Why is Hell permanent?

[Sophrosyne]

Death is Death, OKAY? Death is not life. Why can't you understand this? In order for a person to feel torment, they have to be alive. Dead people are dead. They are not alive as you have insisted time and time again. They are not conscious, have you never seen a dead person? You have to know this, I think you are just pretending to not understand.

Repeat after me: "Dead people are dead, they are not alive."

not alive does not = annihilated
so now by your own admission we have two definitions of "Death" or "Dead"
1)non existence (annihilated)
2)not life (still existing somehow?)
You have not proven that people that are "physically dead" do not have some consciousness in another fashion at all. The bible equates otherwise in places that people do live after death but you ignore or marginalize such instances with extreme prejudice. And yes, I have seen dead people. I was a witness to both of my parents deaths. My father came to me when mom died panicking she wouldn't wake up and I had to check her and tell him she was dead. My sister years later called me and asked me to check my father and I had to tell her he was dead also. I think it rather foolish of you to even suggest someone my age (which is posted) has not seen death at one time or another.

 

[Timothew]

np

 

[Timothew]

not alive does not = annihilated
so now by your own admission we have two definitions of "Death" or "Dead"
1)non existence (annihilated)
2)not life (still existing somehow?)
You have not proven that people that are "physically dead" do not have some consciousness in another fashion at all. The bible equates otherwise in places that people do live after death but you ignore or marginalize such instances with extreme prejudice. And yes, I have seen dead people. I was a witness to both of my parents deaths. My father came to me when mom died panicking she wouldn't wake up and I had to check her and tell him she was dead. My sister years later called me and asked me to check my father and I had to tell her he was dead also. I think it rather foolish of you to even suggest someone my age (which is posted) has not seen death at one time or another.

I'm sorry about your parents' deaths.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Explain this scripture:
Luke 23:42-44

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [a]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise.”


Now does today mean "right away"? And how could one "be" if they are unable to feel anything. Someone "asleep" would not know they are in paradise and would not know they are with anyone yet Jesus said "Be with Me" and "in Paradise".

 

[1234321]

Aren't all humans (especially before Christ came in flesh to defeat sin and give a spirit to us "on loan") dead? When Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, and his body began to die. Yet, he was still alive. Those that sin, and do not believe in Christ are dead already, yet we still live. We live according to the lifetime of these physical bodies, but our physical death is certain.

I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps our lives on this physical earth (whose design is supposed to be full spirit indwelled in a physical body) is a metaphor for real life to come when Christ physically comes back to reign as King. In spirit, if we are declared dead, we die according to the lifetime of our bodies which, if you are spirit will last an extremely long time (perhaps millions of years to dissolve.) I think this is where people can draw the conclusion of "eternal damnation," because spirits don't really die (of course, God can destroy the spirit instantly, but we see in the bible He tends to let things naturally progress in their due season.) A spirit takes a very long time to naturally die, but if it has transgressed the law of God, its death is guaranteed. Nothing right now is dead, though, not even satan. Not dead in the sense of completely non-existent.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm sorry about your parents' deaths.

Thanks.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Explain this scripture:
Luke 23:42-44

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [a]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise.”


Now does today mean "right away"? And how could one "be" if they are unable to feel anything. Someone "asleep" would not know they are in paradise and would not know they are with anyone yet Jesus said "Be with Me" and "in Paradise".

actually commas were not used in original texts, the comma was inserted by translators, to fit whatever agenda they had. now obviously removing the comma can change the whole meaning of the point your making, im not saying one way or the other, just a thought.

 

[Sophrosyne]

actually commas were not used in original texts, the comma was inserted by translators, to fit whatever agenda they had. now obviously removing the comma can change the whole meaning of the point your making, im not saying one way or the other, just a thought.

So you are suggesting he said
I say to you today, ....?
I don't recall Jesus speaking like this to people do you?
Think about it... if I was talking to you about something I would not need to mention today unless I was relating to something I promise you and the time in which is would happen. You could take the comma completely out and an English professor would still say the sentence has the same meaning that the comma inserted would.

 

[Soulgazer]

Explain this scripture:
Luke 23:42-44

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [a]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise.”


Now does today mean "right away"? And how could one "be" if they are unable to feel anything. Someone "asleep" would not know they are in paradise and would not know they are with anyone yet Jesus said "Be with Me" and "in Paradise".

If you will remember that Moses too appeared with Jesus on the Mount, you will see that there is an alternative to a far off judgment day.



I too am very sorry to hear of your loss.

 

[1234321]

If you will remember that Moses too appeared with Jesus on the Mount, you will see that there is an alternative to a far off judgment day.



I too am very sorry to hear of your loss.

Paradoxically, Moses could have already been judged (along with everyone else,) and was deemed worth to wear the shining "raiment," even though he hasn't been judged with us all yet.

 

[Soulgazer]

Paradoxically, Moses could have already been judged (along with everyone else,) and was deemed worth to wear the shining "raiment," even though he hasn't been judged with us all yet.

I agree in the possibilities. Jesus took them all by surprise. He wasn't named Emanuel. Nor did He "conquer" any cities.

I think He will remain true to form.

 

[Sadalmelik]

So you are suggesting he said
I say to you today, ....?
I don't recall Jesus speaking like this to people do you?
Think about it... if I was talking to you about something I would not need to mention today unless I was relating to something I promise you and the time in which is would happen. You could take the comma completely out and an English professor would still say the sentence has the same meaning that the comma inserted would.

i am not suggesting this, however, this is how i heard this explained to me once. now, i really dont know, or pretend to know what it actually says, but like i said, the arguement stands, that if you take the comma out, thats exactly what it could say...

i simply dont know......in my opinion, if it were to be taken as he was with Jesus in paradise on the exact day, then yes, it would conflict with other scipture, concerning the day of judgement etc.

further, when i read the bible, and how the authors spoke at the time, and how Jesus spoke, yes, i can see the validity to this claim, quite honestly, i dont see how you dont. they certainly did not talk the way you and i talk today in the west, some 2000 plus years later....to me, the bible sounds almost as if spoken in a foreign language, some times more than others, so yes, i can certainly see how Jesus could have said it that way, instead of the way it was written.....the way Jesus talked was in my humble opinion strange.....perhaps its cause He most always used parables, but regardless, it certainly DOES NOT resemble modern day english. so if you want to rely on a comma, that was inserted by a translator, then that is your choice....imo, your placing alot of certainty and and trust in a little punctuation mark.

 

[Sophrosyne]

i am not suggesting this, however, this is how i heard this explained to me once. now, i really dont know, or pretend to know what it actually says, but like i said, the arguement stands, that if you take the comma out, thats exactly what it could say...

i simply dont know......in my opinion, if it were to be taken as he was with Jesus in paradise on the exact day, then yes, it would conflict with other scipture, concerning the day of judgement etc.

further, when i read the bible, and how the authors spoke at the time, and how Jesus spoke, yes, i can see the validity to this claim, quite honestly, i dont see how you dont. they certainly did not talk the way you and i talk today in the west, some 2000 plus years later....to me, the bible sounds almost as if spoken in a foreign language, some times more than others, so yes, i can certainly see how Jesus could have said it that way, instead of the way it was written.....the way Jesus talked was in my humble opinion strange.....perhaps its cause He most always used parables, but regardless, it certainly DOES NOT resemble modern day english. so if you want to rely on a comma, that was inserted by a translator, then that is your choice....imo, your placing alot of certainty and and trust in a little punctuation mark.

And that is a lot to say over a comma. Take the comma out and read it and tell me what it says.

 

[he-man]

So you are suggesting he said
I say to you today, ....?
I don't recall Jesus speaking like this to people do you?
Think about it... if I was talking to you about something I would not need to mention today unless I was relating to something I promise you and the time in which is would happen. You could take the comma completely out and an English professor would still say the sentence has the same meaning that the comma inserted would.

You have all missed the point, if Jesus were trying to say he would be with him that exact day, he would not find Jesus there in Paradise because Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days afterwards. He was not resurrected until after the 3rd day. That dissolves the debate period.

 

[Soulgazer]

Probably. I have missed the point before. I just don't know. I can only go on what is written here and there, and the things I have witnessed. I don't consider it worth arguing over, we will all find out eventually.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You have all missed the point, if Jesus were trying to say he would be with him that exact day, he would not find Jesus there in Paradise because Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days afterwards. He was not resurrected until after the 3rd day. That dissolves the debate period.

Jesus as dead in the grave like Jonah was dead in the belly of the whale for 3 days... correct?

 

[he-man]

Jesus as dead in the grave like Jonah was dead in the belly of the whale for 3 days... correct?

Yep, God
regurgitated him. Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days afterwards. He was not resurrected until after the 3rd day. That dissolves the debate period.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yep, God
regurgitated him. Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days afterwards. He was not resurrected until after the 3rd day. That dissolves the debate period.

I'm sorry but the Jonah story never says Jonah was dead nor was he ressurrected.

 

[Sadalmelik]

like i said, each can view it how they wish, i dont really care, nor to argue over it. my point is this, with the comma where it is, the meaning is completely different than if you take out the comma., without the comma, it means something different. im not here to argue one way or the other in regards to this....read it however you want.


if i had to choose a side, i would say that what he-man said makes more sense to me, and is more in line with the rest of scripture, i dont see man as being judged immediately upon, or just after death.....i dont read that in scripture, further, if that were the case, i dont see there being any need for judgment days, if everyone has already been judged, that makes no sense.