Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Der Alte]

Did the except I posted say anything that's untrue?

The website does not provide any credible, verifiable, historical, scriptural evidence for any of the claims made. There might be something true in there I don't know.

 

[ozso]

The website does not provide any credible, verifiable, historical, scriptural evidence for any of the claims made. There might be something true in there I don't know.

You don't know what the traditional Jewish view of Hell is?

 

[ozso]

It addressed a topic I am involved in. I have since changed it.

It was something I came across and I posted it because it relates to the topic of this thread.

It addressed a topic I am involved in. I have since changed it.No evidence of that. You skimmed it trying to find a few things you thought you could refute. And FYI the fact that eternal punishment was not the only view of the after life in ancient Israel does not in any way disprove anything in my posts.

I read it thoroughly and dissected it. A little while ago I read it thoroughly again, to see if I agree with the appraisal I made of it last year, and I do. It offers very little to prove the traditional view was one of eternal torment. The only thing really substantive in the material you posted of that is found in the book of Judith and the Book of Enoch. For example, "Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell". But that doesn't stipulate he believed in an eternal torment hell. Maybe he was crying because he didn't know if he was pious enough to escape the traditional Jewish view of hell being a purgatorial cleansing before going to paradise, and felt ashamed. Can you provide anything that says he believed in eternal torment?

Here's an updated 3 Sources Critique.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

You say my source is in ignorance, so can you site a prominent source that says the book of Enoch is legitimate?

Men who study, know. Many have posted on this forum quoting many who used Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam, as legitimate. Jesus' womb brothers used it as legitimate.
Abraham used it as legitimate, and wrote about his using it to teach wisdom, values and truth to the wise men of pharoah, as his testament in the DSS show.
And on and on and on and on....such men of old have used the doctrines laid in Enoch.
Without Enoch, you have absolutely no foundation for all that comes after.
Summa Scriptura: For many believers an undiscovered treasure trove of blessing!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, eternal life is available to all who are in Christ.
But that is not everyone.
If they're not in Christ, they don't have eternal life, but they will be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation.
All mankind are in Adam, not all mankind are in Christ.
Jesus makes the distinction between those that are His, and those that are not His.

I like this explanation better. cc: @public hermit

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Jamdoc]

I like this explanation better. cc: @public hermit

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Then how do you reconcile how Jesus, John, and Daniel separate people out, some getting eternal life, others getting damnation?

 

[Der Alte]

It was something I came across and I posted it because it relates to the topic of this thread.
I read it thoroughly and dissected it. A little while ago I read it thoroughly again, to see if I agree with the appraisal I made of it last year, and I do. It offers very little to prove the traditional view was one of eternal torment. The only thing really substantive in the material you posted of that is found in the book of Judith and the Book of Enoch. For example, "Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell". But that doesn't stipulate he believed in an eternal torment hell. Maybe he was crying because he didn't know if he was pious enough to escape the traditional Jewish view of hell being a purgatorial cleansing before going to paradise, and felt ashamed. Can you provide anything that says he believed in eternal torment?
Here's an updated 3 Sources Critique.

No you did NOT read it thoroughly and dissect it. I pointed out your errors in the linked post. "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" Is not dissecting anything.
Your objection about Johanan b. Zakkai is a meaningless digression. I did NOT say everything I quoted supported eternal punishment. There is nothing I need to say about Zakkai. Where did you get "purgatorial cleansing?"

 

[ozso]

No you did NOT read it thoroughly and dissect it. I pointed out your errors in the linked post. "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" Is not dissecting anything.
Your objection about Johanan b. Zakkai is a meaningless digression. I did NOT say everything I quoted supported eternal punishment. There is nothing I need to say about Zakkai. Where did you get "purgatorial cleansing?"

I've gone over it thoroughly several times and there's nothing there that gives tangible evidence that the intertestamental period Jews taught or believed in everlasting torment.

 

[Der Alte]

I've gone over it thoroughly several times and there's nothing there that gives tangible evidence that the intertestamental period Jews taught or believed in everlasting torment.

Rubbish. I have pointed it out to you twice I even bolded the relevant parts.

 

[ozso]

Rubbish. I have pointed it out to you twice I even bolded the relevant parts.

They're not all that relevant. Even if there was anything solid there, It could just blamed on how messed up their theology got during the intertestamental period. But it's just not really there.

 

[Fervent]

Maybe he was crying because he didn't know if he was pious enough to escape the traditional Jewish view of hell being a purgatorial cleansing before going to paradise, and felt ashamed. .

Is this based on something or just naked speculation?

 

[Der Alte]

They're not all that relevant. Even if there was anything solid there, It could just blamed on how messed up their theology got during the intertestamental period. But it's just not really there.

Your flawed, irrelevant opinion is again noted.

 

[ozso]

Is this based on something or just naked speculation?

Naked speculation because there's nothing specific as to what exactly he was crying over. Do you know if any evidence that he believed in eternal torment?

 

[ozso]

Your flawed, irrelevant opinion is again noted.

Ditto.

 

[Fervent]

Naked speculation because there's nothing specific as to what exactly he was crying over. Do you know if any evidence that he believed in eternal torment?

Seems a rather circular objection. Is the entire thing speculation, or do you have some evidence of what you claim is the "traditional" view?

I'm not sure what he believed, but speculating in that way makes it seem like your interest is not in seeking the truth but reasoning to preserve your conclusion.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[ozso]

Seems a rather circular objection. Is the entire thing speculation, or do you have some evidence of what you claim is the "traditional" view?

I'm not sure what he believed, but speculating in that way makes it seem like your interest is not in seeking the truth but reasoning to preserve your conclusion.

Der Alte is insisting that there was a wide belief in eternal torment among Jews at the time of the ministry of Jesus. And he posted some stuff that's supposed to prove that, but it doesn't in my opinion.

As proof that Jews widely believed in eternal torment in Jesus time, he gave an example of a well known Rabbi who was about Jesus' age who wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell". But that's not proof that he believed in an eternal torment hell. He could have been crying for any number of reasons.

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom. Go ahead an look it up.

 

[Fervent]

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom. Go ahead an look it up.

I'm aware that this is a popular interpretation among modern jews, but saying "traditional Judaism" when discussing afterlife opinions(especially one that such as the purgatorial view of Gehinnom) is pretty far off from what I understand of the Jewish attitude towards the afterlife.

Do you have any historic sources that speak of Gehinnom(which is a portion of She'ol not distinct from it) as being purifying rather than a means of punishing the wicked?

 

[ozso]

I'm aware that this is a popular interpretation among modern jews, but saying "traditional Judaism" when discussing afterlife opinions(especially one that such as the purgatorial view of Gehinnom) is pretty far off from what I understand of the Jewish attitude towards the afterlife.

Do you have any historic sources that speak of Gehinnom(which is a portion of She'ol not distinct from it) as being purifying rather than a means of punishing the wicked?

I don't know at this time why they hold the view that sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom, I just know that's what traditional Judaism teaches. After all the Torah and Hebrew Bible doesn't teach about eternal torment, except perhaps maybe in Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24. And there's no real indication the Talmud teaches it either. It seems so far the only Jewish source that teaches eternal torment is the book of Judith written around 100 BC. And the book of Enoch, but that was written in the 2nd century so it didn't exist in Jesus' time.

If you have any substantial evidence that the Jews ever held a wide belief in a hell of eternal torment, I eagerly welcome it.

 

[Fervent]

I don't know at this time why they hold the view that sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom, I just know that's what traditional Judaism teaches.

What is this knowledge based on? From my discussions with Jewish people there seems to be a distinct disinterest among most regarding the afterlife, with about all that can be said being that there is an immortal soul. So what's your source that that is the "traditional" view in Judaism today?

After all the Torah and Hebrew Bible doesn't teach about eternal torment, except perhaps maybe in Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24.

Debateable.

And there's no real indication the Talmud teaches it either.

Which Talmud? And to what extent have you read it to make such a determination?

It seems so far the only Jewish source that teaches eternal torment is the book of Judith written around 100 BC. And the book of Enoch, but that was written in the 2nd century so it didn't exist in Jesus' time.

It doesn't seem to me you're familiar enough with the material to make such a claim.