WHY IS DANIEL 9:24-27 ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE ?

[BABerean2]

Wow. I said that.Daniel 9 is fulfilled. Yes I agree. There is no end time anti christ in Dan 9. But there is end time anti christ touched on in other parts of Daniel and the New testament. You don't seem to be reading my posts and understanding them. I seem to be wasting my time and effort with you.

Sorry for the confusion on my part...

Are you sure the references in other parts of Daniel are not about Antiochus Epiphanes and his attack on the city of Jerusalem and the desecration of the Jewish temple during 167 BC?

John 10:22 is related to the event.

Below Josephus reveals the fulfillment of the event predicted by Daniel. According to Josephus, it was fulfilled 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.
This was the understanding of Jews who lived during the first century.

.................................................................................

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

.

 

[dougangel]

Sorry for the confusion on my part...

Are you sure the references in other parts of Daniel are not about Antiochus Epiphanes and his attack on the city of Jerusalem and the desecration of the Jewish temple during 167 BC?

John 10:22 is related to the event.

Below Josephus reveals the fulfillment of the event predicted by Daniel. According to Josephus, it was fulfilled 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.
This was the understanding of Jews who lived during the first century.

.................................................................................

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

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Dual fulfillments
Verses 35-39: The reference to “the time of the end” in verse 35 offers a challenge in interpretation. Some understand this as referring to the time just before Christ’s return, and others see it as the end of the Maccabean struggles. Some of the actions can be attributed to Antiochus Epiphanes, and some seem to be prophecies of the beast power that will exist at the end of this present age. These verses apparently have dual fulfillments, spanning from the time of the Maccabees until the return of Christ.

The preceding verses in Daniel 11 represent extremely detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled exactly as they were revealed to Daniel. It is important to note that the Roman Empire defeated Seleucid Syria in 65 B.C. and that it defeated Egypt in 30 B.C. Thus the first identities of the king of the North and the king of the South came to an end.

The time of the end
In verses 40-45 we read of actions of a king of the North and a king of South “at the time of the end” (verse 40). The end-time identities of these nations are yet to be determined. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel in 1948 seems to be a key development that allows for the fulfillment of these end-time verses. From the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70 until 1948, there was no Jewish nation.

Now, with a Jewish nation once again existing in the Middle East, there is relevance to identifying major world governments as a king of the North and a king of the South in reference to Jewish people living in Jerusalem. Click the following links to learn more about who this future king of the North and future king of the South are likely to be.

Daniel 12 also talks of the time of the end.

 

[BABerean2]

Now, with a Jewish nation once again existing in the Middle East, there is relevance to identifying major world governments as a king of the North and a king of the South in reference to Jewish people living in Jerusalem.

Who created the modern state of Israel?

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[dougangel]

Who created the modern state of Israel?

I agree with Chuck. He could of said that in 15 mins. He kept repeating himself. I think he's only telling part of the story.
Baberean2. I could spend hours replying to that. but I hope you understand what I'm quickly going to say.
There's spiritaul prophecies and Historical prophecies and sometimes both.
Just because your saying something could happen and it has ramifications historically. It doesn't mean your saying it is morally right or spiritaul ?

Jesus prophecy.
luke 21.
24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Indeed Israel was conquered and dispersed to all the nations by the romans.
Chucks logic is it doesn't matter because its worldly Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

I agree with Chuck. He could of said that in 15 mins. He kept repeating himself. I think he's only telling part of the story.
Baberean2. I could spend hours replying to that. but I hope you understand what I'm quickly going to say.
There's spiritaul prophecies and Historical prophecies and sometimes both.
Just because your saying something could happen and it has ramifications historically. It doesn't mean your saying it is morally right or spiritaul ?

Jesus prophecy.
luke 21.
24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Indeed Israel was conquered and dispersed to all the nations by the romans.
Chucks logic is it doesn't matter because its worldly Israel.

What do we find in Luke chapter 21 after "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled?

In context...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In the verses that follow verse 24 we have the future Second Coming of Christ, after "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Paul refers to the same time period in Romans chapter 11.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(See Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27.)

Christ returns when "the times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled.


Look at the spiritual conditions of earthly Jerusalem right before the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.

 

[dougangel]

What do we find in Luke chapter 21 after "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled?

In context...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In the verses that follow verse 24 we have the future Second Coming of Christ, after "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Paul refers to the same time period in Romans chapter 11.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(See Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27.)

Christ returns when "the times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled.


Look at the spiritual conditions of earthly Jerusalem right before the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.

I do actaully know all that.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

I was more concentrating on that bit. It's an example of Jesus prophecying something historical about the Israel nation.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:25-26 King James Version (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

verse 25 is telling you the messiah is the prince.

Verse 25 is only applying the Hebrew word nagiyd for 'ruler' ("Prince") to Jesus. The word itself is not part of Jesus' Name.

In the Dan.9:26 verse, the word for 'ruler' (Hebrew nagiyd as "prince" - lowercase in KJV) is not linked to Jesus. Even the KJV translators showed this distinction by NOT putting the word "prince" in capitals again.

Dan 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV


The NIV is easier to understand, and translates Hebrew nagiyd properly as "ruler", making the distinction in the Hebrew between Jesus ("the Anointed One") and the Roman general ("the ruler") more clear...

Dan.9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
NIV

 

[Davy]

Hmmm.
"Where did you get that writing?"
It's Revelation 19.
It's the 2nd coming. If you don't beleive that Rev 19 is the 2nd Coming we can't go on.

Not what I meant. I well understand Rev.19:10 forward is about Christ's future 2nd coming to do battle at Armageddon. You threw out an idea about a "church age." That's what I was asking about.

The beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the fiery lake.

They are alive just before the second coming and destroyed at the second coming.
There is more detail about them in Rev 13.

Yes, I know that.

We are in the "church age" The times of the gentiles being fulfilled.

[/quote]

As one single Church Age, yes I agree with that. But not as 7 Church Ages like the Dispensationalists believe.

 

[Davy]

Jesus literally is talking about the buildings that the disciples can see, but you say Jesus didn't really mean the buildings that they could see in front of them. What you are doing is the definition of changing text to fit your eschatological belief.

Why are you talking about buildings in the above when my paragraph subject you responded to with that was actually about Matt.24:33-34? Why do you beat around the bush? Get right to the meat of what Jesus said here...

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Question:
1. What exactly does "when ye shall see all these things" mean?

2. And then what does "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" mean?

 

[jgr]

In the Dan.9:26 verse, the word for 'ruler' (Hebrew nagiyd as "prince" - lowercase in KJV) is not linked to Jesus. Even the KJV translators showed this distinction by NOT putting the word "prince" in capitals again.

Capitalization is irrelevant.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

But if you believe it is relevant, the YLT renders it consistently:

Daniel 9
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

The Hebrew "nagid" is identical in both instances.

Titus is unseen.

 

[claninja]

Why are you talking about buildings in the above when my paragraph subject you responded to with that was actually about Matt.24:33-34? Why do you beat around the bush? Get right to the meat of what Jesus said here...

Why am I talking about the buildings? because it has been part of this conversation the entire time:

We were talking about Luke 21 and you stated no, the events of luke 21 are about the end of the world:

Well no, the Luke 21 events are actually about the signs of the end of this world and relate to the 6 Seals of Rev.6 which was given to the seven Churches in Asia (Minor).

Then I stated Jesus points to the temple buildings right in front of the disciples and states they will destroyed, as in not a future 3rd temple, but the temple right in front of them:

The text disagrees.

Jesus explicitly points out the temple buildings directly in eye sight of the disciples by saying 'for what you SEE HERE'. He states not one stone will be left on another in regards to the temple right in their eye sight. The disciples ask when will THESE THINGS (temple building right in their eye sight destroyed) happen.

Then you shifted to matthew 24, but also talked about the sign of not one stone atop another being one of the signs that the "final generation" would see.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Like I showed, Jesus was clear who the "generation" would be that will "see all these things", meaning ALL... those signs He gave in His Olivet Discourse, INCLUDING... that sign of not one stone atop another. It's the final generation that will see ALL those things, because the LAST SIGN Jesus gave there was the sign of His 2nd Coming and Gathering of His Church (Matt.24:29-31).

Thats why I mentioned the temple buildings, because we have been talking about it this entire time.

Get right to the meat of what Jesus said here...

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Haven't we been talking about the meat the entire time? signs of the end, the coming of christ, destruction of the temple

Question:

Are you going to answer any of the multiple questions i posted in post #255?

1. What exactly does "when ye shall see all these things" mean?

Considering Jesus says 'you' many, many times throughout the discourse. It seems that some of his disciples, who would live long enough, would see:
1.) wars and rumors of wars
2.) persectution
3.) famines
4.) earthquakes
5.) pestilence
6.) false messiahs/prophets
7. Destruction of the temple/jerusalem
8.) Son of man coming on the clouds with power

I know you would disagree with #8, but did the disciples not live during any events of 1-7?

2. And then what does "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" mean?

The generation of Jesus' lifetime, that included the disciples, would not pass away until the destruction of the jerusalem and the temple occurred (this includes the signs before its destruction: wars, earthquakes, false messiahs.....also the coming of the son of man on the clouds with power).

 

[BABerean2]

8.) Son of man coming on the clouds with power

I know you would disagree with #8, but did the disciples not live during any events of 1-7?

Did "the times of the Gentiles" found at the end of Luke 21:24 come to an end during 70 AD?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Apostle Paul would also disagree with point #8.
When will you be willing to give it up?
.

 

[Davy]

Why am I talking about the buildings? because it has been part of this conversation the entire time:

We were talking about Luke 21 and you stated no, the events of luke 21 are about the end of the world:

Then I stated Jesus points to the temple buildings right in front of the disciples and states they will destroyed, as in not a future 3rd temple, but the temple right in front of them:

Then you shifted to matthew 24, but also talked about the sign of not one stone atop another being one of the signs that the "final generation" would see.

Thats why I mentioned the temple buildings, because we have been talking about it this entire time.

The last discussion I was having was about the generation in Matt.24, not back at the start of the chapter which was already discussed, which included past discussion of Luke 21.

Haven't we been talking about the meat the entire time? signs of the end, the coming of christ, destruction of the temple

Not the 'meat' of what 'generation' those signs He gave were meant for, no, we hadn't been talking about that before, not until the latter posts. And then instead of staying on topic about the generation you went back to Matt.24:1 and the buildings.

Are you going to answer any of the multiple questions i posted in post #255?

Is that the out you're going to use for not answering my specific questions in post #269, my previous post?

Considering Jesus says 'you' many, many times throughout the discourse. It seems that some of his disciples, who would live long enough, would see:
1.) wars and rumors of wars
2.) persectution
3.) famines
4.) earthquakes
5.) pestilence
6.) false messiahs/prophets
7. Destruction of the temple/jerusalem
8.) Son of man coming on the clouds with power

I know you would disagree with #8, but did the disciples not live during any events of 1-7?

The generation of Jesus' lifetime, that included the disciples, would not pass away until the destruction of the jerusalem and the temple occurred (this includes the signs before its destruction: wars, earthquakes, false messiahs.....also the coming of the son of man on the clouds with power).

Well, you failed to address my question of just what the phrase, "when ye shall see all these things" means.

It means the generation that will see His 2nd coming will also see ALL those signs He gave in Matt.24, including that of not one stone standing atop another. That means those signs are not spread out over 2,000 years. They must occur in the generation that will see His return. To make sure we understand this point about the final generation, He even said, "This generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled."

So it's a very simple matter to understand that He was not... talking about the generation of His Apostles, but about the last generation at the end of this present world. So applying formal grammar like 'you' which can apply to people in general, when speaking to a group, cannot change His specific declaration of all... those signs being fulfilled in the last generation.

 

[claninja]

Did "the times of the Gentiles" found at the end of Luke 21:24 come to an end during 70 AD?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This is a really good point to bring up. We know Paul is talking about the salvation of the gentiles in Romans 11, because the context tells us this. Is jesus talking about the salvation of the gentiles in his Olivet Discourse, when he relates the trampling of earthly Jerusalem By the gentiles? Do we still come to earthly Jerusalem as our inheritance? If so I would agree that the earthly Jerusalem will be trampled until Christ comes. But if heavenly Jerusalem is our inheritance, are gentiles currently trampling it?

The Apostle Paul would also disagree with point #8.

I don’t necessarily agree. Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages. Why did he believe this?

And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,
1 Corinthians 10:11 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:11 - Young's Literal Translation

This also seems like a bit of false hope as well:

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Young's Literal Translation

When will you be willing to give it up?

When someone can appropriately answer why the disciples believed they were living in the last days and that Jesus was coming in their life time.

 

[BABerean2]

This is a really good point to bring up. We know Paul is talking about the salvation of the gentiles in Romans 11, because the context tells us this. Is jesus talking about the salvation of the gentiles in his Olivet Discourse, when he relates the trampling of earthly Jerusalem By the gentiles? Do we still come to earthly Jerusalem as our inheritance? If so I would agree that the earthly Jerusalem will be trampled until Christ comes. But if heavenly Jerusalem is our inheritance, are gentiles currently trampling it?

Earthly Jerusalem has never been the eternal inheritance of believers from any age, based on Hebrews 11:15-16.

Do you think "the times of the Gentiles" Christ spoke of in Luke 21:24 is different from the "times of the Gentiles" that Paul referred to in Romans 11?

.

 

[dougangel]

I don’t necessarily agree. Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages. Why did he believe this?

And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,
1 Corinthians 10:11 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:11 - Young's Literal Translation

This also seems like a bit of false hope as well:

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Young's Literal Translation

Your really taking those verses out of context.


1 Corinthians 10-11 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings From Israel’s History

10
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

That's talking about the Mosaic age ending but they are examples for us. I can get you comentaries if needed ?

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Young's Literal Translation[/QUOTE]

This has happened a few times in the NT. Where they say, you or we.

But what Paul is saying is the Living christians at time of the Jesus's return will be caught up to meet the lord in air.

Paul did live in hope that christ would come back again and tells other christians too as well. He also says no one knows when, like christ did. I can get the verses if neccasary.
​

 

[claninja]

The last discussion I was having was about the generation in Matt.24, not back at the start of the chapter which was already discussed, which included past discussion of Luke 21.

Then I apologize if it appeared I have side tracked the conversation. That was not my intention. From my perspective, if we are talking about the generation that 'sees all these things', that would include not just the false messiahs, earthquakes, famines, persecution, but also the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

Not the 'meat' of what 'generation' those signs He gave were meant for, no, we hadn't been talking about that before, not until the latter posts. And then instead of staying on topic about the generation you went back to Matt.24:1 and the buildings.

Maybe I am misunderstand by what you mean of the 'meat'. From my perspective the meat of the 'this generation shall not pass until all THESE THINGS have happened, is the 'all these things that happen'. Was the temple destroyed during the generation of the disciples? Were there famines, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, persecutions, false messiahs during the generation of disciples?

If the answer is yes, then Jesus was talking about the generation in front of him.

Is that the out you're going to use for not answering my specific questions in post #269, my previous post?

I'm sorry, i don't quite understand. Did I not attempt to answer your questions in my post #271? I quoted your questions 1 and 2 and did respond to them.

Well, you failed to address my question of just what the phrase, "when ye shall see all these things" means.

I addressed it in post #271. Now you may not agree, but I did address it:

The generation of Jesus' lifetime, that included the disciples, would not pass away until the destruction of the jerusalem and the temple occurred (this includes the signs before its destruction: wars, earthquakes, false messiahs.....also the coming of the son of man on the clouds with power).

It means the generation that will see His 2nd coming will also see ALL those signs He gave in Matt.24, including that of not one stone standing atop another. That means those signs are not spread out over 2,000 years.

I absolutely agree

So it's a very simple matter to understand that He was not... talking about the generation of His Apostles, but about the last generation at the end of this present world.

So those of Jesus' generation and the disciples were not alive when there wars and rumors of war, false messiahs, persecution, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

So applying formal grammar like 'you' which can apply to people in general, when speaking to a group, cannot change His specific declaration of all... those signs being fulfilled in the last generation.

But wasn't Jesus privately giving the olivet discourse to his disciples, and not general people?

If Jesus was speaking privately to his disciples about the end of the age, it would be very inappropriate for him to keep saying 'you' will see all these things if he didn't actually mean 'you'.

It's like if me and 2 friends each had 100 shares of stock in a company, and I knew the company was going to tank in the next month. I pull my friends privately to the side and tell them this company is going to release 4 announcements before it tanks and they should sell their stock after the 3rd announcement so they don't lose all their money. Was I talking to them, or was this message for someone else? Someone 2000+ years later maybe?

 

[claninja]

Earthly Jerusalem has never been the eternal inheritance of believers from any age, based on Hebrews 11:15-16.

I absolutely agree, but it was a promise to the Israelites under the old covenant.

Exodus 23:30-31
“I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land. 31“I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.

However, now that the old covenant has been done away with, the earthly land promises of Jerusalem are no more. And under the new covenant we have much better promises:

Hebrews 8:6
Now, however, Jesus has received a far superior ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is superior and is founded on better promises.

And these better promises were always meant to be the true promise:

Hebrews 11:15-16
If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

With the old covenant only being a shadow of these true promises:

Hebrews 10:1
he Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

Do you think "the times of the Gentiles" Christ spoke of in Luke 21:24 is different from the "times of the Gentiles" that Paul referred to in Romans 11?

To be perfectly honest, I don't know. I tend to lean toward that they are different, as one talks about Israel's destruction, while the other talks about the salvation of gentiles. but they could have the same endpoint: coming of Christ

If we look at the fulness of the gentiles and the times of the gentiles in the context of meaning the same thing, there's one problem:

When did the times of the gentiles start?

According to Jesus, at Jerusalem's destruction in 70ad
According to Paul, it started when the gospel went to the gentiles, which was before Jerusalem's destruction.

I know we differ on this, but I believe the old covenant ended at Jerusalem's/temple's destruction, with curses of the old covenant fulfilling the days of vengeance through it's destruction in 70ad.

With the fulfilling of the curses, the old covenant passed away and earthly jerusalem was no longer the inheritance. Now with new covenant and its better promises, believers inherit the heavenly jerusalem, which, as we agree, was always the true jerusalem. And it can never be trampled. While the earthly old covenant Israel was trampled until its destruction and it was cast out.

 

[claninja]

Your really taking those verses out of context.


1 Corinthians 10-11 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings From Israel’s History

10
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

That's talking about the Mosaic age ending but they are examples for us. I can get you comentaries if needed ?

I agree with you, that the context is about the end of the mosaic age. So no, i'm not taking it out of context. the coming of Christ would occur at the end of the old covenant age, when he would come, destroy the wicked tenants and the give the kingdom of God to a new nation: his body (the saints)

hen we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Young's Literal Translation

This has happened a few times in the NT. Where they say, you or we.

But what Paul is saying is the Living christians at time of the Jesus's return will be caught up to meet the lord in air.

Paul did live in hope that christ would come back again and tells other christians too as well. He also says no one knows when, like christ did. I can get the verses if neccasary.

Again, I think it would be inappropriate for Paul to continue to use 'you' and 'we' if he didn't really mean it. Especially when talking about something so important as the coming of Christ.

Paul believing in the coming of Christ and resurrection being his life time also correlates with:

Acts 24:15
having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

 

[Micah888]

However, now that the old covenant has been done away with, the earthly land promises of Jerusalem are no more...

Not necessarily. The Abrahamic Covenant was given long before the Old Covenant, therefore it is still applicable to redeemed and restored Israel (believing Israel) after the second coming of Christ. There are many Scriptures to support that, and even Paul confirms it.