Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Hmm]

Jesus said Hell fire

Where? Chapter and verse please.

Hell is real and Jesus said it lasts forever, he never once hinted at universal salvation

“And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

But please don't let a little thing like the facts stop you.

 

[ozso]

Oh great scholar where would you recommend that someone obtain credible, verifiable, historical evidence about the beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews?

Personally I'd go with Christian theologians and or historians who know all about it. Perhaps a Messianic one like Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

 

[Der Alte]

Where? Chapter and verse please.
“And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)
But please don't let a little thing like the facts stop you.

Did it happen? The instant that Jesus was lifted up did He literally drag all mankind to Himself? Has it happened since Jesus was lifted up, have all mankind been literally dragged to Him?
Was Jesus lying in Matt 7;21-23

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[Der Alte]

Personally I'd go with Christian theologians and or historians who know all about it. Perhaps a Messianic one like Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

Why haven't you? Where would Christian theologians and or historians or Arnold Fruchtenbaum obtain such historical information?

 

[ozso]

Why haven't you? Where would Christian theologians and or historians or Arnold Fruchtenbaum obtain such historical information?

Who says I haven't? I'm pretty sure they go to Christian colleges, universities and seminaries to learn that stuff and get their doctorates.

 

[Der Alte]

Who says I haven't? I'm pretty sure they go to universities and seminaries to learn that stuff and get their doctorates.

And where do universities and seminaries get their historical information about the Jews and their faith and practices? Encyclopedia Britannica was not around BC.

 

[ozso]

And where do universities and seminaries get their historical information about the Jews and their faith and practices? Encyclopedia Britannica was not around BC.

From books that have been written over the centuries by Christians who have doctorates (or similar) and expertise in such matters.

 

[ozso]

Did it happen? The instant that Jesus was lifted up did He literally drag all mankind to Himself? Has it happened since Jesus was lifted up, have all mankind been literally dragged to Him?
Was Jesus lying in Matt 7;21-23

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus can deliver some pretty harsh words at times, like:

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men". Matthew 16:23

 

[Der Alte]

From books that have been written over the centuries by Christians who have doctorates (or similar) and expertise in such matters.

Can you name any?

 

[Fervent]

To me this exchange has been a prefect example of the need for Occam's Razor to be applied: "When faced with two possible explanations, the simpler of the two is the one most likely to be true". Your version of this has gotten increasingly more complicated to me.

Nonsense. Especially because your claim of "figurative" is non-specific. What, exactly, is a figurative meaning for eternal punishment?

It seems to me that if 46 is figurative, it would require a different form of figurative speech than 45 so calling it "figurative" as if there is no change from one to the other is grossly misleading.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus can deliver some pretty harsh words at times, like:
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men". Matthew 16:23

Don't see how this addresses my post.
This vs. was posted as "proof" of UR

“And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)​

I asked, "Did it happen?" The instant that Jesus was lifted up did He literally drag all mankind to Himself? Has it happened since Jesus was lifted up, have all mankind been literally dragged to Him?
When Jesus was lifted up, i.e. crucified all the people on Golgotha were certainly not literally dragged to Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Given the context, and the severity of what Jesus says to do to avoid going to hell, I do not think that He's talking about the same thing as the salt that preserves against corruption in the world.

In this case "salt" is a verb, not a noun.

 

[Cockcrow]

Where? Chapter and verse please.



“And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

But please don't let a little thing like the facts stop you.

Matthew 5:22 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[ozso]

Can you name any?

I'm sure you could look them up as well as I could. Probably most CF members are going balk at your use of the Talmud. As I'm sure you've already experienced.

 

[ozso]

Don't see how this addresses my post.

Oh well I'm sure others do.

This vs. was posted as "proof" of UR

“And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)​

I asked, "Did it happen?" The instant that Jesus was lifted up did He literally drag all mankind to Himself? Has it happened since Jesus was lifted up, have all mankind been literally dragged to Him?
When Jesus was lifted up, i.e. crucified all the people on Golgotha were certainly not literally dragged to Him.

I didn't post that. You're getting mixed up again.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm sure you could look them up as well as I could. Probably most CF members are going balk at your use of the Talmud. As I'm sure you've already experienced.

You brought up "books that have been written over the centuries by Christians who have doctorates (or similar) and expertise in such matters." I assumed you knew what you were talking about evidently you do not.

 

[ozso]

Nonsense. Especially because your claim of "figurative" is non-specific. What, exactly, is a figurative meaning for eternal punishment?

It seems to me that if 46 is figurative, it would require a different form of figurative speech than 45 so calling it "figurative" as if there is no change from one to the other is grossly misleading.

Perhaps the problems you're incurring have to do with trying to use a fragment of a parable about charity to support the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

 

[ozso]

You brought up "books that have been written over the centuries by Christians who have doctorates (or similar) and expertise in such matters." I assumed you knew what you were talking about evidently you do not.

I was answering your questions about how the education system operates as you didn't seem to know how it works. Jewish history isn't my main field of interest. That's your thing in an armchair fashion to make a ham-handed attempt at explaining what Jesus meant when he talked about Gehenna.

 

[Trivalee]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

The concept of heaven and hell are unambiguously stated in scripture. Claims of ambiguity depend on one's level of understanding.

You said: "Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?", this would be a pretty poor idea to serve God. Fortunately, the leave on such a vague and slippery pathway on our Christian journey. Surely, our trust in God which motivates us to persevere against untold trials in our Christian experience has to be anchored on something more concrete than on a concept shrouded in mystery?

In 1 Cor 15:30, Paul asked rhetorically, "And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?" In posing this question, he was trying to demonstrate the unflinching hope of the believer in a better life in the resurrection. Paul alluded that this 'hope' is the cornerstone of our faith. Your question is too broad, I have just tackled it from one perspective and there are more ways to address it.

But if you can be specific with a concern about heaven and earth, it will give me more bone to focus on.

 

[Der Alte]

I was answering your questions about how the education system operates as you didn't seem to know how it works.

I know how thee education system works. Your pitifully, poor excuse is irrelevant. You made a claim about books but you have shown that you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh well I'm sure others do.
I didn't post that. You're getting mixed up again.

But you did quote and respond to a post addressed to Hmm with an irrelevant comment about Jesus using harsh language.