Why is science wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

Come on, it would have probably been more like idol worship, with Hitler as their "god".

And like I said, that is not all that different from the founders of Mormonism and the Witnesses.

 

[goggles]

Who cares really what he believed, it wasn't his motivation for the atrocities he committed, and even if that were the case people like him look for excuses wherever they can get them.

Oh really? You say that like you knew him?

 

[TheBear]

Actually, it wasn't just theism. It was a particular interpretation of Christianity which motivated him. Just like the Westboro Baptist Church, the snake handling churches, etc. They just have their own interpretation of what/who God is.

Bottom line - they're theists. They strongly believe in the existence of God.





But, forget all that. Just for blanks and giggles, let's run with the idea that Hitler was an atheist. What does that have to do with him being an evil and delusional person?

 

[PsychoSarah]

And like I said, that is not all that different from the founders of Mormonism and the Witnesses.

Their founders weren't homicidal though. Nor did they place themselves as gods, perhaps as profits or holy men, but not gods.

 

[goggles]

I had no idea Hitler placed himself as a God.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Oh really? You say that like you knew him?

Done a lot of research into the Holocaust. There are lots of personality profiles of Hitler out there, not one that I have seen that didn't show multiple psychological disorders. In addition, interviews with those that were close to him that survived suggest that he got progressively more nuts over time.

 

[TheBear]

Also, the people of the 3rd Reich, specifically those who carried out the rounding up, the prison conditions, the starvation, the gassing, the eavesdropping on personal conversations, the executions of non-Jewish dissenters, the users of prisoners as medical guinea pigs, and many other human rights atrocities, were all committed by theists, specifically, Catholics.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Also, the people of the 3rd Reich, specifically those who carried out the rounding up, the prison conditions, the starvation, the gassing, the eavesdropping on personal conversations, the executions of non-Jewish dissenters, the users of prisoners as medical guinea pigs, and many other human rights atrocities, were all committed by theists, specifically, Catholics.

In all honesty, I don't really think this is fair.

The further back in time you go, the more religious people get. If 90% of people are catholics (or call themselves catholics), it's a logical consequence that attrocities committed during those times are mostly done by catholics.

And the opposite is also true.

I don't really think you meant to say that they did these things "because they are catholics" though. But I just wanted to clarify.

Most certainly, some people's attrocities are direct results of the things they believe... Like the actions of the inquisition and the muslim terrorists and stuff. Sure.

But this is not always the case. Especially the wars of the past 2 centuries... those were primarily about a clash of political ideologies, racism and imperialistic aspirations. Religion had very little to do with those.

What is universally true though, is that atheist can never be blamed for anything. Nobody engages in actions because "he does NOT believe x"

You don't act according to what you don't believe. You act according to what you do believe.

This alone excludes atheism as being the cause or motivation of any action at all (good OR bad). Every time an atheist does something good or bad, his reasons/motivations of doing that thing will not be found in his atheism.

 

[Stanlee2]

The real question should be, were these people motivated to do what they did because of there beliefs or not?
Did Stalin kill so many people because he had a moustache or because he was made a killer by his upbringing?
Did Hitler use the bully boys to get what he wanted? did he use fear and hate? or was it because he had a moustache?

 

[goggles]

It's because of the moustache. It is always the moustache.

 

[mzungu]

In all honesty, I don't really think this is fair.

The further back in time you go, the more religious people get. If 90% of people are catholics (or call themselves catholics), it's a logical consequence that attrocities committed during those times are mostly done by catholics.

And the opposite is also true.

I don't really think you meant to say that they did these things "because they are catholics" though. But I just wanted to clarify.

Most certainly, some people's attrocities are direct results of the things they believe... Like the actions of the inquisition and the muslim terrorists and stuff. Sure.

But this is not always the case. Especially the wars of the past 2 centuries... those were primarily about a clash of political ideologies, racism and imperialistic aspirations. Religion had very little to do with those.

What is universally true though, is that atheist can never be blamed for anything. Nobody engages in actions because "he does NOT believe x"

You don't act according to what you don't believe. You act according to what you do believe.

This alone excludes atheism as being the cause or motivation of any action at all (good OR bad). Every time an atheist does something good or bad, his reasons/motivations of doing that thing will not be found in his atheism.

Political manipulation through whatever the people believe in is the core of the problem here. When politics are mixed the variables "POWER & MONEY" then we have as a result all manner of crimes conducted against peoples, nations, races.

Had the allies not forced Germany to pay reparations for WW1 to the point of causing untold hardship and economic collapse then Hitler would not have had the podium to stand on and bring about WW2.

I can see it happening in my country where the austerity measures are such that people are turning to the NAZI party because the NAZI party is the only one that promises direct action! The NAZI party is now 3rd and this in a country that lost more than 11% of its population to the NAZIS in WW2.

The people are the victims of power hungry despots be they theists or not.

 

[Stanlee2]

It's because of the moustache. It is always the moustache.

You would be surprise at the number people who don't know that, sheltered people admittedly.

 

[goggles]

Also, the people of the 3rd Reich, specifically those who carried out the rounding up, the prison conditions, the starvation, the gassing, the eavesdropping on personal conversations, the executions of non-Jewish dissenters, the users of prisoners as medical guinea pigs, and many other human rights atrocities, were all committed by theists, specifically, Catholics.

Where did you get that from, have you got a source?

I don't know a lot about religion and Nazi Germany but I do believe most of the people in Nazi Germany were Christian, specifically protestant and catholic. Adolf Hitler did not believe in God , he believed in pseudo-science and had an idiotic, ridiculous, fatalistic (and so on) interpretation of it.

In fact just briefly reading about it, he appealed to conservative Christians like those on this site because he appealed to the traditional values they held so dear. Yeah I know, you can play the "he tricked us, he's the Antichrist" card and you know what, you'd be right.

 

[Stanlee2]

Political manipulation through whatever the people believe in is the core of the problem here. When politics are mixed the variables "POWER & MONEY" then we have as a result all manner of crimes conducted against peoples, nations, races.

Had the allies not forced Germany to pay reparations for WW1 to the point of causing untold hardship and economic collapse then Hitler would not have had the podium to stand on and bring about WW2.

I can see it happening in my country where the austerity measures are such that people are turning to the NAZI party because the NAZI party is the only one that promises direct action! The NAZI party is now 3rd and this in a country that lost more than 11% of its population to the NAZIS in WW2.

The people are the victims of power hungry despots be they theists or not.

Very true, but what is the answer? every hardship or weakness is targeted by power hungry despots.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Hitler thought he was acting for the best. He believed his ideology was on the side of good, not evil. He thought he was fighting against evil.

I just thought it was worth mentioning as it's easy to forget sometimes because we all think of him as the ultimate bad guy.

 

[goggles]

The real question should be, were these people motivated to do what they did because of there beliefs or not?
Did Stalin kill so many people because he had a moustache or because he was made a killer by his upbringing?
Did Hitler use the bully boys to get what he wanted? did he use fear and hate? or was it because he had a moustache?

Answer:

Hitler thought he was acting for the best. He believed his ideology was on the side of good, not evil. He thought he was fighting against evil.

I just thought it was worth mentioning as it's easy to forget sometimes because we all think of him as the ultimate bad guy.

Thank you.

 

[TheBear]

In all honesty, I don't really think this is fair.

The further back in time you go, the more religious people get. If 90% of people are catholics (or call themselves catholics), it's a logical consequence that attrocities committed during those times are mostly done by catholics.

And the opposite is also true.

I don't really think you meant to say that they did these things "because they are catholics" though. But I just wanted to clarify.

Most certainly, some people's attrocities are direct results of the things they believe... Like the actions of the inquisition and the muslim terrorists and stuff. Sure.

But this is not always the case. Especially the wars of the past 2 centuries... those were primarily about a clash of political ideologies, racism and imperialistic aspirations. Religion had very little to do with those.

What is universally true though, is that atheist can never be blamed for anything. Nobody engages in actions because "he does NOT believe x"

You don't act according to what you don't believe. You act according to what you do believe.

This alone excludes atheism as being the cause or motivation of any action at all (good OR bad). Every time an atheist does something good or bad, his reasons/motivations of doing that thing will not be found in his atheism.

I never said or implied that they committed those atrocities because they were Catholics. I'm just highlighting the fact that people committing evil acts aren't, by default, atheists. Maybe it came out wrong. Sorry about that.

 

[Stanlee2]

Even to suggest that these people did what they did because of a lack of belief in a particular religion is just creationists trying to turn Atheism into a dirty word, as it stands now Atheism is just another word for sanity.

I suppose desperation calls for desperate measures, when something has absolutely nothing going for it it's quite reasonable to find people clutching at anything, led on of course by the ever present professionals, if creationist ever slow down professionals are always on hand to wind them up again and get them back into the fight.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Even to suggest that these people did what they did because of a lack of belief in a particular religion is just creationists trying to turn Atheism into a dirty word, as it stands now Atheism is just another word for sanity.

I suppose desperation calls for desperate measures, when something has absolutely nothing going for it it's quite reasonable to find people clutching at anything, led on of course by the ever present professionals, if creationist slow down professionals are always on hand to wind them up again and get them back into the fight.

I agree with you on this for the most part, apart from the "atheism is another word for sanity" deal. I know atheists who believe earth is essentially an alien science project and that human evolution is partly guided by aliens like dog evolution was guided by humans

Others that believe in ghosts

And a whole ton of conspiracy theories

Atheism doesn't translate to having positive traits any more than it translates to having negative ones.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Atheism doesn't translate to having positive traits any more than it translates to having negative ones.

Absolutely correct.

Atheism does not have a monopoly on rational thinking.

At best, we can say that atheist are rational as far as theistic claims go.

Next to that, atheists are perfectly capable of being irrational fruitcakes.

Indeed, just look at atheists like Stalin and the current dictator in North Korea. Their "fruitcakeness" is very much on par with the fruitcake level of people like Bin Laden for sure.

Atheism is an empty word. It only tells you what people do NOT believe about a specific topic. It doesn't tell you anything else.