Why is Hell permanent?

[Sadalmelik]

torment not torture
this was a previous topic, and seeing that the greek words for torture are not the same as torment I would expand upon this topic....

from
PleaseConvinceMe Blog: Torture, or Torment? Is there a Difference?

On a recent Stand to Reason podcast, a caller challenged Greg Koukl as to the nature of hell, arguing that a loving God could not engage in eternal torture. Greg rightly drew the distinction between torture, which implies a certain motive or sick pleasure on the part of the doer, and torment, which does not. Drawing on the symbol of fire, the caller pressed the point, asking how causing someone to burn eternally and to experience the pain and agony of burning could not be characterized as torture.

This is a good question, and a very difficult challenge for the Christian apologist to meet. After all, Jesus used similar imagery, when He compared Hell to the perpetual fires ...outside Jerusalem, in the place called Gehenna.

The response to this challenge requires us to tease out the assumption that the question contains. By asserting that God “causes” someone to burn eternally and that God “inflicts agony,” the question compels the answer that yes, this would be torture. The real issue, though, is whether God does those things to the souls in Hell, or whether those lost souls experience an everlasting torment that is a consequence – and not a separate goal - of the fact that they are in Hell.

In the Civil War, doctors treated most bullet wounds to an arm or leg by amputating the limb, no doubt an excruciating experience in the days before anesthetics. But these actions were done not to torture the patient but to accomplish some good purpose – namely, to save him. The patient no doubt felt tormented, but this was a natural consequence of the necessary action that was taken; it would not be fair to say the doctor had engaged in torture. On the other hand, if one side had taken perfectly healthy prisoners of war and amputated a limb to inflict pain, either to coerce cooperation or as a method of terror, this would indeed be torture. Similarly, if a modern surgeon decided to amputate without anesthetics, it would be fair to characterize such actions as torture.

Christians believe that God is all good and that whatever he creates must also be good. Hell is a place of separation He has created for those deserving of such separation. Hell must be good and must serve a good purpose. But if Hell is a place in which God actively inflicts agony simply to terrorize or for some other evil purpose, then Hell cannot be a good place, and God cannot be good. Alternatively, if God could accomplish His legitimate purpose of separating wrongdoers from Him without inflicting the level of torment that exists in Hell, then, once again, it would seem evil to inflict such agony.

How, then, does orthodox Christianity makes sense of this place called Hell?

I submit that the answer lies in understanding that the torment spoken of is the natural consequence of the legitimate end God accomplishes with Hell, and not a separate, sadistic purpose to inflict agony. What is that end? Separation from Him. And what is He? Perfection. Absolute, unlimited, infinite perfection, the kind that we as human beings cannot even begin to fathom. Remember your first love? Or the way you felt when you beheld your first child? Or reuniting with your spouse after a period apart? Conversely, can you recall the first time you were homesick, or the first time you experienced the death of a loved one? Now magnify these feelings – not by a hundred, a thousand, or even a billion, but by infinity, and by eternity. Start to get the picture? If the “goodness” of the people we love can cause us such torment when we are separated from them, and if that goodness is a mere shadow of the infinite perfection of God, then I shudder to imagine what knowing but not be able to experience the infinite beauty and pefection of God would be like.
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i read up till the point where i got to blaming the wicked for something God, thought up Himself (according to eternal hellfirists), the orthodox side always uses the arguement, 'well its not God deciding this, its the wicked deciding their own fate, they are the ones that choose hell', this arguement fails in numerous aspects, primarily with the fact that hell could have been anything, there are millions of different things that it could have been, Gods mind is unlimited......and this is what He chose? to burn people alive without end. which is the worst form of pain imaginable to man, and it never ends........so instead of choosing something that falls more in line with what humans understand to be loving, merciful, and just.....the idea of an eternal hellfire fails on all characteristics. while i realize many orthodox find it loving, merciful, and just to fry someone with no end, i dont.....and i dont see many examples of this kind of love, mercy, justice, and compassion shown to people in this life so dont say, thats just my opinion, i obviously am not in the minority on this.......by frying them.......the closest example we have is hitler....and most sane people dont find what he did, loving, merciful, just.

there is no getting around the arguement that this is what God chose(supposedly), to be the final 'resting' place for the wicked.....an eternal hellfire, would not make itself, did it, or perhaps i missed that while reading my bible., if it exists in the universe, outside of human control, it exists because of God. period, there is no getting around that. so the tactic of trying to shift the responsibility of hell existing, to the wicked, fails, and the arguement of trying to shift the responsibility to the wicked, and that they choose to get burned alive for all eternity, is therefore proposterous, and fails.


im amazed at how many times this arguement is used, and it truly is about the weakest arguement on the orthodox side of things that there is. no the wicked would not choose this as their fate, they may not choose Jesus, and are therefore not worthy of eternal life, but none of them would choose to be burned alive, physically, mentally, etc, for all eternity, with no end. so sorry, this arguement is weak at best. they would not choose this, in fact, it would be the last option they would choose, out of about a billion possible outcomes.

 

[createdtoworship]

i read up till the point where i got to blaming the wicked for something God, thought up Himself (according to eternal hellfirists), the orthodox side always uses the arguement, 'well its not God deciding this, its the wicked deciding their own fate, they are the ones that choose hell', this arguement fails in numerous aspects, primarily with the fact that hell could have been anything, there are millions of different things that it could have been, Gods mind is unlimited......and this is what He chose? to burn people alive without end. which is the worst form of pain imaginable to man, and it never ends........so instead of choosing something that falls more in line with what humans understand to be loving, merciful, and just.....the idea of an eternal hellfire fails on all characteristics. while i realize many orthodox find it loving, merciful, and just to fry someone with no end, i dont.....and i dont see many examples of this kind of love, mercy, justice, and compassion shown to people in this life......by frying them.......the closest example we have is hitler....and most sane people dont find what he did, loving, merciful, just.

there is no getting around the arguement that this is what God chose(supposedly), to be the final 'resting' place for the wicked.....an eternal hellfire, would not make itself, did it, or perhaps i missed that while reading my bible., if it exists in the universe, outside of human control, it exists because of God. period, there is no getting around that. so the tactic of trying to shift the responsibility of hell existing, to the wicked, fails, and the arguement of trying to shift the responsibility to the wicked, and that they choose to get burned alive for all eternity, is therefore proposterous, and fails.

what if Our prison systems came up with a worse punishment than God's? Wouldn't we be more afraid of man than God? I think God chose burning sulfer for a reason. To be the Best!

 

[Sadalmelik]

what if Our prison systems came up with a worse punishment than God's? Wouldn't we be more afraid of man than God? I think God chose burning sulfer for a reason. To be the Best!

civilized society, as we and other countries are, would never subscribe to anything even remotely close to the orthodox version of hell, let alone worse than it......

im happy for you that you are content worshipping a god that you find to be the best at torturing, or was it tormenting people.

again, it is becoming very clear to me, the more i talk with orthodox hell supporters, why they believe what they do. and it has far more to do with things other than i previously thought, that they were just falsely taught a false doctrine.....there is indeed a lot more to it than that, and quite frankly, it scares me.

 

[Sadalmelik]

if you take away the crutch, they fall!!!

and btw, i will debate you all day on this subject, and imo, i dont use or need a crutch, you can continue to use your tactics of castagating me as someone who has no clue.....my arguements stand on their own, i dont have to keep running to my bible, to 'try' to support my beliefs.

the Holyspirit does just fine guiding me in the correct way to think about Him, and which words i use.....i am not threatened or offended by you, your words, pov, or attacking me, it bothers me, not.

the characteristics of love, mercy, and justice help me to do just fine also.....according the orthodox view of hell, these traits of us humans are thrown out the window when it comes to how God views things.....if we cant rely on what we believe to be love, mercy, and justice....what can we rely on? anything? we might as well throw everything out, and just go insane in the process.

 

[Sophrosyne]

if you take away the crutch, they fall!!!

yes, and then they claim you caused the injury they need the crutch for in the first place and deny they need the crutch... at the same time.

 

[createdtoworship]

yes, and then they claim you caused the injury they need the crutch for in the first place and deny they need the crutch... at the same time.

you pushed! They'll say....

 

[Sophrosyne]

you pushed! They'll say....

Yup, God pushed those people to reject him so he is not allowed to send them to hell. God made sure their friends and family and distant relatives hid the secret about him from everyone around them so they could enjoy hell just like they do. Everyone who suffers in hell can blame God and because they suffer in hell it must all be torture because a loving God won't allow suffering. Did Jesus deserve the agony he suffered tortured on the cross? If God himself doesn't deserve to suffer but tortures himself undeservedly then I see no reason he cannot torture those in hell undeservedly for rejecting him.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Yup, God pushed those people to reject him so he is not allowed to send them to hell. God made sure their friends and family and distant relatives hid the secret about him from everyone around them so they could enjoy hell just like they do. Everyone who suffers in hell can blame God and because they suffer in hell it must all be torture because a loving God won't allow suffering. Did Jesus deserve the agony he suffered tortured on the cross? If God himself doesn't deserve to suffer but tortures himself undeservedly then I see no reason he cannot torture those in hell undeservedly for rejecting him.

while Jesus did indeed suffer beyond comprehension, it wasnt for all eternity was it, and btw, just for your info....

Jesus suffered for a purpose, to save man, from sin/separation from God.
once again, we go back to the arguement i make over and over, that some seem not to be able to comprehend. it was for a reason, a purpose!

Jesus's crucifixtion, not for eternity, and for a purpose

mythical eternal hellfire, for eternity, and for no purpose

great analogy.

 

[Sadalmelik]

and btw, i never said the wicked dont deserved to be punished, just because the only just punishment you believe in, would be to burn someone alive for all eternity, doesnt mean thats what God has to do.., nor will He, cause the bible says the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell forever,,,,,

if that were the case, romans 6:23 would have said....'the wages of sin is suffering in a fire pit for all eternity without end. it doesnt say that. it says the wages of sin is death.

so you see, i dont say the wicked wont get punished, or are undeservedly punished, this is just another tactic of those on the orthodox side of the aisle, that try to put words into the other sides mouth and say they said things they didnt say, i call it deflection, and it dont work, everyone can see right thru it.

 

[Timothew]

if you take away the crutch, they fall!!!

How old are you?

 

[createdtoworship]

How old are you?

surprised by our wit and humor? Ah!

 

[Hillsage]

if that were the case, romans 6:23 would have said....'the wages of sin is suffering in a fire pit for all eternity without end. it doesnt say that. it says the wages of sin is death.

And since orthodoxy most certainly believes that Jesus 'paid the price for sin' we are simply left to wonder as to when was that price was changed?

 

[Timothew]

And since orthodoxy most certainly believes that Jesus 'paid the price for sin' we are simply left to wonder as to when was that price was changed?

Inflation affects all the prices.

 

[createdtoworship]

civilized society, as we and other countries are, would never subscribe to anything even remotely close to the orthodox version of hell, let alone worse than it......

im happy for you that you are content worshipping a god that you find to be the best at torturing, or was it tormenting people.

again, it is becoming very clear to me, the more i talk with orthodox hell supporters, why they believe what they do. and it has far more to do with things other than i previously thought, that they were just falsely taught a false doctrine.....there is indeed a lot more to it than that, and quite frankly, it scares me.

if people could live longer and endure longer (eternity of) sentencing you can bet your bottom dollar that our government would also sentence eternally too. God's just one up on the whole thing.

 

[Timothew]

if people could live longer and endure longer (eternity of) sentencing you can bet your bottom dollar that our government would also sentence eternally too. God's just one up on the whole thing.

You must be very proud of him for that.

 

[Sophrosyne]

if people could live longer and endure longer (eternity of) sentencing you can bet your bottom dollar that our government would also sentence eternally too. God's just one up on the whole thing.

I brought up an argument based upon that idea also and was ignored. A previous argument about punishment vs God's "Love" I brought up but someone here couldn't even bear to answer my questions regarding it... not even one of them instead I got preached to.

 

[Sadalmelik]

no preaching here, just exposing orthodox view of hell for what it really is...apparently some cant handle that, not surprised, id be embarrased too, if i believed in the some of the stuff thats been presented here, and someone pointed out what it really means to believe in the mythical idea of eternal hellfire.

 

[createdtoworship]

You must be very proud of him for that.

Doesn't that just sound like God, the best at what He does? What if He just killed humans for sinning. Thats not the best! We do that every day with capital punishment! We are as just as God is! If that was the case, but it's not. God burns with Holy Fire. We can't do that.

 

[Sadalmelik]

You must be very proud of him for that.

he is, did you forget this.....

what if Our prison systems came up with a worse punishment than God's? Wouldn't we be more afraid of man than God? I think God chose burning sulfer for a reason. To be the Best!

to be the best at torturing someone.
unbelievable, i cannot even believe what i read in this forum.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Doesn't that just sound like God, the best at what He does? What if He just killed humans for sinning. Thats not the best! We do that every day with capital punishment! We are as just as God is! If that was the case, but it's not. God burns with Holy Fire. We can't do that.