happy about living celibately, but I strongly believe I'm not ordained to be married either.
So that leaves me with bitter celibacy. It's not joyful, and I definitely don't feel like it'd be better to lose an eye or arm than to fornicate just to do it.
But if it's something that earns judgement from God? well.. then I guess bitter celibacy it is.

Or how about, stealing movies, music, and video games online... you haven't directly hurt someone, since you haven't physically taken something away from them that they'd normally sell, you've acquired a digital copy of something you may not have bought anyway, but since you got it for free, sure you'll listen to it, or watch it, or play it... if there's no judgement for such an action, what's the harm? It's a gain for you to sin in this way if there's no punishment from God attached to it.
But if God will judge you for it?
Why risk it?

It seems to me that some folks view their salvation as like having one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel. That's not what God intended. Do you ever have to fight the desire to eat a fried rat? No, you don't want anything to do with it because it's not part of your culture, even though fried rat is popular in parts of Asia. To me it's the same thing with being a Christian. I belong to the Family of God.

 

[Der Alte]

Some folks view their salvation as like having one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel. * * *

Rubbish. Can you provide any actual supporting infomation where anyone lives in fear that they have one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel? I have been active at this forum for a few decades and I have never encountered anyone who believes that.
I read in a novel many yrs. about a man, named Travis McGee, who helped people recover losses due to various illegal activities. At one time he was operating in Mexico and a Mexican official said his problem with the U.S. was "Parents don't tell their children 'The hot stove burns.'"
That is what I do, warn people that the hot stove burns. They can't live like the devil and expect to get into heaven.

 

[ozso]

Significant enough to be addressed in three Jewish publications. Once again you opinion of the sources I quoted is not relevant. Can you disprove anything I posted.

There's probably not a single encyclopedia in the world that doesn't cover the topic of hell. Much less religious encyclopedias. But neither of those encyclopedias state outright that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment. The Talmud also does not state outright that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment - at least not in what you have presented so far.

Present a source which states outright; in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment. I triple dog dare you.

 

[ozso]

Rubbish. Can you provide any actual supporting infomation where anyone lives in fear that they have one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel?

It's just an observation on my part bro. I edited the post to make that clear.

I have been active at this forum for a few decades and I have never encountered anyone who believes that.
I read in a novel many yrs. about a man, named Travis McGee, who helped people recover losses due to various illegal activities. At one time he was operating in Mexico and a Mexican official said his problem with the U.S. was "Parents don't tell their children 'The hot stove burns.'"
That is what I do, warn people that the hot stove burns. They can't live like the devil and expect to get into heaven.

 

[ozso]

Or ad nauseum. - lol

Yes indeed. I'm starting to run low on Pepto Bismol.

 

[Jamdoc]

It seems to me that some folks view their salvation as like having one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel. That's not what God intended. Do you ever have to fight the desire to eat a fried rat? No, you don't want anything to do with it because it's not part of your culture, even though fried rat is popular in parts of Asia. To me it's the same thing with being a Christian. I belong to the Family of God.

The argument is that you consider salvation to just be..... saving you from doing things that are pleasurable to most of the world.

For most people, avoiding sin and temptation is a struggle, their flesh WANTS to do those things and you deny it, and suffer discomfort in doing so sometimes.
So, salvation is.... making yourself struggle and be uncomfortable, and not even to avoid judgement.

 

[ozso]

The argument is that you consider salvation to just be..... saving you from doing things that are pleasurable to most of the world.

For most people, avoiding sin and temptation is a struggle, their flesh WANTS to do those things and you deny it, and suffer discomfort in doing so sometimes.
So, salvation is.... making yourself struggle and be uncomfortable, and not even to avoid judgement.

In my experience not when you are deeply rooted in a relationship with Jesus. These days especially I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in fornicating, looking at porn, or watching pirated movies etc. That's what sanctification brings about. Salvation isn't just justification. It's sanctification too. Look up Theosis and or Christification.

 

[Jamdoc]

In my experience not when you are deeply rooted in a relationship with Jesus. These days especially I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in fornicating, looking at porn, or watching pirated movies etc. That's what sanctification brings about. Salvation isn't just justification. It's sanctification too. Look up Theosis and or Christification.

You should go back in time and tell Paul that, or are you just more spiritual than Paul?

Romans 7

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

or how about what Jesus said
Matthew 16

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That imagery is teaching of suffering for Christ to follow Christ, but it is suffering, and struggle. It is not pleasant.

Thing is, unbelievers don't feel guilty about sin, they take pleasure in it. They don't feel it as a bondage that they want to be free of just for it's own sake.
Until they're convinced that there's a judgement for it, and Jesus saves you from that judgement... there's no guilt.

 

[ozso]

You should go back in time and tell Paul that, or are you just more spiritual than Paul?

Romans 7


or how about what Jesus said
Matthew 16


That imagery is teaching of suffering for Christ to follow Christ, but it is suffering, and struggle. It is not pleasant.

Thing is, unbelievers don't feel guilty about sin, they take pleasure in it. They don't feel it as a bondage that they want to be free of just for it's own sake.
Until they're convinced that there's a judgement for it, and Jesus saves you from that judgement... there's no guilt.

It depends on what Paul was dealing with. I still do what I don't want to do, and don't do what I should do, but it's more on a Christian level like Bible reading, praying, doing more for the kingdom, expressing love and compassion for strangers etc. But worldly sinful lusts have grown increasingly dim to me.

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Jamdoc]

It depends on what Paul was dealing with. I still do what I don't want to do, and don't do what I should do, but it's more on a Christian level like Bible reading, praying, doing more for the kingdom, expressing love and compassion for strangers etc. But worldly sinful lusts have grown increasingly dim to me. Mind you this has been a 60 year journey for me thus far.

That aside though, the real point is that without belief in judgement.. there really is no guilt. It's the law that convicts and brings guilt. As Paul wrote, he was alive without the law once, but then the commandment came, and sin revived and he died.
IE before someone tells you that coveting something that your neighbor has is wrong and that God hates when you do that and that frankly, God will judge you for that and punish you for it...

There's no guilt.... your neighbor gets something nice.... you want one too.
Now obviously some things will weigh on your conscience even without being taught the law. Like, thinking you don't just want something LIKE what your neighbor has, but rather, you want the exact thing your neighbor has and are willing to steal from him, or worse, kill him over it. Obviously conscience weighs against that.
But simply desiring something you don't have, like say they got a nice new car, conscience wise, there's nothing telling you that wanting a new car yourself and being willing to do the work to earn the money to buy the new car is bad.
Only someone telling you that God's law says that is bad and condemning you for it would make you feel guilty.

but if there's no judgement attached to that, especially when it's a "thought crime".. does anyone truly feel remorseful over coveting?
Considering how much witnessing involves people telling you they're good people until you point out that they're law breakers... I don't think many do.

Your stance strikes me as someone who was basically born and raised in Church, and never really had to be convicted to repent and turn to Jesus but you were just in a family where it was just expected that you stay in the faith.

But having come not from that background?
I had to be convicted first... and even the first conviction didn't work, because those who tried to witness to me taught a works based salvation, it seemed impossible to live up to the standards set, because I knew that simply acting a certain way wasn't enough, that motives and thoughts came into it, and I knew I'd never live up to that, even at a young age. So I rejected it.
I had to be convicted, and told that Jesus had died BECAUSE I was convicted, in order to take my place, that's when it all came together that "if God went that far and endured that, so that I wouldn't have to go to hell..." changes things.

But if you'd come to me and said "Jesus died so that you could never enjoy pornography again!" I doubt I'd have signed up. Conviction, with judgement, and the hope in the gospel are all interconnected and necessary.

So when you witness... what do you tell people, "there's no judgement.. but follow Christ and give up your sins anyway, yeah you just won't be able to enjoy them and every time you do them you'll feel guilty and beat yourself up praying for forgiveness again, it's great!"

Because without judgement... that's what you're kind of leaning on, that Christ died so that you won't enjoy sin anymore
not Christ died for your sins so you won't go to hell.

 

[ozso]

Fear of judgement just here on earth has kept me in line. I don't need there to be the death penalty for every crime for that. The idea of just one day in jail has always been terrifying to me.

 

[Jamdoc]

Fear of judgement just here on earth has kept me in line. I don't need there to be the death penalty for every crime for that. The idea of just one day in jail has always been terrifying to me.

Funny because Hebrews 12 again, encourages through corrective action.
Obviously you don't want to get spanked, but, if you do, you're encouraged that at least God is spanking you like a disobedient son, rather than having you arrested and thrown in jail like a stranger (in this case the sentence is eternal)
If you swipe a $20 bill out of Dad's wallet without asking and then go buy weed and Dad catches you.. okay.. Dad's going to deal with it. It's not going to be pleasant, but he'll deal with it in house, he won't bring law enforcement into the picture and have you go to jail. You're still going to regret doing it, but comparatively, it's going to be lesser, and it's meant to correct you BEFORE you do something like that that DOES get law enforcement involved. Because he loves you, and while you did something bad against him, you're his son and he's not going to disown you over it.

Now a stranger, some other neighborhood kid sneaks in, and steals from him, and goes to buy weed..... could even be the same age as the dad's son, doesn't matter, he's not his son, so the cops get called, he gets charged with the theft, and possession, and he goes to jail.. Could be years.. I think someone I knew from high school (who did that, stole from a neighbor to buy weed and then got caught) spent a year in prison plus several more years of probation.
Definitely better to be punished by Dad than judged by a stranger you committed a crime against.

But the other half of this is.. God only chastises His children according to Hebrews 12.
and that's the encouragement.
If God doing Earthly punishment is enough to steer you away from sin... well.. what about those who are as the author of Hebrews put it.... bastards? The author says that God doesn't chastise those, only His sons.

So if earthly chastisement is the only consequence for some sins that exist only in the mind, like lust, or getting so angry at someone you want the ground to open up and swallow them...
then the way to avoid that would be.... don't give yourself to Jesus, and just remain a bastard?

so.. I think for an unbeliever.. Judgement is still necessary.

 

[ozso]

Your position seems to be that the punishment of eternal torment must exist to keep people from sinning. Whereas I don't think the punishment of eternal torment is necessary to accomplish that. And it doesn't appear we will ever see eye to eye on that, no matter how many long posts we exchange between us.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your position seems to be that the punishment of eternal torment must exist to keep people from sinning. Whereas I don't think the punishment of eternal torment is necessary to accomplish that. And it doesn't appear we will ever see eye to eye on that, no matter how many long posts we exchange between us.

Not to keep them from sinning, but rather to demonstrate their need for a savior.

You're not going to convince an unbeliever to seek the savior with the promise of "well you won't enjoy sinning anymore"

 

[ozso]

One thing I take note of is that in Job, when God said to Satan, look how faithful and righteous my servant Job is, Satan didn't reply, that's only because he's afraid of eternal torment in hell.

 

[ozso]

Not to keep them from sinning, but rather to demonstrate their need for a savior.

You're not going to convince an unbeliever to seek the savior with the promise of "well you won't enjoy sinning anymore"

I remember when I was young I went to some Christian concert. And the testimony the singer gave, broke me to pieces. I was a sobbing quivering mess sitting with one of the counselors there. And this didn't happen because he talked about eternal torment. A few years before that when I was 16, the same thing happened at a Christian youth camp. And again, it wasn't because someone gave a sermon on eternal torment. In the Cross and the Switchbade (a true story) the ruthless gangster Nicky Cruze became saved and an avid evangelist, because David Wilkerson demonstrated the love of Christ to him, not because Wilkerson told him he was going to suffer eternal torment. Did Jesus need to tell the Apostles they were going to eternal torment to get them to follow him? Did Jesus have to threaten Paul with eternal torment? Did Peter have to threaten Cornelius? Were the 3000 who turned to Christ in Acts told they would suffer eternal torment to get them to repent?

 

[Jamdoc]

I remember when I was young I went to some Christian concert. And the testimony the singer gave, broke me to pieces. I was a sobbing quivering mess sitting with one of the counselors there. And this didn't happen because he talked about eternal torment. A few years before that when I was 16, the same thing happened at a Christian youth camp. And again, it wasn't because someone gave a sermon on eternal torment. In the Cross and the Switchbade (a true story) the ruthless gangster Nicky Cruze became saved and an avid evangelist, because David Wilkerson demonstrated the love of Christ to him, not because Wilkerson told him he was going to suffer eternal torment. Did Jesus need to tell the Apostles they were going to eternal torment to get them to follow him? Did Jesus have to threaten Paul with eternal torment? Did Peter have to threaten Cornelius? Were the 3000 who turned to Christ in Acts told they would suffer eternal torment to get them to repent?

The love of Christ IS saving you from the judgement of God, the "weeping and gnashing of teeth"

yeah, sounds like you never grew up in the world, so you never had to be convicted of why you needed to be saved.
For someone who had to be converted?
They enjoy sin.
saving someone out of something they enjoy, that's not motivation.
Knowing there's a judgement for DOING the things that they enjoy that are wrong, and someone paid the penalty for you.. that's where they get converted.

 

[ozso]

… Would you be free from your burden of sin
There's power in the blood power in the blood
Would you o'er evil a victory win
There's wonderfull power in the blood
… There is power power wonder working power in the blood of the lamb
There is power power wonder working power in the precious blood of lamb
… Would you be whiter much wither than snow
There's power in the blood power in the blood
Sin's stains are lost and it's life giving flow
There's one flicker power in the blood
… There is power power...
… Would you do service for Jesus your king
There's power in the blood power in the blood
Would you lift David his praises to sing
There's wonderfull power in the blood