Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Fervent]

Look at my post history! I must have posted hundreds of times about "eternal punishment" so hardly ignoring it. Granted, mainly to point out that it's a mistranslation of what Jesus actually said, which is "aionios kolasis" (correction lasting for an age) in scripture.

By your own admission you are not qualified to make such a determination, nor are you qualified to determine what scholars are credible on the matter. Yet here you are declaring such a thing as if it were fact.

 

[Der Alte]

By your own admission you are not qualified to make such a determination, nor are you qualified to determine what scholars are credible on the matter. Yet here you are declaring such a thing as if it were fact.

It appears that over there if something or someone supports UR it/they are right if they don't support UR they are wrong.

 

[Hmm]

There's nothing lovable about me.
Other people hate me so I just joined the club.

Have you tried seeing yourself as God sees you? God loves you so you are lovable, no?

I know that probably sounds trite but I don't think it is. What you express is what a lot of people, including me, feel but who may not have the courage to say it as you have done.

A minister I know said the same thing to me a month or so back. I had a very abusive childhood which led to a problem in me not not being able to accept love because I thought I wasn't loveable. I'm a straight male and I was always able to be good friends with women - supportive and light hearted etc - but if it ever became more than that and it turned into a relationship I quickly froze up and started being cold towards them. I didn't want to and I didn't know why I did but looking back I know it was because I was trying to push them away from me for their own good. I could be a good friend because there was a distance there but I couldn't cope with the intimacy of a relationship because I felt that they could do better. And I never dealt with this. I even got married and then divorced a few years back because of this. It's only now I'm working on it. I have met someone new who I really like and she is so loving that some of it is beginning to rub off on me. I'm beginning to see myself as she sees me and I genuinely feel that she loves me so I must be loveable but I do struggle to internalise it and feel it when I'm not with her. But I guess this relationship may be temporary too and I believe the only thing we can really depend on is that God loves us unconditionally. He's not a person like other people are but maybe as we get to know Him we can relate to Him more and more as a person and really feel loved.

That's what I was told to do anyway by this minister, to see myself through God's eyes rather than my own. I'm finding it very difficult I have a lot of resistance in me. To allow someone or God to love you you have to trust them because it makes you vulnerable - they may stop loving you. While this is true of other people, it isn't true of God so He should be the bedrock I guess.

 

[ozso]

God didn't give up on them.
Babylon was chastisement.
They had neglected His law so they needed to be chastised, but He outright says there is a limited time frame for it, and that long term, He has plans for them and that His thoughts for them are of peace.

Jeremiah 29


the Lord is saying, endure my chastisement, it is a lesson you have to learn about respecting me, but I have not given up on you, I'll restore you after you've learned the lesson.

They were given another chance though the arrival of their Messiah.

 

[ozso]

Not only is your source in ignorance of the history of Enoch’s being used by all the patriarchs from his son, Methusaleh, on down, it is also totally making false claims about it.
Have you read it?
Nope! The book of Enoch is where the foundations are laid down about the doctrines that are used by Moses and the prophets, and by all who wrote after.
The DSS scrolls have copies of copies of copies of the book of 1 Enoch (which is the same as Ethiopian Enoch), and it is not a Jewish book, with nothing in it to even suggest it is.
And the language Enoch copies are written in that the Ethiopian Jews had when they converted to Christ Jesus is not spoken now, by them, but it is a dialect of Hebrew.

You say my source is in ignorance, so can you site a prominent source that says the book of Enoch is legitimate?

 

[ozso]

When you read any other encyclopedia entry do you reject it because you think some of it is "false mythical paganistic non-scriptural beliefs?"
Your repetitive comment about "mythical paganistic non-scriptural belief" is and always will be irrelevant. I did not and will never quote any so-called "mythical paganistic non-scriptural belief" as I have pointed out before, so this repetition is just a smoke screen diverting attention away from what I did quote.
Try to remember this I quoted the Talmud because its comments on some historical events agrees with entries in the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. If you ever find any credible, verifiable, historical information which refutes anything I quoted let me know.

I didn't say anything against those encyclopedias. I said they covered the historic intertestamental period when the Jews made stuff up. Just like the Bible itself covers the times they got into wrong beliefs and practices. But of course that doesn't mean that there was any validity to their wrong beliefs and practices.

 

[ozso]

It appears that over there if something or someone supports UR it/they are right if they don't support UR they are wrong.

And vice versa.

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you tried seeing yourself as God sees you? God loves you so you are lovable, no?

I know that probably sounds trite but I don't think it is. What you express is what a lot of people, including me, feel but who may not have the courage to say it as you have done.

A minister I know said the same thing to me a month or so back. I had a very abusive childhood which led to a problem in me not not being able to accept love because I thought I wasn't loveable. I'm a straight male and I was always able to be good friends with women - supportive and light hearted etc - but if it ever became more than that and it turned into a relationship I quickly froze up and started being cold towards them. I didn't want to and I didn't know why I did but looking back I know it was because I was trying to push them away from me for their own good. I could be a good friend because there was a distance there but I couldn't cope with the intimacy of a relationship because I felt that they could do better. And I never dealt with this. I even got married and then divorced a few years back because of this. It's only now I'm working on it. I have met someone new who I really like and she is so loving that some of it is beginning to rub off on me. I'm beginning to see myself as she sees me and I genuinely feel that she loves me so I must be loveable but I do struggle to internalise it and feel it when I'm not with her. But I guess this relationship may be temporary too and I believe the only thing we can really depend on is that God loves us unconditionally. He's not a person like other people are but maybe as we get to know Him we can relate to Him more and more as a person and really feel loved.

That's what I was told to do anyway by this minister, to see myself through God's eyes rather than my own. I'm finding it very difficult I have a lot of resistance in me. To allow someone or God to love you you have to trust them because it makes you vulnerable - they may stop loving you. While this is true of other people, it isn't true of God so He should be the bedrock I guess.

God sees me as a disobedient son that He has to chastise repeatedly.

Think Joe Biden and Hunter Biden, I'm Hunter, constantly making a mess of things and Dad should cut him off and let him reap what he sows but ultimately pays the price for his drug binges and hooker bills. Okay maybe my disobedience isn't the exact same things as what Hunter does, but it's every bit as bad. Obviously God is a much better Father than Joe Biden could ever hope to be.. but it's just a picture.. of a father covering for his disobedient wreck of a son's problems that he causes for himself.
I bring shame to the family and I'm the son that makes the Father sigh.
Still a son, just not the one that brings the father joy that He is proud of, but the one that needs to be disciplined constantly, and be told no when he asks for things, because while the son may think those things would be good for him, the Father knows better and they will ultimately be bad and probably just enable the son to disobey worse and more frequently. But the child does not understand that they may be bad things, because he sees other people have these things and they seem good.

 

[Jamdoc]

They were given another chance though the arrival of their Messiah.

correct and they will be given another chance and a remnant will be saved when Jesus returns.

so it is in error to say God gave up on Israel or has given up on Israel as many replacement theologists teach.

Romans 11 teaches this and so does Zechariah 13, which I will quote Zechariah here

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Now before you jump and say "A-ha! See, there's the post death cleansing purgatory for UR!". It's not
It refers to the 70th week of Daniel, most specifically to the persecution of the Great Tribulation.
See when idols are taken away, health, wealth, possessions, fame, family, jobs, land, home.. all those other things that you look to as your life... what's left? God.
and it is in that state that people turn to Jesus as their one hope, and only thing to live for.
It seems paradoxical, but persecution grows the Church.

That is what happens. The antichrist makes war on the saints, and they call out to God. Jesus brings their redemption.. and upon those that persecuted them? He brings the wrath of God.

 

[ozso]

correct and they will be given another chance and a remnant will be saved when Jesus returns.

so it is in error to say God gave up on Israel or has given up on Israel as many replacement theologists teach.

Romans 11 teaches this and so does Zechariah 13, which I will quote Zechariah here


Now before you jump and say "A-ha! See, there's the post death cleansing purgatory for UR!". It's not
It refers to the 70th week of Daniel, most specifically to the persecution of the Great Tribulation.
See when idols are taken away, health, wealth, possessions, fame, family, jobs, land, home.. all those other things that you look to as your life... what's left? God.
and it is in that state that people turn to Jesus as their one hope, and only thing to live for.
It seems paradoxical, but persecution grows the Church.

That is what happens. The antichrist makes war on the saints, and they call out to God. Jesus brings their redemption.. and upon those that persecuted them? He brings the wrath of God.

I meant that God had given up on them at that time for the time being.

God allowed the temple to be destroyed, let them be conquered and taken into captivity, and stopped sending them prophets. So in the interim in which God cut them off so severely, and when Jesus arrived, they had made up a bunch of new laws, traditions and beliefs, and had developed a level of harshness not found in scripture, to try and compensate. Which lead to their hearts being hardened, so that when their Messiah arrived they ended up having him murdered. Which lead to the second temple being destroyed and them being conquered once again within a generation of that.

 

[Jamdoc]

I meant that God had given up on them at that time for the time being.

God allowed the temple to be destroyed, let them be conquered and taken into captivity, and stopped sending them prophets. So in the interim in which God cut them off so severely, and when Jesus arrived, they had made up a bunch of new laws, traditions and beliefs, and had developed a level of harshness not found in scripture, to try and compensate. Which lead to their hearts being hardened, so that when their Messiah arrived they ended up having him murdered. Which lead to the second temple being destroyed and them being conquered once again within a generation of that.

God raised them up prophets in Babylon as Jeremiah wrote.
Ezekiel and Daniel
God also raised up prophets after Babylon, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi

So the drought in prophets is not really connected to the exile itself.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not about being seeker sensitive, it's about the truth. The at times difficult truth contained in the Bible.

Why the need to make this an us versus them thing?
There are a whole range of beliefs within Christianity.

I don't ask that you accept UR, only that you have a good understanding of it. Perhaps you should switch from rebuttals to questions that help you better understand UR.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's not about being seeker sensitive, it's about the truth. The at times difficult truth contained in the Bible.



Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
but no, it's not some sort of high. It's just I believe what the bible says on the matter. I can't sugarcoat.
That's part of the reason why I am ineffective at evangelism.
I can't sugarcoat and tickle people's ears.
The bible contains hard truths that are difficult for me to even read and meditate on.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning

However, in the completion the work

Love is made mature in us so we have confidence on the day of judgment.

He who fears does not become mature in love.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why the need to make this an us versus them thing?
There are a whole range of beliefs within Christianity.

I don't ask that you accept UR, only that you have a good understanding of it. Perhaps you should switch from rebuttals to questions that help you better understand UR.

I don't have interest in understanding unbiblical doctrines.

 

[Jamdoc]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning

However, in the completion the work

Love is made mature in us so we have confidence on the day of judgment.

He who fears does not become mature in love.

so Romans 9 and Joshua don't at all faze you?
God creating people specifically to suffer to display His wrath to those He has mercy on, and God ordaining the death of every man woman and child of Canaan, like not even sparing children, just blanket Genocide, you can love those without fear?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

so Romans 9 and Joshua don't at all faze you?
God creating people specifically to suffer to display His wrath to those He has mercy on, and God ordaining the death of every man woman and child of Canaan, like not even sparing children, just blanket Genocide, you can love those without fear?

God is love, and when He returns, we will see Him and become as He is.

All the tears will be wiped from our faces, and the former things will no longer be remembered or even mentioned.

The bible teaches these things, do you believe this is true?

 

[ozso]

I don't have interest in understanding unbiblical doctrines.

I don't see much point in investing time and energy arguing about something you don't understand. Most Christians I know of even learn about other religions like Islam and Hinduism before debating with a Muslims and Hindus.

As a matter of fact I'm going to start digging deeper into what the Jews believed and taught during the 400 year intertestamental period.

 

[Saint Steven]

From FL

"I believe that God is making all things new. I believe that Christ overcame death and that pattern is apparent all through life and history: life from death, water from a stone, redemption from failure, connection from alienation. I believe that suffering is part of the narrative, and that nothing really good gets built when everything's easy." ~Shauna Niequist

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't have interest in understanding unbiblical doctrines.

That's ridiculous.
I have tons of scripture if you want to see it. But you don't.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it unbiblical. Especially after all the scripture we have shared with you. Repeat... shared with you.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't have interest in understanding unbiblical doctrines.

A faith that can't stand up to a little criticism is not much of a faith.

What do you like best about hell?
You are fighting tooth and claw to protect it. What value do you see?