Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

Did I quote it somewhere? If not [which is correct]why are you asking me about it?

Twas a joke

Get off of the Talmud, already. I did not quote it as scripture, only for its historical information and which you have failed to acknowledge.

I fully acknowledge the Talmud details false mythical paganistic non-scriptural beliefs the Jews developed during the historic period of the Babylonian captivity and the and the intertestamental period, as also does the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica.

And also the book of Enoch details those beliefs according to yeshuasavedme.

BTW, not only have I read what you posted in posts #640-641, and many other places, I once gave my analysis of it here: Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

 

[ozso]

I humbly and most sincerely apologize!

No problemo.

 

[ozso]

Totally a false statement. It isn't even a "Jewish" book.

The Book of Enoch, written during the second century B.C.E., is one of the most important non-canonical pseudepigraphical works. Its only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation made in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.
Yale University Library Research Guides: Jewish Apocalyptic Literature: 1 Enoch

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Not according to the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

If we read this parable, we see the difference between the faithful and the unfaithful, the sheep and the goats as described, of course the sheep, those to whom He is the Sheperd and the goats, are by description not His sheep, the sheep enter into the gate by the Good Sheperd, Jesus.

Matt: 34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Matt: 31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

 

[Der Alte]

If we read this parable, we see the difference between the faithful and the unfaithful, the sheep and the goats as described, of course the sheep, those to whom He is the Sheperd and the goats, are by description not His sheep, the sheep enter into the gate by the Good Sheperd, Jesus.

Matt: 34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Matt: 31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

ἀμὴν

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago.
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
In 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus the vs. defines the meaning of "αἰώνιος/aionios."

 

[Hmm]

the sheep, those to whom He is the Sheperd and the goats, are by description not His sheep, the sheep enter into the gate by the Good Sheperd, Jesus.

Honestly, and I've read this several times, what does this mean?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Book of Enoch, written during the second century B.C.E., is one of the most important non-canonical pseudepigraphical works. Its only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation made in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.
Yale University Library Research Guides: Jewish Apocalyptic Literature: 1 Enoch

Not only is your source in ignorance of the history of Enoch’s being used by all the patriarchs from his son, Methusaleh, on down, it is also totally making false claims about it.
Have you read it?
Nope! The book of Enoch is where the foundations are laid down about the doctrines that are used by Moses and the prophets, and by all who wrote after.
The DSS scrolls have copies of copies of copies of the book of 1 Enoch (which is the same as Ethiopian Enoch), and it is not a Jewish book, with nothing in it to even suggest it is.
And the language Enoch copies are written in that the Ethiopian Jews had when they converted to Christ Jesus is not spoken now, by them, but it is a dialect of Hebrew.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Honestly, and I've read this several times, what does this mean?

Sorry about that, I can't figure out how I sent it to you either, have a blest day.

 

[Hmm]

Sorry about that, I can't figure out how I sent it to you either, have a blest day.

No worries!

 

[Der Alte]

the sheep, those to whom He is the Sheperd and the goats, are by description not His sheep, the sheep enter into the gate by the Good Sheperd, Jesus.

Honestly, and I've read this several times, what does this mean?

The "goats" i.e. "not sheep" don't enter the sheep fold they go away into "eternal punishment." The "sheep" enter into the sheep fold through Jesus who is the gate. I read somewhere that the shepherd would sleep in the entrance of the sheep fold, literally acting as the gate, keeping the sheep in and the wolves etc. out.

 

[Der Alte]

Twas a joke
I fully acknowledge the Talmud details false mythical paganistic non-scriptural beliefs the Jews developed during the historic period of the Babylonian captivity and the and the intertestamental period, as also does the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica.
And also the book of Enoch details those beliefs according to yeshuasavedme.
BTW, not only have I read what you posted in posts #640-641, and many other places, I once gave my analysis of it here: Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

When you read any other encyclopedia entry do you reject it because you think some of it is "false mythical paganistic non-scriptural beliefs?"
Your repetitive comment about "mythical paganistic non-scriptural belief" is and always will be irrelevant. I did not and will never quote any so-called "mythical paganistic non-scriptural belief" as I have pointed out before, so this repetition is just a smoke screen diverting attention away from what I did quote.
Try to remember this I quoted the Talmud because its comments on some historical events agrees with entries in the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. If you ever find any credible, verifiable, historical information which refutes anything I quoted let me know.

 

[Jamdoc]

We are mostly in agreement here.
As you probably know, no one can come to God unless the Spirit draws them. What about those whom the Spirit does not draw? Eternal conscious torment?

And if the Elect are those drawn and predestined for eternal life, everyone else was predestined for "hell". Will they never have the opportunity to be drawn?

According to Romans 9.. yes
That is the reality of it.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Some people... were created to be destroyed, so that we might know the wrath of God, and the mercy of God. We cannot appreciate these aspects of God if the vessels of wrath never existed.
If everyone goes to heaven, we don't know the mercy of God, because we're not saved from anything horrible, and we don't know the wrath of God and how much He hates sin. He hates sin so much that He is willing to create people that are doomed to suffer forever just so He can show that aspect of Himself, to point at them and say "I sacrificed this just to show how much I hate sin, and I sacrificed my own Son to save you from that to show just how much I love you"

 

[Jamdoc]

Just because we do not know all the why's and what for's is no reason to question the word of God. Of course that is only my view, every tub sets on its own bottom.

So you're perfectly comfortable and not at all sad, that all sea animals just go extinct, even though they did not sin?
that all things are made new.. except 70% of this planet?

 

[Jamdoc]

That's what it's called. The Babylonian Talmud. Probably because it was written in Babylon. Which is were they ended up because God had given up on them.

God didn't give up on them.
Babylon was chastisement.
They had neglected His law so they needed to be chastised, but He outright says there is a limited time frame for it, and that long term, He has plans for them and that His thoughts for them are of peace.

Jeremiah 29

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
5 Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
7 And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.
8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.
9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the Lord.
10 For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

the Lord is saying, endure my chastisement, it is a lesson you have to learn about respecting me, but I have not given up on you, I'll restore you after you've learned the lesson.

 

[Saint Steven]

According to Romans 9.. yes
That is the reality of it.



Some people... were created to be destroyed, so that we might know the wrath of God, and the mercy of God. We cannot appreciate these aspects of God if the vessels of wrath never existed.
If everyone goes to heaven, we don't know the mercy of God, because we're not saved from anything horrible, and we don't know the wrath of God and how much He hates sin. He hates sin so much that He is willing to create people that are doomed to suffer forever just so He can show that aspect of Himself, to point at them and say "I sacrificed this just to show how much I hate sin, and I sacrificed my own Son to save you from that to show just how much I love you"

Wow.
That's very revealing. Thanks. I appreciate your candor.
But look at what you are declaring about God. Oh my.

- "Some people... were created to be destroyed..."
You could have been one of them. How would feel about God if he did that to you?

-"... so that we might know the wrath of God, and the mercy of God."
Did Jesus save us from God? That's crazy talk.

-"We cannot appreciate these aspects of God if the vessels of wrath never existed."
Of what value is it to appreciate the wrath of God? That's a description of an abusive father. Is that what you think of God our loving heavenly Father?

If God hates sin so much, why did he allow it in the first place? If you really hate something you don't open the doors wide and invite it in.

-"I sacrificed my own Son to save you from that to show just how much I love you."
What sort of gospel is that?
Receive the free gift of eternal life, or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.
Seriously?

Sounds like spiritual extortion. You folks have turned our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather, making us "an offer we can't refuse".

 

[Jamdoc]

Wow.
That's very revealing. Thanks. I appreciate your candor.
But look at what you are declaring about God. Oh my.

- "Some people... were created to be destroyed..."
You could have been one of them. How would feel about God if he did that to you?

-"... so that we might know the wrath of God, and the mercy of God."
Did Jesus save us from God? That's crazy talk.

-"We cannot appreciate these aspects of God if the vessels of wrath never existed."
Of what value is it to appreciate the wrath of God? That's a description of an abusive father. Is that what you think of God our loving heavenly Father?

If God hates sin so much, why did he allow it in the first place? If you really hate something you don't open the doors wide and invite it in.

-"I sacrificed my own Son to save you from that to show just how much I love you."
What sort of gospel is that?
Receive the free gift of eternal life, or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.
Seriously?

Sounds like spiritual extortion. You folks have turned our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather, making us "an offer we can't refuse".

This is not a me making things up based on my own thoughts of God issue. This is scripture.
Paul wrote it under Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and guidance through old testament scripture.

Of course as a sinful human being, I find Romans 9 one of the most difficult passages of scripture to take in, along with the book of Joshua. They are very stark realities to absorb.
But I am a created being, I have to be careful about disagreeing with my creator's judgement in these matters, but He suffers that we do at times question these choices because we lack His eternal perspective.

Ultimately, He is sovereign, and He declares what is morally right and wrong and we are in no position to judge Him. That is why we should fear the Lord.

Think of it this way. Adam and Eve had everything provided for them, they would not die, ALL they knew is the Love of God. God warned them not to do ONE SINGLE THING.. everything else was permitted.
all it took was that one single temptation of one single thing that we were told not to do, and we wanted to do it, because while God said there would be consequences, we thought, God wouldn't really do that... kill us for disobeying Him?
Just one literal devil's advocate saying "Ye shall not surely die"
and we disobey.

We gotta know, that God is more serious than cancer when it comes to His creations, that He gave the free will to disobey Him, actually disobeying Him.

So what Paul was writing in Romans 9, is that it is necessary for some to have been created, for the purpose of showing God's wrath, the consequence of sin, so that those who experience His mercy can appreciate it.

any time you or I, doubt the consequences of our sin, we are saying "Ye shall not surely die".
We would do well to remember what happened in that line of thinking.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ultimately, He is sovereign, and He declares what is morally right and wrong and we are in no position to judge Him. That is why we should fear the Lord.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. (vs 44) And described it as a quality of the heavenly Father. Godliness. (vs 48)

Why would God be held to a lower standard than we are?

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Hmm]

Ultimately, He is sovereign, and He declares what is morally right and wrong and we are in no position to judge

God isn't Kim Jong-un and doesn't just declare anything good that he wants to. If He can, then "good" loses all meaning and our moral values becomes separate from Him and ultimately meaningless. He showed us perfectly what He is like in Jesus so He's not going to suddenly declare that torment and torture are good.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. (vs 44) And described it as a quality of the heavenly Father. Godliness. (vs 48)

Why would God be held to a lower standard than we are?

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Well you're going to have to reconcile that with all the scripture that teaches the wrath of God.

Jesus came once as a suffering servant, the lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world.
But He comes again as a divine warrior, smiting His enemies and shattering the nations like jars of clay with a rod. This is not imagery of gentleness.
In Isaiah 63, and Revelation 19, Jesus is depicted as His clothes are dipped in the blood of His enemies.

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Many people believe that Jesus' blood soaked robe in Revelation 19 is "symbollic of the blood He shed for us". No. It is the blood of His enemies, shed during the wrath of God, when He is alone on Earth, and none of the saints are with Him. What Isaiah describes is meeting Jesus already on Earth, coming from Jordan.
Virtually everyone has interpreted Revelation 19 as Jesus riding down on a white horse from heaven with the saints following Him.
But with Isaiah 63... we see that is not the case. An important detail is overlooked in Revelation 19. That is John is not on Earth seeing the heavens open up above Him and Jesus riding down on a white horse.
John is in heaven, and heaven opens up and He sees Jesus on Earth.
Jesus had already been on Earth, during the wrath of God, and it is not a gentle affair.

We have to learn to accept both aspects of Jesus.
the lamb, and the lion.

 

[Jamdoc]

God isn't Kim Jong-un and doesn't just declare anything good that he wants to. If He can, then "good" loses all meaning and our moral values becomes separate from Him and ultimately meaningless. He showed us perfectly what He is like in Jesus so He's not going to suddenly declare that torment and torture are good.

Suddenly?
He declared that His wrath is righteous from before the world was even created.
I may need to learn to better view the lamb.
But you need to learn to better accept the lion.
It is not all puppy dogs and ice cream.
You do well to say we see perfectly what God is like in Jesus.
But you neglect to understand that the first time Jesus came, it was to save the world. The second time Jesus comes, it is to judge the world.

Luke 12

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Some translations have that as "I wish it were already burning"

This is the patience and temperance of God. To set aside wrath for thousands of years, even though He wanted to bring it then and there.
That is, and often described as such... longsuffering.