Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Hmm]

It's easier to just dismiss something as goofy, rather than put effort into understanding it. Like I said, that's why I stopped arguing with SDAs. Because I had only gone so far with, was only willing to put so much effort into understanding it, that I was getting to the point where I was just bashing for the sake of bashing.

I don't usually bother responding to the guy for that very reason but I decided to this time because his post had inspired me to post a (longer) list of refining fire verses on your new thread: Bible verses you believe clearly support universal salvation. The biblical metaphor of refining fire rather than a literal torturing fire supports universal salvation as against ECT so I thought it was appropriate.

 

[ozso]

I don't usually bother responding to the guy for that very reason but I decided to this time because his post had inspired me to post a (longer) list of refining fire verses on your new thread: Bible verses you believe clearly support universal salvation. The biblical metaphor of refining fire rather than a literal torturing fire supports universal salvation as against ECT so I thought it was appropriate.

Refining fire has always been a pretty common theme in my experience. It's in a lot of worship songs. There are lots of Christian symbols containing fire. There's fire of God symbiology thought the Bible like the Burning Bush, the Pillar of Fire etc.

Seems like some folks think they can easily quickly blast an ancient doctrine out out of the water, and then become irritated and irascible when they're faced with stronger evidence and a tougher battle than they anticipated.

 

[Hmm]

Seems like some folks think they can easily quickly blast an ancient doctrine out out of the water, and then become irritated and irascible when they're faced with stronger evidence and a tougher battle than they anticipated.

And that's a sure sign they've lost the argument, which I think is instructive to anyone who wants to learn about Christian universalism to see, so long may they continue posting on these threads

 

[Hmm]

No parable of Jesus mentions a persons name directly, the Rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. you keep trying to say that Hades isn't Hell, yes it is Hell, the Lake of Fire is also Hell and it is eternal torment (Revelation 20:10) " And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and, as such, you need to be cautious of trying to build an entire doctrine on it, especially when the doctrine, ECT, is not the main point of the parable.

So what is its main point? In the parable, the rich man, suffering in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" (v24). v26 is Abraham's second part of his explanation of why he won't do this: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

Note that Christian universalism doesn't deny that there will be punishment, it just denies that such punishment will last forever. All this part of Abraham's explanation is saying is that while the punishment is on-going, the rich man is not free to leave. Just like school kids are not free to walk out of the class or prisoners can just walk out of prison. Similarly, Lazarus isn't allowed to visit hell.

Saying from this that the rich man will never be free to cross over to heaven is an merely your extrapolation, and one, moreover, that limits the saving power of Christ. Is this really your best case for ECT?

 

[Jamdoc]

It's a pity you think scripture is goofy. Refining fire is used as a metaphor for salvation, e.g. in

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - “For no one can lay another foundation beside the one laid down, which is Jesus the Anointed. Now, if on this foundation one erects gold, silver, precious stones, woods, hay, straw, Each one’s work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire will prove what kind of work each person’s is. If the work that someone has built endures, he will receive a reward; If anyone’s work should be burned away, he will suffer loss, yet he shall be saved, though so as by fire.”

Jeremiah 9:7 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: I will now refine and test them, for what else can I do with my sinful people?”

Malachi 3:2-3 2 “But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,”

And many, many more places.

None of that is in reference to a post death purgatory..

1 Corinthians 3 refers to the bema seat of Christ, where rewards are given out on accounts of works advancing the Kingdom.. this is not judgement for the purpose of damnation or salvation, because it's possible to enter into heaven just with no reward. It's not treated the same way that hell is treated in scripture. The fire is not on you but on your works. The illustration is of a person's home catching fire with all their positions, they escape from the fire but have nothing, all their possessions burn up, but they're alive.

Jeremiah is all about the Babylonian captivity coming on Judah. That is how God chastised the Jews, but to them He promised that this was for their own good, He had a good plan for them, and that His long term plan was for their peace, so to trust Him and endure it in faith.
Here, I'll show you

Jeremiah 29

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
5 Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
7 And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.
8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.
9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the Lord.
10 For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
15 Because ye have said, The Lord hath raised us up prophets in Babylon;

God is saying He's going to punish them, but to endure it, and that it's for their own good, that this will work something to their benefit in the long term.
It's encouragement.

No such encouragement is given in reference to hell, only chastisement or persecution.

Malachi 3 is about the second coming of Jesus and the wrath of God on the Earth after it, the trumpets and bowls from Revelation.
These all take place on Earth... not post death.

The only one of those 3 that could be said to be post death, is 1 Corinthians 3, but again, that's regarding rewards, not the Great White Throne
Paul sometimes made a comparison to Greco-Roman sporting events like the Olympics, where people compete for rewards of laurel crowns. This is one of those illustrations, of an award ceremony, different from the one of final judgement used in Revelation 20.

 

[ozso]

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and, as such, you need to be cautious of trying to build an entire doctrine on it, especially when the doctrine, ECT, is not the main point of the parable.

So what is its main point? In the parable, the rich man, suffering in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" (v24). v26 is Abraham's second part of his explanation of why he won't do this: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

Note that Christian universalism doesn't deny that there will be punishment, it just denies that such punishment will last forever. All this part of Abraham's explanation is saying is that while the punishment is on-going, the rich man is not free to leave. Just like school kids are not free to walk out of the class or prisoners can just walk out of prison. Similarly, Lazarus isn't allowed to visit hell.

Saying from this that the rich man will never be free to cross over to heaven is an merely your extrapolation, and one, moreover, that limits the saving power of Christ. Is this really your best case for ECT?

I think it's mainly about judgement against Israel and the Pharisees and salvation being given to the gentiles. Them inheriting what was only Israel's inheritance.

 

[ozso]

None of that is in reference to a post death purgatory..

1 Corinthians 3 refers to the bema seat of Christ, where rewards are given out on accounts of works advancing the Kingdom.. this is not judgement for the purpose of damnation or salvation, because it's possible to enter into heaven just with no reward. It's not treated the same way that hell is treated in scripture. The fire is not on you but on your works. The illustration is of a person's home catching fire with all their positions, they escape from the fire but have nothing, all their possessions burn up, but they're alive.

Jeremiah is all about the Babylonian captivity coming on Judah. That is how God chastised the Jews, but to them He promised that this was for their own good, He had a good plan for them, and that His long term plan was for their peace, so to trust Him and endure it in faith.
Here, I'll show you

Jeremiah 29


God is saying He's going to punish them, but to endure it, and that it's for their own good, that this will work something to their benefit in the long term.
It's encouragement.

No such encouragement is given in reference to hell, only chastisement or persecution.

Malachi 3 is about the second coming of Jesus and the wrath of God on the Earth after it, the trumpets and bowls from Revelation.
These all take place on Earth... not post death.

The only one of those 3 that could be said to be post death, is 1 Corinthians 3, but again, that's regarding rewards, not the Great White Throne
Paul sometimes made a comparison to Greco-Roman sporting events like the Olympics, where people compete for rewards of laurel crowns. This is one of those illustrations, of an award ceremony, different from the one of final judgement used in Revelation 20.

What do you think about:

47 And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not extinguished. 49 For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Mark 9:47-50

 

[Jamdoc]

What do you think about:

47 And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not extinguished. 49 For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Mark 9:47-50

Given the context, and the severity of what Jesus says to do to avoid going to hell, I do not think that He's talking about the same thing as the salt that preserves against corruption in the world.

If you're connecting the two, then you'd be saying that Jesus warned about hell, using great lengths to avoid it even amputating limbs or gouging out your eye, but then said such a thing is good and used encouragement.
This would be a incongruent message.

"Cut your hand off to avoid going to this place.. but if you go there, it's good, everyone goes there anyway"
Doesn't fit together at all.

 

[ozso]

Given the context, and the severity of what Jesus says to do to avoid going to hell, I do not think that He's talking about the same thing as the salt that preserves against corruption in the world.

If you're connecting the two, then you'd be saying that Jesus warned about hell, using great lengths to avoid it even amputating limbs or gouging out your eye, but then said such a thing is good and used encouragement.
This would be a incongruent message.

"Cut your hand off to avoid going to this place.. but if you go there, it's good, everyone goes there anyway"
Doesn't fit together at all.

What do you think about verse 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire"? I'm not promoting it as a UR verse, I just wonder what you think about it.

 

[Der Alte]

What do you think about verse 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire"? I'm not promoting it as a UR verse, I just wonder what you think about it.

Smart move because it is not a UR verse although UR-ites often quote it out-of-context trying to prop up UR.
Being salted does not impart salvation.
UR-ites quote Mar 9:49, out-of-context, as if it is concrete proof that UR is true.

Mark 9:42-50
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.​

First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?

Ezekiel 43:23-24
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.​

Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers only to followers of Jesus not all mankind.

 

[ozso]

Smart move because it is not a UR verse although UR-ites often quote it out-of-context trying to prop up UR.
Being salted does not impart salvation.
UR-ites quote Mar 9:49, out-of-context, as if it is concrete proof that UR is true.

I don't recall any of them saying it's concrete proof. As a matter of fact you're about the only one I know of who makes claims of supplying irrefutable proof of whatever.

Mark 9:42-50
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.​

First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?

Ezekiel 43:23-24
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.​

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt.​

So vs. 49 refers only to followers of Jesus not all mankind.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't recall any of them saying it's concrete proof. As a matter of fact you're about the only one I know of who makes claims of supplying incontrovertible proof of whatever.
Thanks for sharing.

I don't think I have ever used the word "incontrovertible." I have used the word "irrefutable" and when/where I did has not been refuted. So I must be right. And that referred to quotes from the the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and the Encyclopedia Judaica documenting that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and the Jews called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol written as Gehenna and Hades in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
I have seen Mark 9:49 quoted as "proof" of UR numerous times during my 3+ decades at this forum.

 

[ozso]

I don't think I have ever used the word "incontrovertible." I have used the word "irrefutable" and when/where I did has not been refuted. So I must be right. And that referred to quotes from the the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and the Encyclopedia Judaica documenting that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and the Jews called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol written as Gehenna and Hades in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
I have seen Mark 9:49 quoted as "proof" of UR numerous times during my 3+ decades at this forum.

Yeah I had already switched it to irrefutable. To that I'll add, or words to that effect.

I'm sure most Christians would agree that you can't go wrong with using the Talmud

 

[Der Alte]

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and, as such, you need to be cautious of trying to build an entire doctrine on it, especially when the doctrine, ECT, is not the main point of the parable.
So what is its main point? In the parable, the rich man, suffering in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" (v24). v26 is Abraham's second part of his explanation of why he won't do this: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."
Note that Christian universalism doesn't deny that there will be punishment, it just denies that such punishment will last forever. All this part of Abraham's explanation is saying is that while the punishment is on-going, the rich man is not free to leave. Just like school kids are not free to walk out of the class or prisoners can just walk out of prison. Similarly, Lazarus isn't allowed to visit hell.
Saying from this that the rich man will never be free to cross over to heaven is an merely your extrapolation, and one, moreover, that limits the saving power of Christ. Is this really your best case for ECT?

What a crock of nonsense. Abraham did NOT say "while the punishment is on-going, the rich man is not free to leave," Abraham said, "those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." According to your phony explanation what would keep the one's with Abraham from going to the place where the rich man was? And FYI all of the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, a parable should clarify/explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known or understood. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
•Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah I had already switched it to irrefutable. To that I'll add, or words to that effect.
I'm sure most Christians would agree that you can't go wrong with using the Talmud

What exactly is your problem with the Talmud? Is it or is it not a reliable source for the purpose I quoted it? Or do you even know what that is? I, as the Jews, consider the Talmud a reliable source documenting the historic beliefs and practices of the Jews. You got a problem with that? Can you refute it?

 

[ozso]

What a crock of nonsense.

That's not a very good way to motivate someone to read what you have to say.

 

[Cockcrow]

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and, as such, you need to be cautious of trying to build an entire doctrine on it, especially when the doctrine, ECT, is not the main point of the parable.

So what is its main point? In the parable, the rich man, suffering in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" (v24). v26 is Abraham's second part of his explanation of why he won't do this: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

Note that Christian universalism doesn't deny that there will be punishment, it just denies that such punishment will last forever. All this part of Abraham's explanation is saying is that while the punishment is on-going, the rich man is not free to leave. Just like school kids are not free to walk out of the class or prisoners can just walk out of prison. Similarly, Lazarus isn't allowed to visit hell.

Saying from this that the rich man will never be free to cross over to heaven is an merely your extrapolation, and one, moreover, that limits the saving power of Christ. Is this really your best case for ECT?

Jesus said Hell fire, he never once mentioned Hell as temporary, or the punishment ending one day, he never said that everyone in the world will be saved and go to Heaven. He said Hell fire. Hell is real and Jesus said it lasts forever, he never once hinted at universal salvation, when people die (and they die at all ages) it's either Heaven or Hell, yes Jesus the good shepherd, the all loving God, he is the one who talked about hell more than anyone, the sermon on the mount which people love to talk about, he directly mentioned hell fire. Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29-30

the rich man and Lazarus whether it was a story or a parable or not, it doesn't matter, either way Jesus warned about hell fire. hell is real and people can deny it all they want too but that won't change the fact it exists. and it is waiting on people who won't accept his many warnings about the very real place called Hell. denying it doesn't change anything, if you accept Jesus you must accept everything that he said, and he said Hell fire. yes, Jesus Christ was a hell fire preacher, and that is why I talk about Hell and that it is real. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35

 

[ozso]

What exactly is your problem with the Talmud? Is it or is it not a reliable source for the purpose I quoted it? Or do you even know what that is? I, as the Jews, consider the Talmud a reliable source documenting the historic beliefs and practices of the Jews. You got a problem with that? Can you refute it?

You're the only Christian I know of who feels that way about it.

 

[Der Alte]

You're the only Christian I know of who feels that way about it.

Oh great scholar where would you recommend that someone obtain credible, verifiable, historical evidence about the beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews?

 

[ozso]

Jesus said Hell fire, he never once mentioned Hell as temporary, or the punishment ending one day, he never said that everyone in the world will be saved and go to Heaven. He said Hell fire. Hell is real and Jesus said it lasts forever, he never once hinted at universal salvation, when people die (and they die at all ages) it's either Heaven or Hell, yes Jesus the good shepherd, the all loving God, he is the one who talked about hell more than anyone, the sermon on the mount which people love to talk about, he directly mentioned hell fire. Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29-30

the rich man and Lazarus whether it was a story or a parable or not, it doesn't matter, either way Jesus warned about hell fire. hell is real and people can deny it all they want too but that won't change the fact it exists. and it is waiting on people who won't accept his many warnings about the very real place called Hell. denying it doesn't change anything, if you accept Jesus you must accept everything that he said, and he said Hell fire. yes, Jesus Christ was a hell fire preacher, and that is why I talk about Hell and that it is real. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35

Jesus actually said "gehenna" and "hades".