Why is Hell permanent?

[Sophrosyne]

If you are saying that Jesus didn't really die on the cross and He wasn't really dead in the tomb until early in the morning on the first day of the week, then I'll have to disagree with you.

It kind of makes the resurrection meaningless if Jesus didn't really die. I got up this morning, it isn't unusual for a living person to get up. If a person can get up after being dead for three days, that's something special.

Believe what you want to, Jesus died in the flesh, and experienced a spiritual death we call separation from God also and was alive in spirit in paradise with the thief on the cross that same day he died on the cross just as Jonah was not murdered by God via a fish and resurrected he lived three days also.

 

[Timothew]

Believe what you want to, Jesus died in the flesh, and experienced a spiritual death we call separation from God also and was alive in spirit in paradise with the thief on the cross that same day he died on the cross just as Jonah was not murdered by God via a fish and resurrected he lived three days also.

Thank you. I believe what the bible says and the bible does not say that "Jesus experienced a spiritual death we call separation from God also and was alive in spirit in paradise with the thief on the cross" when he was dead. But feel free to believe that if you want to.

You don't need to try to convince me of anything else regarding your religion.

 

[Stealth001]

No assumption whatsoever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It's a euphemism.

I stood in line at the grocery store forever and ever last Tuesday.

 

[Stealth001]

Looks like it's the second death though. Not eternal torture.

Repentance is death. In repentance we are crucified with Christ. Death doesn't always mean what people think it means. Those in the lake of fire are experiencing a second death, a second loss of self, they are being braught to their knees.

 

[Stealth001]

The second death does not cancel "they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".

I stood in line at the grocery store forever and ever last Tuesday.

 

[dollarsbill]

It's a euphemism.

I stood in line at the grocery store forever and ever last Tuesday.

How about ETERNAL life? Euphemism?

 

[Stealth001]

I'm sorry, but I believe in Christ and there is a resurrection from death on the last day and THEN the second death, or eternal life for those who are in Christ.

I never said what you think I said.

So, instead of God raising the dead and condemning the wicked to a never ending fiery torture chamber... you believe God condemns the wicked by vaporizing them from existence. Wow.

Is it God's will to save all men in Jesus Christ?
Did God fail in His mission to save all men in Jesus Christ?

 

[Stealth001]

You need to make up your mind. Do you believe in eternal punishment or not?

I had a punishment that had an eternal effect on me when I was 13. I called my mom a certain 5 letter word... and she beat the skinnings off of me. I've never cursed her since. That was an etertnal "kolasis" or "correction" (also translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46).

 

[dollarsbill]

I had a punishment that will have an eternal effect on me when I was 13. I called my mom a certain 5 letter word... and she beat the skinnings off of me. I've never cursed her since. That was an etertnal "kolasis" or "correction" (also translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46).

That was not eternal by any stretch. This is ETERNAL, NEVER ending:

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Stealth001]

I'm sorry but the Jonah story never says Jonah was dead nor was he ressurrected.

Jonah does offer some clues that would cause one to think that he had died. For example:

Jonah 2:1-9
2 Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, 2 saying,
“I called out to the Lord, out of my distress,
and he answered me;
out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
and you heard my voice.
3 For you cast me into the deep,
into the heart of the seas,
and the flood surrounded me;
all your waves and your billows
passed over me.
4 Then I said, ‘I am driven away
from your sight;
yet I shall again look
upon your holy temple.’
5 The waters closed in over me to take my life;
the deep surrounded me;
weeds were wrapped about my head
6 at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me forever;
yet you brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord my God.
7 When my life was fainting away,
I remembered the Lord,
and my prayer came to you,
into your holy temple.
8 Those who pay regard to vain idols
forsake their hope of steadfast love.
9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving
will sacrifice to you;
what I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!”


​

Jonah cried out from "belly of Sheol" (the grave, a state of death). He saw the deep sea mountains, weeds wrapped around him, he saw the bottom of the sea. Jonah couldn't have experienced these things if alive in the belly of a whale or fish. This sounds much like a "near death experience". Jonah died and was witnessing the enviroment around himself. Most likely drowned prior to being swallowed by the great fish. During this time Jonah's soul is witnessing the depths and was crying out to God. And even in death... God heard Jonah's cry, forgave him, and sent him back to the land of the living. Anyone who has ever had or who has studied near death experiences can see these elements in the story.

I believe Jonah died and was sent back by the hand of God.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Jonah cried out from "belly of Sheol" (the grave, a state of death). He saw the deep sea mountains, weeds wrapped around him, he saw the bottom of the sea. Jonah couldn't have experienced these things if alive in the belly of a whale or fish. This sounds much like a "near death experience". Jonah died and was witnessing the enviroment around himself. Most likely drowned prior to the great fish took his body. During this time Jonah's soul is witnessing the depths and was crying out to God. And even in death... God heard Jonah's cry, forgave him, and sent him back to the land of the living.

Weren't you the one equating forever and ever as a euphemism? I can play that game.... Jonah said... It's hell inside the belly of the fish... let me out.

 

[Stealth001]

How about ETERNAL life? Euphemism?

Remember, eternal life has to do with the life that comes from God. Eternal punishment "kolasis" (Grk. for "correction") is eternal in that it also comes from God. I know of people who went to prison for 5 years and it reformed their entire person. They experienced an "eternal correction", but they are out of prison now.

 

[Sadalmelik]

If you are saying that Jesus didn't really die on the cross and He wasn't really dead in the tomb until early in the morning on the first day of the week, then I'll have to disagree with you.

It kind of makes the resurrection meaningless if Jesus didn't really die. I got up this morning, it isn't unusual for a living person to get up. If a person can get up after being dead for three days, that's something special.

 

[Stealth001]

That was not eternal by any stretch. This is ETERNAL, NEVER ending:

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You're stuck on silly. An "eternal punishment" or "eternal correction" doesn't demand that the punishment or correction be eternal. However, it does demand that the purpose and/or effect of said correction be never ending. An "eternal correction" (Grk. "aionios kolasis") is a "correction" that lasts forever... not necessarily a correction that doesn't end.

 

[dollarsbill]

Remember, eternal life has to do with the life that comes from God. Eternal punishment "kolasis" (Grk. for "correction") is eternal also. I know of people who went to prison for 5 years and it reformed their entire person. They experienced an "eternal correction", but they are out of prison now.

The wicked also come from God. "Eternal punishment" is, ETERNAL. Exact same Greek word used for ETERNAL life. NEVER ending. Hell is eternal and will have MANY residing therein.

 

[dollarsbill]

You're stuck on silly. An "eternal punishment" or "eternal correction" doesn't demand that the punishment or correction be eternal. However, it does demand that the purpose and/or effect of said correction be never ending. An "eternal correction" (Grk. "aionios kolasis") is a "correction" that lasts forever... not necessarily a correction that doesn't end.

You are offering hope that the Bible does not. There will be no escape from the ETERNAL fire.

 

[Stealth001]

Weren't you the one equating forever and ever as a euphemism? I can play that game.... Jonah said... It's hell inside the belly of the fish... let me out.

While that is possible, and is the traditional take on it, Jonah describes the waves and the deep encompassing him. Jonah talks about becoming intangled in sea weed. Jonah describes the "roots of the mountains" (bottom of the sea), and the bars of the land of death below the earth. Now... I know verse 2 could be a euphemism for the belly of the fish being the grave or "hell". However, given all the statements in this context... the guy was obviously having an out of body experience wherein Jonah was consciously witnessing himself being carried by currents into the depths of the sea. Jonah was dead. This was an NDE. And as with many NDE's, Jonah cried out to God... and God heard him, had mercy, and sent him back.

 

[Sadalmelik]

The wicked also come from God. "Eternal punishment" is, ETERNAL. Exact same Greek word used for ETERNAL life. NEVER ending. Hell is eternal and will have MANY residing therein.

do you not know any words that have more than one meaning? there are thousands of them, would you like examples?

 

[dollarsbill]

do you not know any words that have more than one meaning? there are thousands of them, would you like examples?

Certainly, but the Bible gives precise info on this. Luke 16. Rev 14 and 20 and others. The rich man who died and is alive in the fire is unmistakeable!

 

[Stealth001]

The wicked also come from God. "Eternal punishment" is, ETERNAL. Exact same Greek word used for ETERNAL life. NEVER ending. Hell is eternal and will have MANY residing therein.

In Matthew 25:46 the word for punishment is "kolasis". It means "correction". It's root is the Greek word "kolazo", meaning to "prune". The word is used to denote the pruning of a vine by a vinedresser. The pruning chastens the vine, and causes it to grow correctly. A correction.

An "eternal correction" is a correction that lasts forever. Not a never ending correcting. Why? Because by definition if the correcting lasts forever... nothing's being corrected.