Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

EOB John 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [fn] to myself fn: Or “all kinds [of people]” (Jews and Gentiles)
We must remember which you seem not to have done is the same Jesus who spoke John 3:2 also spoke Matt 25:46
EOB Matt 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Wrong! Did you really make this patently ridiculous statement? Just because one or more things are obviously figurative, in a particular passage, that does NOT make everything figurative. The actions Jesus mentioned are the results of salvation, they cannot be done to attain salvation.
There are other vss. which address this I have read them, have you? Or do you only read the vss. which when read/quoted out-of-context appear to support UR? I think I read somewhere " Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

I provided what you asked for. So you can stop asking for it.

You know perfectly well that in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus said those who gave someone something to drink would receive eternal life. You can view that passage as literal or as symbolic, but you can't reasonably do both.

 

[earthmover]

The process of translation included comparing manuscript fragments to determine which were the earliest writing dates and seemed most accurate. The best prospects were them used to write a translation.

let me give you and others a short incomplete breakdown of the where the KJV as written by the Church of England came from.

1. We have some 5,800 Greek New Testament Manuscripts. (Institute for New Testament Textual Research. Retrieved November 29, 2015, from http://www.uni-muenster.de/INTF/KgLSGII2010_02_04.pdf)

2.There are also many thousands upon thousands of NT documents (mostly Fragments) dated to the early 1st century. (Thiede, C., & Ancona, M. (1996). The Jesus papyrus. London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson.)

3. "The Oxyrhynichus Papyri are a group of Greek and Latin written
materials found in an ancient garbage dump near the town of Oxyrhynichus
(modern Egyptian Arabic el-Bahnasa) in Upper Egypt.A wide variety ofmaterials were found there, including legal documents, classical works fromSophocles and Euripides, Menander and Euclid, and pieces of the NewTestament. These last include portions of at least 15 canonical books:Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1
and 2 Thessalonians, Hebrews, James, 1 John, Jude and Revelation. Bible
scholars Philip Comfort and Jason Driesbach offer the following list of very
early New Testament papyri from Oxyrhynichus"

*Where We Got Our Bible, pp 69-70
*Comfort, P., & Driesbach, J. (2008). The many Gospels of Jesus: Sorting
out the story of the life of Jesus (p. 49). Carol Stream, Ill.: Tyndale
House.

4. The Chester Beatty Papyri are a collection of manuscripts mostly dated
to the third century, housed partly at the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin,
Ireland and the University of Michigan. This collection contains several
notable papyri:

5.The Dishna Papers/ Bodmer Papyri are a collection of various
manuscripts found in 1952 north of the Dishna Plain in Jabal Abu Manna.
The manuscripts may have been part of the library of fourth century
Pachomian monks in Upper Egypt.

6. The Magdalen Papyrus
One of the best known and most important papyri currently known to us is
P64. It is a piece of the Gospel of Matthew, purchased in Luxor by
missionary Charles Bousfield Huleatt, and given to Magdalen College,
Oxford, where it was catalogued as P. Magdalen Greek 17.The Magdalen
Papyrus includes three fragments which contain a total of 24 lines, written on
both sides in the format of a codex rather than a scroll. The text can be
recognized as a segment of Matthew 26, with verse 23 on one side and verse
31 on the back, and the wording corresponds to the Textus Receptus Biblical
text. The fragments are large enough to discern that the original codex had
two columns with about 35 lines per page. It is one of the oldest codex
fragments in existence. The Barcelona Papyrus, P67, has other fragments of
the Gospel of Matthew that Ramo Roca-Puig argued are from the very same
codex.
*Roca-Puig, R., & Roberts, C. (1962). Un Papiro griego del Evangelio de
San Mateo (2nd ed.). Barcelona: Grafos

I will stop here.....the book I mentioned is worth the 99cents as an ebook. Amazon has it and the reader is also free.


earthmover

 

[earthmover]

I provided what you asked for. So you can stop asking for it.

You know perfectly well that in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus said those who gave someone something to drink would receive eternal life. You can view that passage as literal or as symbolic, but you can't reasonably do both.

Jesus was also talking about those who gave help needed, be it food, drink etc to the Nation of Israel...

Earthmover

 

[Der Alte]

I provided what you asked for. So you can stop asking for it.
You know perfectly well that in Matthew 25:31-46 that Jesus said those who gave someone something to drink would receive eternal life. You can view that passage as literal or as symbolic, but you can't reasonably do both.

Wrong! Total biased nonsense! Deliberate misrepresentation of scripture frantically, vainly trying to make Matt 25:46 support UR.
The fact that vss. 35-45 are figurative does NOT make vs. 46 figurative. If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. Logically an intelligent person knows that myriads of people could not have literally given Jesus water, food, clothing etc. If nothing else there are no vss. stating that Jesus was poor, sick, in prison etc. and myriads of people came and ministered to Him. But there is no such credible, logical reason that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" and "kolasis" does not mean "punishment." See e.g. EOB translation. I would like to see your futile arguments.

 

[ozso]

Jesus was also talking about those who gave help needed, be it food, drink etc to the Nation of Israel...

Some say that. Others say Jesus is talking about aid and comfort given to his disciples. Others say it's about rendering aid and comfort to anyone.

 

[ozso]

Wrong! Total biased nonsense! Deliberate misrepresentation of scripture frantically, vainly trying to make Matt 25:46 support UR.

I did no such thing. You're distorting and deflecting again.

The fact that vss. 35-45 are figurative does NOT make vs. 46 figurative. If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. Logically an intelligent person knows that myriads of people could not have literally given Jesus water, food, clothing etc. If nothing else there are no vss. stating that Jesus was poor, sick, in prison etc. and myriads of people came and ministered to Him. But there is no such credible, logical reason that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" and "kolasis" does not mean "punishment." See e.g. EOB translation. I would like to see your futile arguments.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The whole thing is symbolic and we both know that. And the only thing you even care about regarding it when it comes to arguing against UR, are two words out of a 15 verse passage . Ignoring content to cherry pick a verse is bad enough. But in this case it's cherry picking two words out of a content specific verse.

You know I don't believe that UR is conclusive, I just consider it a possibility. And if you had an actually convincing argument, you might be able to get me to dismiss it as a possibility. But so far you've been pretty much the opposite of convincing to me.

 

[Jamdoc]

Maybe you are looking at it the wrong way. Nothing I have found nor what others (some of them) have found, change anything the Bible already tells those who want to hear the truth. Alas, the Hidden things are represent a fingerprint of GOD, removing all those versions that are changing GOD's WORD for their benefits.

Do you agree that Jesus is on every page of the OT? In Genesis 5 we see "the generations of Adam" does that ring a bell...WHy has God put so many generations and names in these pages?///////

Pro 25:2.."It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Who are these Kings this verse speaks of. It certainly is not the kings of earth but rather those kings in heaven!

In Rev 1:5-6.."And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Earthmover

Maybe not every single page, since uh, page numbers aren't inspired, neither are chapters and verses.
But He is in every single book and frequently, sure. Your page might be different from my page just depending on how the bible was put together.

 

[Saint Steven]

Those last twelve verses have His fingerprints all over it and if one studies it, there is no doubt....Yet, for those versions that say it was not there in the beginning, I can show through History that it was being read from in the early centuries from prominent people.

Not sure about this case, but sometimes there were margin notes added. Those who added them intended for them to be inserted in the text in later copies. So, obviously, the earliest manuscript copies would not contain the margin note. And the fact that it was a margin note proves that it wasn't original to that manuscript copy.

 

[Saint Steven]

OK,,,,let me ask you....Mat had several words in his gospel that was not used in any of the other gospels. To do this, He would have had to write his book LAST in order to make sure these specific words were not found anywhere else.. We can find the same scenario in Mark, Luke and John...Each used words that are not found in any of the other three gospels and they too would have had to written theirs last as well. OOPS how did so many write their books last.....unless their words (letter by letter) was the WORDs of the Author, GOD.!

earthmover

As I understand it, the gospel of Mark was written first with the other two synoptics following later. Besides, I don't think any word changes were an attempt to sidestep a plagiarism charge.

 

[Saint Steven]

exactly.......Jesus tells us that :"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" and He was speaking about the OT as well. Long before the canon was ever thought of.

Earthmover

And the Apocrypha as well? That was in the original canon. In fact there were several canons. (collected writings)

 

[Saint Steven]

I will stop here.....the book I mentioned is worth the 99cents as an ebook. Amazon has it and the reader is also free.

99 cents?
We won't fall for that again. - lol

 

[earthmover]

Maybe not every single page, since uh, page numbers aren't inspired, neither are chapters and verses.
But He is in every single book and frequently, sure. Your page might be different from my page just depending on how the bible was put together.

just the everyday routine bible...and Yes page/chapter are not inspired...

Earthmover

 

[earthmover]

Not sure about this case, but sometimes there were margin notes added. Those who added them intended for them to be inserted in the text in later copies. So, obviously, the earliest manuscript copies would not contain the margin note. And the fact that it was a margin note proves that it wasn't original to that manuscript copy.

About the marginal note..First there were pictures and then indexes, dictionaries, notes at bottom the page and notes in the middle of the page....In most cases these are the publishers notes, etc....The KJV never had these for many many years...I have my grandparents KJV versions the there were no notes....to speak of by the publisher.. Recently, late 20 century, the publishers of the KJV of the Holy Bible (mainly because there is no copywrites)on the KJV. NOTE: the newer study Bibles will tell you that a copywrite is attached to the NOTES and PICs, etc.....but not the WORDs of GOD. Most of the newer versions change the WORDs (supposedly authored by GOD) every time a new publication is written. These are truths, that can be shown from version to version.

earthmover

 

[Fervent]

As I understand it, the gospel of Mark was written first with the other two synoptics following later. Besides, I don't think any word changes were an attempt to sidestep a plagiarism charge.

Markan primacy is built around a circular theory that claims the "later" synoptics are more "developed" in their theology so Mark must have been first. The historical evidence, such as the witness from the Patristics, points to Matthew being the first gospel written. Intertextual evidence also seems to imply that Mark and Luke were working with Matthew and altering their accounts to suit their particular interest in writing.

 

[earthmover]

They were taken out by the gnostics in Alexander. Irenaeus. (A.D. 180) Against Heresies Book III: 12:12. gives us this:
"Since, therefore, they have been deserted by the paternal love, and puffed
up by Satan, being brought over to the doctrine of Simon Magus, they
have apostatized in their opinions from Him who is God, and imagined
that they have themselves discovered more than the apostles, by finding
out another god; and [maintained] that the apostles preached the Gospel
still somewhat under the influence of Jewish opinions, but that they
themselves are purer [in doctrine], and more intelligent, than the
apostles. Wherefore also Marcion and his followers have betaken
themselves to mutilating the Scriptures, not acknowledging some books at
all; and, curtailing the Gospel according to Luke and the Epistles of Paul,
they assert that these are alone authentic, which they have themselves
thus shortened...But all the rest, inflated with the false name of
“knowledge,” do certainly recognise the Scriptures; but they pervert the
interpretations, as I have shown in the first book."

You can also find this book on Amazon Ebooks "Irenaeus Against Heresies" or 99 cents

The three codices – Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus – are called the
“Alexandrian codices” – “Codex A,” “Codex B,” and “Codex Aleph”
respectively – and there is reason to regard them all as corrupt. It is true that
they are very old and complete New Testament manuscripts, but they are all
low-quality documents that were poorly transcribed, and they likely survived
the destruction of the ages due to not being used." Chuck Missler,How We Got out Bible, pp76

"It is undeniable ... that for the last quarter of a century, it has become the
fashion to demand for the readings of Codex B something very like
absolute deference. The grounds for this superstitious sentiment, (for
really I can describe it in no apter way,) I profess myself unable to
discover. Codex B comes to us without a history, without recommendation
of any kind, except that of its antiquity. It bears traces of careless
transcription on every page. The mistakes which the original transcriber
made are of perpetual recurrence."

"n the Gospels alone, Codex B leaves out words or whole clauses no
less than 1,491 times...accounted for by the proximity of a “like”
ending... On the other hand, I can testify to the fact that the codex is
disfigured throughout with repetitions. The original scribe is often found
to have not only written the same words twice over, but to have failed
whenever he did so to take any notice with his pen of what he had done."

(Burgon, J. (1990). Unholy Hands on the Bible (pp. C41-42) (J. Green,Ed.). Lafayette, Ind.: Sovereign Grace Trust Fund")

How we got our Bible---gives us a look at the fingerprint of GOD in those last 12 verses ofMark 16 that at one time was deleted. Now, all versions including the KJV gives a note creating doubt that this were actual verses....yet, with a little searching, one can find that like Irenaeus, these verses were be read in the early centuries. will share them with you sometime.

Earthmover

 

[earthmover]

And the Apocrypha as well? That was in the original canon. In fact there were several canons. (collected writings)

The apocrypha were deemed to be inspired by GOD but as Luther found out everything the ROC did during the dark ages were not necessarily true.

Earthmover

 

[earthmover]

99 cents?
We won't fall for that again. - lol

It is the truth....LOOK to Amazon Ebooks How we Got Our Bible, Chuck Missler,

I can do no more than tell you the truth.

Earthmover.

 

[earthmover]

Markan primacy is built around a circular theory that claims the "later" synoptics are more "developed" in their theology so Mark must have been first. The historical evidence, such as the witness from the Patristics, points to Matthew being the first gospel written. Intertextual evidence also seems to imply that Mark and Luke were working with Matthew and altering their accounts to suit their particular interest in writing.

Then how do you account for the words that only Mat, Mark, Luke and John used in their gospels. would the other writers be smart enough to think that this might spoil their writings is someone knew it.......The only option left is that Jesus is the Author, for only the author of all four gospels would know the words that were and were not used. This comes back to the faith of the Christian....DO you believe that GOD/Jesus is mightly enough to keep puny man from adding or changing His Word....Rem in Rev 22,Jesus gives a pretty bad warning to anyone..

Rev 22:18-19.."For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."


earthmover

 

[Der Alte]

I did no such thing. You're distorting and deflecting again.

You evidently don't even know what that means.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You don't even have that right. Anybody can have their cake and eat it too. The saying is "Eat your cake and have it too.

The whole thing is symbolic and we both know that. And the only thing you even care about regarding it when it comes to arguing against UR, are two words out of a 15 verse passage .

Ignoring content to cherry pick a verse is bad enough. But in this case it's cherry picking two words out of a content specific verse.

Cop-Out! UR-ites want vs 46 to be symbolic because it blows UR not only out of the water but completely out of the universe. Before the argument was "aionios never means eternal it really means the silly expression "age [noun]during [verb]" Now saying it is symbolic when you meant figurative shows how completely bankrupt UR is.

You know I don't believe that UR is conclusive, I just consider it a possibility. And if you had an actually convincing argument, you might be able to get me to dismiss it as a possibility. But so far you've been pretty much the opposite of convincing to me.

I have an unrefuted argument. You certainly haven't refuted it as I have shown.
If Matt 25:46 is figurative, the correct term, not symbolic, it would be shown in the EOB but it is not.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
And they would also know what is and is not figurative.
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., It does NOT mean "prune" or "correction" 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks argue “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is the truth....LOOK to Amazon Ebooks How we Got Our Bible, Chuck Missler,

I can do no more than tell you the truth.

Earthmover.

Relax. It was a joke. The "lol" means laugh out loud.
(in case you didn't know)

Saint Steven said: ↑
99 cents?
We won't fall for that again. - lol