Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

That's curious.
How was the Talmud, Babylonian?

That's what it's called. The Babylonian Talmud. Probably because it was written in Babylon. Which is were they ended up because God had given up on them.

 

[Saint Steven]

The invitation is to those whoever will call on the name of the Lord: Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

That's one way to be saved. What does the end of Matthew chapter 25 say about the way to salvation?

 

[Der Alte]

If you look for the origin of Hades and the way Jesus described it, you'll find it in Greek myology. I already said I think Jesus was using Gehenna symbolically based on whatever the scribes and Pharisees made up about Gehenna and put in their Babylonian Talmud. The Talmud is not sacred scripture in any way. If you're going to claim it is in any way, then the whole thing is sacred scripture like the Bible, including what it says about Jesus and Christians, which means you and I are in big trouble.

You need to take a break and calm down. I showed you and all the rest that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal punishment and they called it both Gehenna and Sheol. And I posted the scripture which they based it on. Your Talmud argument is nonsense. The Talmud was NOT the only source I quoted but it agreed with the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. I have never said the Talmud was anything but a historical source. Had you bothered to read my posts you would know this and would not be making such foolish arguments. I think we're done here. You don't even read my posts, and twist what I say. I have better things to do than tolerate this nonsense.

 

[ozso]

You need to take a break and calm down.

You're reading my posts in the wrong voice. Think deadpan.

I showed you and all the rest that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal punishment and they called it both Gehenna and Sheol. And I posted the scripture which they based it on. Your Talmud argument is nonsense. The Talmud was NOT the only source I quoted but it agreed with the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. I have never said the Talmud was anything but a historical source. Had you bothered to read my posts you would know this and would not be making such foolish arguments. I think we're done here. You don't even read my posts, and twist what I say. I have better things to do than tolerate this nonsense.

What you posted are the non-scriptural beliefs, traditions and practices which the Jews developed during the Babylonian captivity and the intertestamental period between the prophets and Jesus, which I acknowledged. The difference is you seem to think such was validated by Jesus, whereas I disagree with that.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus didn't support their non-scriptural beliefs and teachings period. Either that or Jesus supports the Talmud, even though it condemns Him and us.

Nonsense! IOW you don't know what you are talking about. You can't seem to realize that the Talmud was not my only source. And I'm sure that Jesus agreed with the Talmud when it was factual. I quoted the Talmud because it referred to hell. If Jesus disagreed with the Jewish belief in Hell, which they called Gehenna/Sheol, then He would have condemned them instead of using the same language to talk about the same thing.
Jesus warned the Jews about "hell" 15 times, Gehenna 11 times, Hades 4 times and never said it did not exist.

 

[ozso]

Nonsense!

And you're telling me to calm down? lulz.

IOW you don't know what you are talking about. You can't seem to realize that the Talmud was not my only source. And I'm sure that Jesus agreed with the Talmud when it was factual. I quoted the Talmud because it referred to hell. If Jesus disagreed with the Jewish belief in Hell, which they called Gehenna/Sheol, then He would have condemned them instead of using the same language to talk about the same thing.
Jesus warned the Jews about "hell" 15 times, Gehenna 11 times, Hades 4 times and never said it did not exist.

What you posted are the non-scriptural beliefs, traditions and practices which the Jews developed during the Babylonian captivity and the intertestamental period between the prophets and Jesus, which I acknowledged. What parts of the Talmud are factual when it comes to beliefs? What parts of the non-scriptural beliefs the Jews developed during the Babylonian captivity and the intertestamental period are factual? We already know Hades doesn't exist. Probably not even the Greeks believed Hades existed in Jesus' time.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

It isn't fuzzy and is completely, totally covered once, and not needed to be covered a second time, by Moses. Moses mentions/references it as total fact because he read it in Enoch the prophet's writings.
Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam wrote everything down about the Lake of Fire and Sheol/hell, below earth.
Enoch was shown it all, and wrote it all.

 

[ozso]

It isn't fuzzy and is completely, totally covered once, and not needed to be covered a second time by. Moses.
Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam wrote everything down about the Lake of Fire and Sheol/hell, below earth.
Enoch was shown it all, and wrote it all.

@Der Alte are you going to go along with the book of Enoch too?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

@Der Alte are you going to go along with the book of Enoch too?

If you want to know the truth of your OP question, then read the Scripture written by Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam.

 

[ozso]

If you want to know the truth of your OP question, then read the Scripture written by Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam.

I'm not the OP.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

That's one way to be saved. What does the end of Matthew chapter 25 say about the way to salvation?

Make your point clearer so that when I answer others will be able to see which is right about what scripture actually says about the way to salvation, just to give you something to think about, there is only one way to heaven!

 

[Saint Steven]

If you want to know the truth of your OP question, then read the Scripture written by Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam.

Scripture?
Who canonized the Book of Enoch?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If you want to know the truth of your OP question, then read the Scripture written by Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam.

When Moses wrote of it, he did not lay any teaching down about it, because Enoch did it.
When King David and all the prophets wrote about it, they did not lay teaching down about it, because Enoch did it, once.
When Jesus spoke about it, He did not lay down teaching about it, because Enoch did it, once.
When John wrote about it in Revelation, he did not lay down teaching about it, because Enoch the prophet did it, totally, once.

 

[ozso]

When Moses wrote of it, he did not lay any teaching down about it, because Enoch did it.
When King David and all the prophets wrote about it, they dod not lay teaching down about it, because Enoch did it, once.
When Jesus spoke about it, He did not lay down teaching about it, because Enoch did it, once.
When John wrote about it in Revelation, he did not lay down teaching about it, because Enoch the prophet did it, totally, once.

The pseudepigraphical book of Enoch, written during the second century AD.

 

[ozso]

Scripture?
Who canonized the Book of Enoch?

Nobody. And for good reason.

Edit: It's only regarded as scripture by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

 

[Saint Steven]

there is only one way to heaven!

Not according to the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Scripture?
Who canonized the Book of Enoch?

"Who threw it, cast it away from the Church which was under their power", you should ask, and why did those who did it do it several centuries after Jesus Christ established His Church, after His resurrection and ascension to heaven?
Canon is man made rule that changes church to church, as the wind of politics blow, in differing denominations, over the centuries.
There has never been an established rule by concensus of agreement 'canon/rule' of what is "inspired" in all the Church age in all the Churches naming the name of Jesus Christ.
They play politics of power.
And FYI: Enoch is in the canon of the oldest known copy of any Christian denomination, dating to the 400 AD time period, which has the largest "canon" of any Christian denomination in all the Church age.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Not according to the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Those people in that chapter were not entering heaven, but remaining in their own flesh bodies, on earth, to repopulate it for the millennial Sabbath.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The pseudepigraphical book of Enoch, written during the second century AD.

Totally a false statement. It isn't even a "Jewish" book.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I'm not the OP.

I humbly and most sincerely apologize!

 

[Der Alte]

@Der Alte are you going to go along with the book of Enoch too?

Did I quote it somewhere? If not [which is correct] why are you asking me about it?
Get off of the Talmud, already. I did not quote it as scripture, only for its historical information and which you have failed to acknowledge.