Why is Hell permanent?

[Stealth001]

everyone has the Logos, because we are all made in His image, though we may be distorted, we still have enough logos in our soul to see what is right and what is wrong, if she tried to live the best she can and never had a chance to know who Jesus Christ was in this life, then does that really mean that she will not be with the angels in heaven if she was an angel in this earth?

what would stop her? a mere "I don't know who i love but I do love him even though i don't know his name"?

not logical to me, Christ is the logos and reason and many many other things.

contemplate that God could have kept her blind from Jesus Christ because if she started to believe in Him she would go to some chruch, and then the next thing you know she is swallowed up by the congregation of the wicked and then her good soul and spirit get distorted by hypocrisy and a ton of false doctrine and so she ended up being worse than if she had just not known Jesus Christ. but she did know him in her heart indeed if she was an image of the saints and the grace of God put a good angel over her and she often listened to it more than many christians listen to their own good angels.

I would say that a one such as that would be welcomed by the angels and Christ when she dies.

I do see your logic. However, personally, I'm not that liberal in my approach.

 

[Noxot]

I do see your logic. However, personally, I'm not that liberal in my approach.

I prefer the term "merciful and loving" rather than liberal

or even better, "liberally merciful and liberally loving"

what if Jesus judgment said:
i will make her into an low ranking angel and she will server her country that needs help, she shall have a greater reward if she does such deeds and she can now know Jesus Christ and tell others in her former abode on the earth.

maybe i'm just psychotic! or maybe I want to theorize-contemplate stuff that happens after you die. the unseen things that happen are far more than what we do see here in this earth. there are so many angels all around us and yet we are so ignorant about them and what God makes them do!

 

[dollarsbill]

And you've been repeating yourself forever and ever. lol

Do you expect God's Word to change?????????

Eternal punishment is ETERNAL = NEVER ending.

 

[Noxot]

Do you expect God's Word to change?????????

Eternal punishment is ETERNAL = NEVER ending.

so you are not willing to admit that you may not understand what the bible says?

don't worry most of us are blind anyways. lets all fall into a pit, and God will burn us all forever and ever because we are poor blind fools and we all hurt so much inside and yet Gods cure is for us to suffer forever.

that makes sense! we are in so much pain so we get more and more pain! sign me up, throw me into the lake of fire already. wish I would hurry and get there if god is as terrible as some people say he is! wish god would strike me down right now if he is as cruel as what you say he is. because I deserve hell so much for my sins I do against God.

do me a favor and pray to God to kill me, because I don't want to exist if God refuses to cure me and my brothers.

 

[dollarsbill]

so you are not willing to admit that you may not understand what the bible says?

How can I if you don't quote any Scripture????????????? Am I a mind reader?

 

[Noxot]

How can I if you don't quote any Scripture????????????? Am I a mind reader?

no please since you are saved and know the scriptures so well and I deserve eternal punishment, pray to god to hasten it on me, i want to go into my final state that i deserve because there is no way I will be able to please jesus when i think he tortures forever some of his own creatures. I think I belong in hell, after all I have no self esteem at all that i can please jesus. I deserve to suffer forever because i'm going more and more blind.

yeah i am really starting to hate myself a lot right now, I should just go suffer in hell forever because I hate myself. I wish someone would love me though and tell me they would make me better but I instead am stuck hearing things like god is going to make me suffer because I am not worth trying to save since I mess up so much. I wish I could kill myself but i don't want to hurt those around me, woe is me for having to exist with hearing such painful lies. I guess my reward will be to SUFFER FOREVER IN AGONY.

I wish I had God to save me from such pain but all i hear is that he is going to delete those of us who got into a worse state rather than a better state. my poor suffering brothers and sisters like me, we are all doomed, I am sorry that god does not love us enough to save us from our own lies and hurts. that is what it seems like anyways! the worse sinner is the one who hurts the most and instead of mercy and love he shall receive eternal torments forever and ever, I wish I had someone to save me from all the lies that keep searing my conscience to nothing but hurt and pain.

i wish there was a kind God past mans understanding that would save me from this wicked god of the world that says that my creator is not all-loving. so many people here on the earth do not follow the god of the world because they see how wicked and cruel he is. those are sometimes more closely my brothers and sisters than the ones that go by the name of christian often times.

but then i take a step back and see that most people on the earth are just trapped in a complex web of lies. and it all works together to keep people out of the kingdom of heaven. and everyone must be my brother and sister and I don't want anyone to be lost, JESUS if they are lost then let me be lost too, I don't deserve anything anyways, i'm just wicked and I hate myself anyways, and I can't come near you because you are too good for me.

 

[Sadalmelik]

No vaporizing. Just torment in the fire, FOREVER.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So... Jonah says he saw the mountains of the deep... but he really didn't. He was just "delirious"? lol

Was Jesus "delirious" about his death? Nope.

Just face it... Jonah died and cried out from the grave (the state of death) and God revived him to be spat out on dry land to carry on the mission.

revived doesn't mean dead, resurrected does though in most cases. The experience he had to me represented him not being totally dead if it wasn't a vision to begin with and carried on for long enough which would cut into the 3 days and nights and thus the valid comparison falls flat as it would end up 2 days and 2 nights instead. In other words unless he died as fast in the fish as Jesus did on the cross then you have a "just as" problem.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I constantly see this disconnect in here:
1)A God who tortures temporarily is "Loving"
but
2)A God that tortures forever is "Evil" and "Sadistic" etc

both "Gods" in this example "torture" to begin with but because one of them stop after awhile he suddenly is "Loving".
I can't connect the logic myself.... "torture" is torture be it 1 day or a billion either God can "torture" and be "Loving" for 1 day the same as forever in the act or God cannot do so. The problem is that time seems to be able to change God from "Loving" to "Evil" but the bible says God cannot change.
See the problem?

 

[Sadalmelik]

I constantly see this disconnect in here:
1)A God who tortures temporarily is "Loving"
but
2)A God that tortures forever is "Evil" and "Sadistic" etc

both "Gods" in this example "torture" to begin with but because one of them stop after awhile he suddenly is "Loving".
I can't connect the logic myself.... "torture" is torture be it 1 day or a billion either God can "torture" and be "Loving" for 1 day the same as forever in the act or God cannot do so. The problem is that time seems to be able to change God from "Loving" to "Evil" but the bible says God cannot change.
See the problem?

if you dont understand the difference between corrective punishment, and punishment which serves no purpose (ie, eternal hellfire), then i couldnt help you with that one.....it would be beyond my logic, and intellect, to try to understand someone who could not understand the difference between a parent spanking their child for 10 seconds to CORRECT THEM, or spanking them for their entire life, for a mistake......what dont you get?

 

[1234321]

if you dont understand the difference between corrective punishment, and punishment which serves no purpose (ie, eternal hellfire), then i couldnt help you with that one.....it would be beyond my logic, and intellect, to try to understand someone who could not understand the difference between a parent spanking their child for 10 seconds to CORRECT THEM, or spanking them for their entire life, for a mistake......what dont you get?

Maybe it is because, relatively speaking, since spirits don't really die (unless God destroys them, and He isn't in the business of destroying spirits,) the "eternal" relative punishment is still like a spanking, just a spiritually corrective one. If a spirit lives 10^500 years, then "10 seconds of spanking" for a human with an 80 year lifespan is still ~10^488 years of corrective punishment in the spirit.That is more or less eternal.

 

[he-man]

Maybe it is because, relatively speaking, since spirits don't really die (unless God destroys them, and He isn't in the business of destroying spirits,) the "eternal" relative punishment is still like a spanking, just a spiritually corrective one. If a spirit lives 10^500 years, then "10 seconds of spanking" for a human with an 80 year lifespan is still ~10^488 years of corrective punishment in the spirit.That is more or less eternal.

What do you mean spirits do not really die? Only God has immortality.

What do you mean "He isn't in the business of destroying spirits"
There are no immortal spirits, only God has immortality.

God is in the business of affording grace to those who accept his Son, Jesus, and those who obey the commandments,

Those who choose not to obey are eternally destroyed. If they at first chose to obey but the rejected the truth, they are in for the Judgement and second death.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;

Php 3:18 (for many walk of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and their glory in their shame, who mind earthly things

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

Luk 12:46 the lord of that bondman shall come in a day when he does not expect it, and in an hour he knows not of, and shall cut him in two and appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

Rev 21:8 But to the fearful and unbelieving, and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Psa 37:9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait on Jehovah, they shall possess the land.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked is not; and thou considerest his place, but he is not.

1Co 15:20 (But now Christ is raised from among the dead, first-fruits of those fallen asleep

 

[Ronald]

A question I have been asking myself lately...

Why is damnation in hell permanent? Why not another chance after a certain duration of punishment?

It may not be. Eternal is an English word that is translated from the word aeon or aeonios. These words are used with variable meanings. When applied to God or His domain, it means forever. Concerning our salvation, it means forward in time infinitely. But in many instances when describing things that are made which are temporal and part of the earth, it means a generation(s), an age or ages, a lifetime, an epoch but all of these are temporal and come to an end. If Hades is part of the earth, which I think it is, at the end of the age, Hades and death are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and destroyed. Now destroy means just that, to put an end to, exterminate, annihilate. Traditional Christianity has attached this extended, never-ending meaning to it. It's like an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing which are contradictions. If you burn a piece of paper, you destroy it. It becomes ashes, it can't be destroyed continuously. Punishment can go on continuously, but that is a different word. If you view this Lake of Fire as an event that happens at the end of the age when the first heaven and earth pass away in a fervent heat along with all who are in Hades and unregenate alive at the time, then it too will pass away.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Rev. 20:14
I do believe the fire is literal and the bodies thrown in are physical as well.

"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, ..." Rev. 21:1
The former earth is physical and it is physically burned.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." 2 Pet. 3:10
Now is the earth going to continue to be destroyed and burned forever? No.


"...looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?" 2 Pet. 3:12


“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." Isaiah 65:17

Finally, God will destroy both body and soul in Hell ( lake of fire), otherwise this next verse is an empty threat.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt 10:28
Another translation:
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. YLT
The Gehenna became an actual burning dump of criminals, diseased bodies and dead animals. In ancient times, child sacrifices to Molech were made there (Jer. 32:35). It became a kind of perpetual dump from which many concepts of Hell come from. It was a physical area outside Jerusalem. Jesus cursed the Pharisees to Gehenna and asked how they would escape this judgment (Matt 23:33)

 

[Sophrosyne]

if you dont understand the difference between corrective punishment, and punishment which serves no purpose (ie, eternal hellfire), then i couldnt help you with that one.....it would be beyond my logic, and intellect, to try to understand someone who could not understand the difference between a parent spanking their child for 10 seconds to CORRECT THEM, or spanking them for their entire life, for a mistake......what dont you get?

sorry but torture is torture deserved or not, there has been scripture equating hell as punishment used before literally ignored and rejected so using "corrective" punishment or any kind of punishment does not work as a valid argument if you don't accept ALL punishment. Now if you are willing to accept that Hell could be valid at a place for punishment then we can continue from there but rejecting such means we only have torture to deal with and anything equating torture to compare.
Punishment to punishment or torture to torture.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Now if you want to talk punishment lets try this:
1)God punishes someone for 1 day he is "Loving"
2)God punishes someone for their entire life he is still "Loving"
3)God punishes someone for 1 year in hell... is he still "Loving"?
4)God punishes someone for 50 years in hell.. is he still "Loving"?
5)God punishes someone for 1000 years in hell... is he still "Loving"?
6)How about 10,000 years, or maybe 1 million years?
7)At what length of time does God become "Unloving" for punishing someone?
When does time make God... not God?

 

[Sadalmelik]

Now if you want to talk punishment lets try this:
1)God punishes someone for 1 day he is "Loving"
2)God punishes someone for their entire life he is still "Loving"
3)God punishes someone for 1 year in hell... is he still "Loving"?
4)God punishes someone for 50 years in hell.. is he still "Loving"?
5)God punishes someone for 1000 years in hell... is he still "Loving"?
6)How about 10,000 years, or maybe 1 million years?
7)At what length of time does God become "Unloving" for punishing someone?
When does time make God... not God?

i really and honestly have no idea what your talking about, ive said my peace on the subject, i cant explain it any better.....i dont understand what you dont understand about.....let me put it this way instead...doing something (anything) to someone for a reason, or better word purpose, and doing something to someone for no purpose, or that serves no purpose

if God were to ...as universalists put it, purify someone with fire, that to me would make sense.....irregardless of what HE chooses to do or how
HE does it, that is HIS choosing, not mine....so i dont really care what it entails or its duration, for the point im trying to make, it is really irrlevant.

if God were to ....as annihilationists put it, throw someone into a pit, in which they would become extinct, non existent, then at least that is serving a purpose, He is disposing of someone, there is an end result at least.....the being is no longer in existence.

if God were to....throw someone into a fiery furnace and just allow them to exist, so that they can suffer in pain and agony, and it were to never end, WHAT PURPOSE DOES THAT SERVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

what part of this do you not understand?????????????????????????

there is no purpose to it, NONE, the only purpose it would serve to allow them to languish forever, is to punish them by torturing them.....Does That Make Sense??????????????????

so for every version of hell/damnation/judgement of the wicked, whatever, there is at least a purpose, a reason for it.....all of them except the orthodox pov which serves no purpose whatsoever.

if you still dont understand i cant help you with this concept anymore.

the analogy i gave stands....

your child breaks a rule, you spank him/her to CORRECT the behavior, you dont just hit them because they upset you, or because you enjoy beating your child!, further, you give em a whallop and your done with it......do you continue to beat the child for the one mistake he/she made when they were 4 yrs old, and continue to smack the heck out of em untill theyre 104 yrs old? OF COURSE NOT!, that would not serve any purpose either..... nor would it serve any purpose to do it for any reason other than corrective action.

and the orthodox view of hell, serves no corrective action, what does it correct? NOTHING. it is nothing but vile and disgraceful to suggest that an all loving, merciful, and just God would have to resort to this type of barbaric behavior, which honestly makes what hitler did, in comparison, look merciful, at least his victims pain and agony ended.

i am truly amazed at what people dont get about the concept of eternity, and how that changes everything....i realize it is a difficult idea to wrap your head around, it is beyond human comprehension.....but when one says without end, it means just that. it doesnt just mean a really long time....its not....its beyond time, when it comes to eternity, you can throw time out the window, it is meaningless.....and for God to punish and torture anyone for that duration, without end, doesnt stop and give one pause about the god they claim to worship

 

[Sadalmelik]

and the word punish doesnt really fit the act of burning someone alive so that every cell in their body is in complete agony and begging to be killed....does it feel good to get burned? maybe some enjoy it, i dont.....no one can even imagine the pain involved in having their entire body, soul, mind, being burned and kept alive to feel and experience it.....its easy to sit on our comfy couches with our air conditioning humming, and think, well ya, it would probably hurt, a human mind cannot comprehend the agony that would be involved. and someones god would actually allow this to happen to anyone.......i wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, so how could the God i serve, i am not more loving than my God, im not more merciful than my God, i am not more just than my God, He is infinitely greater in respect to all these things, in relation to me.....so if i couldnt do it, my God certainly could not.

 

[Sophrosyne]

i really and honestly have no idea what your talking about, ive said my peace on the subject
<excessive peace saying omitted>

If you don't understand why the long post? I think you best find someone to debate with that likes your style of posting... I find it rather annoying and a waste of my time.

 

[Sadalmelik]

If you don't understand why the long post? I think you best find someone to debate with that likes your style of posting... I find it rather annoying and a waste of my time.

oh, ok, thats usually the response one gets when they are losing an arguement and have nothing to fall back on.....other than to throw insults. i was trying to understand what you were saying, as it made no sense to me....and trying to explain it, thus the long post/response. if i didnt reallly care, i wouldnt have bothered....i think it is your attitude that needs tuning, and if you cant debate the subject then just say so, no need to be insultive.

i pointed out my pov, which you refused over and over to even acknowledge, then you say im the one dodging, and then start insulting me? typical.

 

[1234321]

What do you mean spirits do not really die? Only God has immortality.

I think you are mixing up immortality with eternally existent. Immortality just means something doesn't die. It can have a beginning, but necessarily no end.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor 15:53

Created beings can be immortal. Christian believers will become immortal given they are found worthy at Judgment. Angels were created perfect, so they have no reason to die. Those that have remained perfect are immortal. The angels that fell have not been killed yet, and even satan is not dead yet.

Eternally existent has no beginning or end. God is eternally existent.

What do you mean "He isn't in the business of destroying spirits"
There are no immortal spirits, only God has immortality.

God is in the business of affording grace to those who accept his Son, Jesus, and those who obey the commandments,

Those who choose not to obey are eternally destroyed. If they at first chose to obey but the rejected the truth, they are in for the Judgement and second death.

You are right. Those that disobey the word of God are subjected to death. But, death is a consequence of their sin. God does not kill spirits, or humans. The angels that fell from Heaven are locked in chains, and not dead yet. Satan has not been destroyed yet. God isn't the God of death. And, besides, He doesn't have to kill anything because nothing threatens Him (or His creation in the grand scheme of things.) The abstraction of sin consumes the sinner to death.

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord GOD: and not that he should turn from his ways, and live?" Ezekiel 18:23

That is why God isn't in the "business" of killing anything. He would rather them be corrected than killed.
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