Why is Hell permanent?

[createdtoworship]

and the word punish doesnt really fit the act of burning someone alive so that every cell in their body is in complete agony and begging to be killed....does it feel good to get burned? maybe some enjoy it, i dont.....no one can even imagine the pain involved in having their entire body, soul, mind, being burned and kept alive to feel and experience it.....its easy to sit on our comfy couches with our air conditioning humming, and think, well ya, it would probably hurt, a human mind cannot comprehend the agony that would be involved. and someones god would actually allow this to happen to anyone.......i wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, so how could the God i serve, i am not more loving than my God, im not more merciful than my God, i am not more just than my God, He is infinitely greater in respect to all these things, in relation to me.....so if i couldnt do it, my God certainly could not.

torment is a different greek word than torture

from:
Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:637

TORMENT (Noun and Verb)
A. Nouns.
1. basanismos (βασανισμός, 929), akin to basanizo (see toil, No. 2), is used of divine judgments in Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15.¶
2. basanos (βάσανος, 931), primarily “a touchstone,” employed in testing metals, hence, “torment,” is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades, Luke 16:23, 28.¶
Note: In 1 John 4:18, kjv, kolasis, “punishment” (rv), is rendered “torment.” See punishment, No. 3.
B. Verbs.
1. basanizo (βασανίζω, 928), for which see toil, No. 2, is translated “to torment,” (a) of sickness, Matt. 8:6; (b) of the doom of evil spirits, Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; (c) of retributive judgments upon impenitent mankind at the close of this age, Rev. 9:5; 11:10; (d) upon those who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name, 14:10; (e) of the doom of Satan and his agents, 20:10.
2. kakoucheo (κακουχέω, 2558), “to treat evilly,” in the passive voice is translated “tormented” in Heb. 11:37, kjv (rv, “evil entreated”). See suffer, No. 6.
3. odunao (ὀδυνάω, 3600), for which see anguish, B, No. 3, in the passive voice is rendered “I am (thou art) tormented” in Luke 16:24, 25, kjv.
...
TORTURE (Verb)
tumpanizo (τυμπανίζω, 5178) primarily denotes “to beat a drum” (tumpanon, “a kettledrum,” Eng., “tympanal,” “tympanitis,” “tympanum”), hence, “to torture by beating, to beat to death,” Heb. 11:35.¶ In the Sept., 1 Sam. 21:13, “(David) drummed (upon the doors of the city).”¶ The tympanum as an instrument of “torture” seems to have been a wheel-shaped frame upon which criminals were stretched and beaten with clubs or thongs.

 

[Sadalmelik]

torment is a different greek word than torture

from:
Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:637

TORMENT (Noun and Verb)
A. Nouns.
1. basanismos (βασανισμός, 929), akin to basanizo (see toil, No. 2), is used of divine judgments in Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15.¶
2. basanos (βάσανος, 931), primarily “a touchstone,” employed in testing metals, hence, “torment,” is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades, Luke 16:23, 28.¶
Note: In 1 John 4:18, kjv, kolasis, “punishment” (rv), is rendered “torment.” See punishment, No. 3.
B. Verbs.
1. basanizo (βασανίζω, 928), for which see toil, No. 2, is translated “to torment,” (a) of sickness, Matt. 8:6; (b) of the doom of evil spirits, Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; (c) of retributive judgments upon impenitent mankind at the close of this age, Rev. 9:5; 11:10; (d) upon those who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name, 14:10; (e) of the doom of Satan and his agents, 20:10.
2. kakoucheo (κακουχέω, 2558), “to treat evilly,” in the passive voice is translated “tormented” in Heb. 11:37, kjv (rv, “evil entreated&#8221. See suffer, No. 6.
3. odunao (ὀδυνάω, 3600), for which see anguish, B, No. 3, in the passive voice is rendered “I am (thou art) tormented” in Luke 16:24, 25, kjv.
...
TORTURE (Verb)
tumpanizo (τυμπανίζω, 5178) primarily denotes “to beat a drum” (tumpanon, “a kettledrum,” Eng., “tympanal,” “tympanitis,” “tympanum&#8221, hence, “to torture by beating, to beat to death,” Heb. 11:35.¶ In the Sept., 1 Sam. 21:13, “(David) drummed (upon the doors of the city).”¶ The tympanum as an instrument of “torture” seems to have been a wheel-shaped frame upon which criminals were stretched and beaten with clubs or thongs.

irregardless, if you find burning in a fire for all eternity something that isnt punishing or tormenting or torturous, thats your business, and something i dont subscribe to.

 

[Sadalmelik]

1 timothy 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.


only He has immortality, the bible states this clearly. further, yes it can be given to something else, by Him, as it is with the saved on the day of judgement....however, nowhere does it state the unsaved will get this gift of immortality, the logical conclusion then one could make, is that the unsaved will no longer live on in some state of mythical hellfire for all eternity.....for that would be impossible, since they werent given the gift of eternal life, or, the gift of immortality.

 

[Sadalmelik]

and btw, im still waiting for someone, anyone, to explain to me what the purpose of allowing the unsaved to burn forever in agony, with no end, would be? curious.

and since i quite sure no one will come up with a response for that, i will also ask, does God do, or would God do, anything for no purpose?

look forward to hearing the numerous responses i might get.

 

[Jonathan95]

I've heard people with Sin can't be in God's presence, since he's an All-consuming fire.

 

[createdtoworship]

irregardless, if you find burning in a fire for all eternity something that isnt punishing or tormenting or torturous, thats your business, and something i dont subscribe to.

there are different words for torture and torment. Hell is described as torment, and never described as torture. THats all. You must study the original languages to find out the true meaning of Hell.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I've heard people with Sin can't be in God's presence, since he's an All-consuming fire.

But if God is omnipresent guess what happens?

 

[Sadalmelik]

there are different words for torture and torment. Hell is described as torment, and never described as torture. THats all. You must study the original languages to find out the true meaning of Hell.

well when you see from heaven the souls being tormented in hell, in pain and agony crying for relief, just yell to them, 'your not being tortured, your just in torment" im sure thatll bring them much relief

 

[Sophrosyne]

oh, ok, thats usually the response one gets when they are losing an arguement and have nothing to fall back on.....other than to throw insults. i was trying to understand what you were saying, as it made no sense to me....and trying to explain it, thus the long post/response. if i didnt reallly care, i wouldnt have bothered....i think it is your attitude that needs tuning, and if you cant debate the subject then just say so, no need to be insultive.

i pointed out my pov, which you refused over and over to even acknowledge, then you say im the one dodging, and then start insulting me? typical.

Your post here just made my point.

 

[Sophrosyne]

there are different words for torture and torment. Hell is described as torment, and never described as torture. THats all. You must study the original languages to find out the true meaning of Hell.

It doesn't matter in the end. Even if you get them to agree that hell is punishment and not torture they would still equate it as such indirectly by saying that those in hell being punished don't deserve to be punished forever and equate that as unjust. One you have already decided punishment is unjust even without proof labeling it torture is easy to do. Even if the label isn't proven in the first place they think putting a label on it is a win for them. I've seen this tactic in politics and other places... labeling is a method of not having to prove a point is true because once someone argues with labels those who created them think they have conceded the label is correct to begin with.

 

[BobRyan]

A question I have been asking myself lately...

Why is damnation in hell permanent? Why not another chance after a certain duration of punishment?

Hebrews 9 - "it is appointed unto mankind - once to die and then comes the judgment".

2Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God".

Once people are sealed in one direction or another - they do not change.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jonathan95]

But if God is omnipresent guess what happens?

He is. Didn't think about that one, hehe. But obviously they wouldn't be able to be in heaven with Sin, it's too holy etc.

 

[Sophrosyne]

He is. Didn't think about that one, hehe. But obviously they wouldn't be able to be in heaven with Sin, it's too holy etc.

There are always some that will try and find a loophole to get around that.

 

[Sophrosyne]

He is. Didn't think about that one, hehe. But obviously they wouldn't be able to be in heaven with Sin, it's too holy etc.

Yes God would have to make a place for those with sin to stay at as far away from him as possible so as to reduce the "burning" sensation to a minimum.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Yes God would have to make a place for those with sin to stay at as far away from him as possible so as to reduce the "burning" sensation to a minimum.

ive been here on cf for it seems like forever, only been 5 months or so, and i have to say, after viewing thousands of posts, and posting 1000 or so myself, i cannot believe what is being said here, it is the most proposterous thing couple of posts i have read yet.

God is omnipresent, so He will be in hell, but He will make it a far away place so that no one in heaven, inc God, the saints, and saved humans, will not have to hear, see, smell, or feel the heat of hell? another words, God is going to try to hide it from Himself!

gotcha? rofl

and these are the same people that believe lazarus was not a parable, so there is a window in heaven to see those in hell, but God is going to make it far enough away?

i cannot even believe what im reading, if it wasnt so funny id be crying.now i understand why there is no revealing anything contrary to the orthodox group, i competely understand it now.

 

[createdtoworship]

well when you see from heaven the souls being tormented in hell, in pain and agony crying for relief, just yell to them, 'your not being tortured, your just in torment" im sure thatll bring them much relief

torment not torture
this was a previous topic, and seeing that the greek words for torture are not the same as torment I would expand upon this topic....

from
PleaseConvinceMe Blog: Torture, or Torment? Is there a Difference?

On a recent Stand to Reason podcast, a caller challenged Greg Koukl as to the nature of hell, arguing that a loving God could not engage in eternal torture. Greg rightly drew the distinction between torture, which implies a certain motive or sick pleasure on the part of the doer, and torment, which does not. Drawing on the symbol of fire, the caller pressed the point, asking how causing someone to burn eternally and to experience the pain and agony of burning could not be characterized as torture.

This is a good question, and a very difficult challenge for the Christian apologist to meet. After all, Jesus used similar imagery, when He compared Hell to the perpetual fires ...outside Jerusalem, in the place called Gehenna.

The response to this challenge requires us to tease out the assumption that the question contains. By asserting that God “causes” someone to burn eternally and that God “inflicts agony,” the question compels the answer that yes, this would be torture. The real issue, though, is whether God does those things to the souls in Hell, or whether those lost souls experience an everlasting torment that is a consequence – and not a separate goal - of the fact that they are in Hell.

In the Civil War, doctors treated most bullet wounds to an arm or leg by amputating the limb, no doubt an excruciating experience in the days before anesthetics. But these actions were done not to torture the patient but to accomplish some good purpose – namely, to save him. The patient no doubt felt tormented, but this was a natural consequence of the necessary action that was taken; it would not be fair to say the doctor had engaged in torture. On the other hand, if one side had taken perfectly healthy prisoners of war and amputated a limb to inflict pain, either to coerce cooperation or as a method of terror, this would indeed be torture. Similarly, if a modern surgeon decided to amputate without anesthetics, it would be fair to characterize such actions as torture.

Christians believe that God is all good and that whatever he creates must also be good. Hell is a place of separation He has created for those deserving of such separation. Hell must be good and must serve a good purpose. But if Hell is a place in which God actively inflicts agony simply to terrorize or for some other evil purpose, then Hell cannot be a good place, and God cannot be good. Alternatively, if God could accomplish His legitimate purpose of separating wrongdoers from Him without inflicting the level of torment that exists in Hell, then, once again, it would seem evil to inflict such agony.

How, then, does orthodox Christianity makes sense of this place called Hell?

I submit that the answer lies in understanding that the torment spoken of is the natural consequence of the legitimate end God accomplishes with Hell, and not a separate, sadistic purpose to inflict agony. What is that end? Separation from Him. And what is He? Perfection. Absolute, unlimited, infinite perfection, the kind that we as human beings cannot even begin to fathom. Remember your first love? Or the way you felt when you beheld your first child? Or reuniting with your spouse after a period apart? Conversely, can you recall the first time you were homesick, or the first time you experienced the death of a loved one? Now magnify these feelings – not by a hundred, a thousand, or even a billion, but by infinity, and by eternity. Start to get the picture? If the “goodness” of the people we love can cause us such torment when we are separated from them, and if that goodness is a mere shadow of the infinite perfection of God, then I shudder to imagine what knowing but not be able to experience the infinite beauty and pefection of God would be like.
__________________

 

[createdtoworship]

It doesn't matter in the end. Even if you get them to agree that hell is punishment and not torture they would still equate it as such indirectly by saying that those in hell being punished don't deserve to be punished forever and equate that as unjust. One you have already decided punishment is unjust even without proof labeling it torture is easy to do. Even if the label isn't proven in the first place they think putting a label on it is a win for them. I've seen this tactic in politics and other places... labeling is a method of not having to prove a point is true because once someone argues with labels those who created them think they have conceded the label is correct to begin with.

labeling is a straw man tactic to weaken the opponents view point without proper evidence.

 

[Sophrosyne]

labeling is a straw man tactic to weaken the opponents view point without proper evidence.

Good luck trying to attack those who rely on labels, they won't let go of them easily as it is a crutch for them in some cases.

 

[createdtoworship]

Good luck trying to attack those who rely on labels, they won't let go of them easily as it is a crutch for them in some cases.

if you take away the crutch, they fall!!!

 

[Hillsage]

well when you see from heaven the souls being tormented in hell, in pain and agony crying for relief, just yell to them, 'your not being tortured, your just in torment" im sure thatll bring them much relief

Bravo Sadalmelik;To not see the simple truth in what you just said is absolutely sad. And to even try to kick against the pricks of what you just said proves, once again, that 'nothing shines quite like waxed over truth.'