WHY IS DANIEL 9:24-27 ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE ?

[dougangel]

Jesus was not giving us a history lesson or talked about literal stones of the buildings. Rather he compared the stones with the people of the congregation which his body (Temple) represents. Of course, you are blindly looking for secular/carnal fulfillment just like the Jewish leaders of old and premillennialists.

I actually accept alot of what you say is truth spiritually. But that statement above just isn't right. Prophecy has many sides or dimensions and history and the prophecies can repeat themselves. No stone was left to the temple. He didn't mention that about Jeruselam although he said Jerusalem would be destroyed and it was.

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
Luke 21
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

They are actaully looking at the physical temple and Jesus is talking about it.
20 “
When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfilment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

History shows that Titus tried to preserve the Temple ordering his soldiers not to destroy or burn it. But their anger against the Jews was so intense and maddened by the resistance they encountered, they disobeyed the order and set fire to the Temple. There were great quantities of gold stored in the Temple for safekeeping which melted and ran down between the rocks and into the cracks of the stones. In their greed to obtain this gold they pried apart the massive stones, thus quite literally, not one stone was left standing upon another just as Jesus had said. The Temple itself was totally destroyed, though the wall supporting the area upon which the Temple was built was left partially intact and a portion of it still remains called the Western Wall. The wall wasn't part of the temple.

Deuteronomy 28
Blessing and Curses. Best to read all of 28
49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

So the destruction of Jeruselem and the Israel being scattered to the nations happened in 70 AD is 40 years from Christs ministry of which he was rejected. Which is about the time Moses didn't go into the promised land. Israel was given 40 years grace and of course the disciples new what was going to happen. But if you know the history of what happen around 70 AD Deuteronomy 28 is amazing writing.

 

[The Times]

Jesus did allude to the physical temple. 40 years Grace were given for the unbelieving Jews to say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. They failed the 6 conditions as Jesus had prophesied, where the Kingdom will be taken from them and given to another people.

 

[BABerean2]

The Temple itself was totally destroyed, though the wall supporting the area upon which the Temple was built was left partially intact and a portion of it still remains called the Western Wall. The wall wasn't part of the temple.

Recent underground excavations by Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron revealed a Roman coin whose date proves that the area now known as "The Wailing Wall" was built after Herod's temple was completed.

That wall and the area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia, which was built to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ. "The Temple Mount" is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during the same time period.

Within the past year or so a Roman amphitheater was discovered underground at "The Wailing Wall", once again proving that the structure was built by the Romans.

Read the book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke, which contains the recent archeological evidence.

See the link below.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

.

 

[claninja]

True actually, it was his sacrifice of swine with the spreading of its broth that was inside the temple.

I think the pig was also sacrificed on the alter outside the temple building, but the blood was sprinkled in the holy of holies.

The Luke 21:20 passage many miss. It's really not the same subject as Matt.24:15-16. Instead, it's for the time of the very last day when Jesus returns, i.e., the day of vengance of Isaiah 61:2. The subject flow is more about the last day of this world.

Luke 21 is definitely about the destruction of Israel in 70AD, it's also confirmed in Luke 19. The subjects in the prophecies are not some distant 2000+ generation, but the very people standing in front of Jesus.

Luke 19:41-44
As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon YOU when your enemies will barricade YOU and surround YOU and hem YOU in on every side. 44They will level YOU to the ground—YOU and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because YOU did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

Additionally, you believe the discourse in Luke 21 is not the same discourse as Matthew 24? do you have evidence for this?

Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

This "desolation" is not about the "abomination of desolation". It's about the desolation of God destroying those armies on the last day of this world. That's what will happen when Jesus returns there.

Then what is purpose of Jesus saying 'when YOU SHALL SEE', if they wouldn't actually see it?
It seems like these instructions wouldn't really do them any good.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

This is new info that wasn't given in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions. This is about Isaiah 61:2, the final event of this world with God taking vengance upon the earth on the "day of the Lord". This links to that "desolation" of verse 20, not the AOD which will occur around 1260 days earlier when it's placed in false worship in Jerusalem.

Is every story, the exact same, word for word, in each of the gospels? Or are there slight differences in the same stories in each gospel?

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Truly, there is a "with child" metaphor God used in the OT regarding the spiritual harlot who goes after idols. Those who bow to the idol abomination of Dan.11:31 will be considered spiritual harlots, like Apostle Paul warned against in 2 Cor.11, and was warned of about taking the mark of the beast or his name or image. God's wrath will be upon those, pointing to that day of vengance.

Again, not some future generation, but the very people in front of Jesus:

Luke 19:41-44
As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon YOU when your enemies will barricade YOU and surround YOU and hem YOU in on every side. 44They will level YOU to the ground—YOU and the children within YOUR walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because YOU did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The first part of that was history from the 70 A.D. events. But the second part is about a new temple in Jerusalem shown in Revelation 11:1-2, and the Gentiles treading Jerusalem at the very end of this world, pointing back to those armies surrounding Jerusalem for the end of this world in prep for Armageddon which is when Jesus comes.

The old covenant, earthly Jerusalem was trampled by gentiles and destroyed in 70AD.
The new covenant, heavenly Jerusalem is now the inheritance for all who believe.
The heavenly Jerusalem cannot be trampled by gentiles, and thus the times of gentiles trampling Jerusalem is fulfilled, as the heavenly Jerusalem is the true Jerusalem.

Galatians 4:24-26, 30-31
These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. But what does the Scripture say? “Expel the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”d Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Unless, do you believe God will reinstate the old covenant with earthly Jerusalem in the future?

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Sign's of Jesus' 2nd coming, not 70 A.D.

this verse is parallel with:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken
Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken

Is Jesus quoting from anything in the old testament? Yes he is:

Isaiah 13:10, 13
For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place.

This passage in Isaiah is concerning judgment on the ancient nation of Babylon:

Isaiah 13:1
The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

And how Babylon will be destroyed:

Isaiah 13:17,19
Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah

Jesus is using this same apocalyptic language that Isaiah used for ancient Babylon to pronounce judgment on Israel.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Jesus told the Pharisees they would also see this:

Matthew 26:64
jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up YOUR heads; for YOUR redemption draweth nigh.

This is directed at Jesus' disciples standing in front of him.
_______________________________________________________________________________

There were 4 earthly kingdoms that would rule over earthly Jerusalem, until the messiah would come to establish the kingdom of God.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever
Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

According to the prophecy in Daniel 7, the kingdom would be given to the saints when the son of man came on the clouds of heaven to the ancient of days. This occurs just after the little horn is judged and destroyed.

Daniel 7:11-13
“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:26-27
But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’c

Now we come to the 4th kingdom (Rome) and Jesus, the messiah, is present on earth preaching the kingdom is near.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Jesus preached that he would go to a distant country (heaven) to claim and kingdom and return to reward his servants and destroy those who did not want him to be king,

Luke 19:21
And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them (unbelieving old covenant Israel), bring them here and slay them in front of me.’”

He preached that the kingdom would be taken from old covenant Israel and given to a new nation at its (old covenant Jerusalem) destruction

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from YOU and given to a people (his saints) who will produce its fruit.k

He preached that his coming would occur at the end of age when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed.

Christ came in a cloud with power when he judged Israel for not recognizing the time of their visitation. The kingdom was then taken from old covenant Israel and given to a new nation, his saints.

 

[claninja]

That's not good enough! Never has been! In world history, that might be good enough. In Social Studies, that might be good enough. Like in playing horseshoes, close would be good enough. But we are dealing with God's Holy Word which must be understood correctly, and it's not good enough to you? So you go to different sources:

If we are interested in the history of the Jews, specifically during the 400 years of silence, then what resources should we use to learn about it?

 

[Davy]

That is not the point. The point is those that are EASILY CONFUSED because they can not understand the passage confuses it much easier because the translator in this instance didn't separate the verse in the correct place. They should be able to understand it but they can't

My point remains, they have the verses dissected wrongly here.

And my point is just as valid for those who can... understand the events of each verse regardless of chapter divisions. Those who fail to understand each precept upon precept, line upon line like God showed how to study in Isaiah 28 are simply confused because they don't know how to study God's Word, or, God has not shown them and His Word is still closed off to their understanding.

 

[Davy]

That is not the biblical facts based on what Jesus talked about in Scripture.

Jesus was not giving us a history lesson or talked about literal stones of the buildings. Rather he compared the stones with the people of the congregation which his body (Temple) represents. Of course, you are blindly looking for secular/carnal fulfillment just like the Jewish leaders of old and premillennialists.

God's Holy Writ is not to be turned into spiritualizations. Even when His Word gives allegory and metaphor it's always about something literal in relation to the flow of the passage or chapter. And in the case of the Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy, for us it definitely involves both history and future fulfillment not yet come to pass. In Daniel's day it was all a future filfillment to him when he was given it. 69 weeks (or sevens) have been fulfilled; the final seven has yet to occur, and will occur in the last generation that will see Jesus' 2nd coming back to this earth.

 

[Davy]

Did you ignore the remainder of my post.....
come on......please believe in the witnesses of scriptures......Apostle Paul, Apostle John, Hebres writer and even Jesus.

I have already responded to all this here in this thread, probably more than once. The prince in the 2nd sentence of Dan.9:26 whose people destroy the city and sanctuary is NOT Jesus. It was the Roman general Titus and his Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

And the subject of the "he" in the next Dan.9:27 verse continues about that prince (Titus), which is not Jesus. The Dan.9:27 events are further explained in Dan.11 about the "vile person" who makes a "league" in Jerusalem, coming to power using peace, then helps establish the old covenant sacrifices again, and then ends them and instead places the abomination idol that pollutes the sanctuary.

The direct parallels between the events of the Dan.9:27 verse and the events about the "vile person" of Dan.11 are easy.

1.
Dan.9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many...

About the "vile person" of Dan.9:11:21 (not Jesus):

Dan.11:23 - And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

2.
Dan.9:27 - ... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

Dan.11:30 - ... he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Dan.11:31 - And arms shall stand on his part, ..., and shall take away the daily sacrifice....


3.
Dan.9:27 - ... And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation... (NIV)

Dan.11:31 - ...they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, ..., and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Very easy.

 

[Davy]

That is one witness you used, whilst ignoring what Jesus said and what I had posted earlier. It would be highly probable that you are collapsing the context. Acts 1 needs a context, from other witnesses in scripture and you haven't presented any by the way.

That's a very weak game you're trying to play. The Apostles upon the Mount of Olives in Acts 1 were told that Jesus will return in like manner how He ascended to Heaven, which is not a mystery, since He was caught up in a cloud right in front of them! Zechariah 14, of which I'm sure you are familiar, also reveals Jesus' 2nd coming with His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives. In His Olivet Discourse He revealed His returning in a cloud, as also in Revelation 1. Enoch's prophecy in Jude 1 is even very telling about Christ's return to this earth with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment upon this world. There are many other Bible references to His return to this earth.

 

[Davy]

It is like that Hollywood movie, "If you built it they will come".

Certainly, the Israel and Jerusalem of today has been built by and for the Anti-Christ agents to come, in order to usher in their Grand Master Anti-Christ, to whom they will accept when he comes in his own name.

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. (John 5:43)

29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (John 14:29-31)

How prophetic Jesus, for your name is blessed above all names, all to the glory of the Father.

Historical evidence has it that God did allow the building up of Israel, Jerusalem and its walls, for the coming of his salvation Agent, the Promised Seed of His Covenant, who is Jesus Christ.

It is evident that the prophetic Old Testament Word given to Daniel through Gabriel is for the building up of Jerusalem for the coming of Jesus Christ, who confirms the Covenant of God with the many Gentile nations of the world in one week (70th week).

The Israel and Jerusalem of the times we are living in, has no prophetic relevance to Daniel's 70th week coming of Messiah the Prince, as God's salvation Agent.

In fact we can discern that what ever the Anti-Christs have built up today, along with the forecasted third temple abomination and abominable sacrifices, is for the other guy to come on the scene as the nationalistic Messiah, who has the concerns of the flesh and not the concerns of the Holy Spirit.

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. (Roman's 8:5-7)

There is a worldly fleshly peace governed by the mind of flesh and there is the Godly spiritual peace governed by the mind and heart of the Spirit.

We have two groups manifesting side by side, as it was foretold by Jesus before the end.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. (Is omans 8:9)

The story of the Wheat and the Tares comes to mind towards the end of the Harvest of God, when there will be a great divide, a sword of separation that Jesus will foment (stir up) in the times that we are living in.

What have the Anti-Christ agents built up in the times we are living in?

A counterfeit to the one 2000 years ago.

Is it prophetic to God's word given to Daniel?

Absolutely not!

Why have they built up Israel and Jerusalem in the times we are living in?

To receive the other guy.

That is, if they build it He (Anti-Christ) will come.

What a strange... post. You recognize the next temple in Jerusalem the unbelieving Jews are preparing today to build will be for the coming Antichrist. But you fail to recognize how that coincides with the Dan.11 prophecy of what the "vile person" does.

Just because someone back in history couldn't understand how the final "one week" of the Daniel 9 prophecy is set for the very end of this world in the final generation, that means the 70 weeks events have to be understand as consecutive with no time gap with the final "one week"? Thinking that the Dan.9:24 events have to all occur in the same century is like saying when we count from 1 to 70 we can't stop at 69 to pause for a second.

 

[Davy]

....
Luke 21 is definitely about the destruction of Israel in 70AD, it's also confirmed in Luke 19. The subjects in the prophecies are not some distant 2000+ generation, but the very people standing in front of Jesus.

Well no, the Luke 21 events are actually about the signs of the end of this world and relate to the 6 Seals of Rev.6 which was given to the seven Churches in Asia (Minor). The main difference with Luke 21 compared to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, is that Luke 21 gives us new information about the armies of the Antichrist that will surround Jerusalem in the last generation.

In Luke 19, Jesus was upon a colt at the base of the Mount of Olives when the Pharisees asked Him to rebuke His disciples. That's to whom and when He gave the prophecy of Jerusalem's 70 A.D. destruction, not in Luke 21 when He was upon the Mount of Olives when His disciples came to Him privately asking about the signs of the end of the world and of His second coming (Matt.24:3).

Additionally, you believe the discourse in Luke 21 is not the same discourse as Matthew 24? do you have evidence for this?

There are differences, new info is what I said. I never said they are not... the same conversations Jesus had with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives. Most of the signs Jesus gave in Luke 21 overlap the signs in Matt.24 & Mark 13.

Then what is purpose of Jesus saying 'when YOU SHALL SEE', if they wouldn't actually see it?
It seems like these instructions wouldn't really do them any good.

Not everything written in The Four Gospels was a historical witness for their times. If you don't believe that, then it would mean you don't actually believe The Gospel is even relevant for today.

When Jesus told the Jews that they won't see Him again until they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven, do you really think those Jews of that time saw that happen then? If you believe that is so, then why even bother to read The Bible, since it would mean all prophecies in it have been fulfilled back then and there's nothing left for our future? It would mean the wicked today still continue to do wickedness from now on, since it would suggest that God's Kingdom is already been fulfilled today and there's nothing more that will be done. It would mean what a lot of eastern religions believe, i.e., that for the world to exist there must always be both positive and negative forces, Ying-Yang, God vs. Lucifer, etc. Who would want us to believe that? The devil would of course, yet he knows he has but a short time, as written.

So if the Jews of that time didn't see Jesus' return coming in the clouds, then what time is that event set for? In Matt.24:33-34 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled," what generation was He talking about, and what are "all these things"? "all these things" of course were the signs He gave there in Matt.24, the final sign being that of His return and gathering of His saints. Did that include the sign of not one stone standing on top of another? Yes, for that's about the final destruction to occur in Jerusalem on the day of His return. It's the "sudden destruction" Apostle Paul talked about that happens on the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5). All those things that generation was to see. That of course cannot mean multiple generations, nor the days of the Apostles, because their generation era is past already, and Jesus' second coming still has yet to happen. The answer is simple:

It has to be the generation of the end of this present world that will 'see' Jesus' second coming, because even today Jesus has still not yet come to gather His Church, which was the final sign He gave.

The only other possibility is that Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church already happened back in the Apostle's days. If that were true, then where are they today? Why hasn't Jesus gathered the rest of His Church then? That kind of silliness raises all sorts of un-Biblical inane ideas, revealing easily that idea as a doctrine of devils. We still await Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church sometime in the future.

Is every story, the exact same, word for word, in each of the gospels? Or are there slight differences in the same stories in each gospel?

I pretty much answered that above with the Luke 21 comparison.

Again, not some future generation, but the very people in front of Jesus:

I explained that too. It's the generation that will 'see' "all these things", i.e., all the signs He gave there, including His second coming and gathering of His Church, which of course has NOT happened yet today. That's the final sign He gave in His Olivet Discourse.

The old covenant, earthly Jerusalem was trampled by gentiles and destroyed in 70AD.
The new covenant, heavenly Jerusalem is now the inheritance for all who believe.
The heavenly Jerusalem cannot be trampled by gentiles, and thus the times of gentiles trampling Jerusalem is fulfilled, as the heavenly Jerusalem is the true Jerusalem.

By that you should easily see the difference with 70 A.D. and the final Antichrist that comes at the end of the world, comparing the Dan.9:26-27 & Dan.11 references, because the "vile person" establishes the old covenant and sacrifices again, not destroys them. Only after that by placing the abomination that makes desolate does he end the sacrifices. And Antichrist doesn't destroy the temple.

Unless, do you believe God will reinstate the old covenant with earthly Jerusalem in the future?

Your Galatians quote is irrelevant to this matter in Christ's Olivet Discourse. When the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem build their new temple in our near future, and start the old covenant sacrifices, that will not be our Heavenly Father behind that. That will be the unbelieving Jews behind that, simply because they reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, so they still... believe today they are under the old covenant. It has been the orthodox Jew's plan to re-establish the temple and old covenant worship all along with the creation of the nation state of Israel again.

But of course, I'm sure you know these things, so your arguments are now getting wildly speculative and meaningless.

 

[jgr]

I have already responded to all this here in this thread, probably more than once. The prince in the 2nd sentence of Dan.9:26 whose people destroy the city and sanctuary is NOT Jesus. It was the Roman general Titus and his Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

We all (even yourself, unless you've physically erased it) see the word "Messiah" in the passage.

None of us (not even yourself, unless you've physically inserted it) see the word "Titus" in the passage.

Conclusion?

 

[jgr]

God's Holy Writ is not to be turned into spiritualizations. Even when His Word gives allegory and metaphor it's always about something literal in relation to the flow of the passage or chapter.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even we who are believers can suffer from degrees of the affliction of the natural man which can hinder spiritual discernment. We need to maintain personal spiritual vigilance.


1 Corinthians 15:46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The spiritual transcends the natural, requiring spiritual discernment.


The spiritual perspective is the perspective of the spiritual man and woman.

 

[Davy]

We all (even yourself, unless you've physically erased it) see the word "Messiah" in the passage.

You wouldn't be trying to deceive folks, would you? Note you failed to actually give which Dan.9 verse with "Messiah" in it, that you might be talking about.

None of us (not even yourself, unless you've physically inserted it) see the word "Titus" in the passage.

Conclusion?

I was specific as to the passage I was talking about in Dan.9:26, the 2nd sentence, which of course you will NOT find the word "Messiah" in that sentence.

And I don't see "jgr" listed anywhere in God's Holy Writ either, yet don't you believe on Jesus Christ as your Savior too, and list yourself among His saints, which that word saints does occur in God's Word? So your point about the name Titus not being specifically written there is kind of funny and irrelevant.

 

[jgr]

You wouldn't be trying to deceive folks, would you? Note you failed to actually give which Dan.9 verse with "Messiah" in it, that you might be talking about.



I was specific as to the passage I was talking about in Dan.9:26, the 2nd sentence, which of course you will NOT find the word "Messiah" in that sentence.

And I don't see "jgr" listed anywhere in God's Holy Writ either, yet don't you believe on Jesus Christ as your Savior too, and list yourself among His saints, which that word saints does occur in God's Word? So your point about the name Titus not being specifically written there is kind of funny and irrelevant.

I'll leave that for a chuckle for our readers.

 

[Davy]

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is not about man's spiritualizations. What Paul was talking about is being given understanding by The Holy Spirit, and that will ALWAYS involve literal Truths, whether they be of Heavenly or earthly.

Men's spiritualizations are things like taking the creation account in Genesis and trying to say that it's all just a writing of poetry or symbolic philosophy, or ideas like the devil isn't a real person, but only just an evil force, etc. That kind of thinking is more allied to secular philosophy than to God's Truth in His Word.

Even we who are believers can suffer from degrees of the affliction of the natural man which can hinder spiritual discernment. We need to maintain personal spiritual vigilance.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The spiritual transcends the natural, requiring spiritual discernment.

The spiritual perspective is the perspective of the spiritual man and woman.

The new Jerusalem in Revelation that is to come down out of Heaven to the earth from God, is that a spiritualization?

 

[Davy]

I'll leave that for a chuckle for our readers.

I don't think they'd chuckle over it, but instead would see my point of you failing to be specific about what passage you were referring to.

 

[dougangel]

You wouldn't be trying to deceive folks, would you? Note you failed to actually give which Dan.9 verse with "Messiah" in it, that you might be talking about.



I was specific as to the passage I was talking about in Dan.9:26, the 2nd sentence, which of course you will NOT find the word "Messiah" in that sentence.

And I don't see "jgr" listed anywhere in God's Holy Writ either, yet don't you believe on Jesus Christ as your Savior too, and list yourself among His saints, which that word saints does occur in God's Word? So your point about the name Titus not being specifically written there is kind of funny and irrelevant.

Daniel 9:25
King James Bible
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

[jgr]

That is not about man's spiritualizations. What Paul was talking about is being given understanding by The Holy Spirit, and that will ALWAYS involve literal Truths, whether they be of Heavenly or earthly.

Men's spiritualizations are things like taking the creation account in Genesis and trying to say that it's all just a writing of poetry or symbolic philosophy, or ideas like the devil isn't a real person, but only just an evil force, etc. That kind of thinking is more allied to secular philosophy than to God's Truth in His Word.



The new Jerusalem in Revelation that is to come down out of Heaven to the earth from God, is that a spiritualization?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...

If I were in the Spirit like John, I would expect that what I see is spiritual. You may or will disagree.

Your turn. Is this Jerusalem a spiritualization?

Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:25
King James Bible
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And the Daniel 9:26 passage, where is the word "Messiah" in the 2nd sentence about the people of the prince that comes to destroy the city and the sanctuary???

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:25
King James Bible
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And the Daniel 9:26 passage, where is the word "Messiah" in the 2nd sentence about the people of the prince that comes to destroy the city and the sanctuary???