Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

[EmSw]

No. He amended the rules on who stays or goes to and from hell.

So God changed His mind?

 

[needhugs]

So, Jesus took our place in the lake of fire?

no haha... no no no

 

[Landon Caeli]

So God changed His mind?

No, promises were kept that were prophesied of in the Covenants. It was arranged in our time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That isn't in question here.

If you don't trust Him, there's no hope, no answer for you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Most likely answer is that your underlying premise is flawed. St. Paul says the wages of sin is death, because throughout Scripture sin and death are tied together. This connection can be seen especially in Paul's writings where he speaks of our sinful, fallen condition as "the flesh", speaking of there being even a "law of sin" in our "members".

Look at what the Apostle says in Romans 6, notice what he says, "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin." (v 6-7) and "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God." (v 9-10).

Christ is victor over sin and death by His death and resurrection. His death is an assault on the power of sin since He is without sin. The death of the righteous has put to death unrighteousness, "He who was without sin became sin"

Further, your premise assumes that Christ's death is chiefly a transaction and judicial act. Which isn't to say those elements aren't part of the Mystery, but perhaps the emphasis is inherently problematic. Namely, the premise is that Christ must be punished because we are supposed to be punished (Penal Substitution), therefore whatever it is that we are supposed to get Christ gets instead. I'd say change the focus, the focus isn't that Christ was punished (by God) instead of us, thus a legal transaction was made; but rather that Christ joins Himself to our own suffering, mortality, death, and sin in order to defeat them. As the just one His own righteousness crucifies unrighteousness, He brings the weight of our cursed humanity upon Himself in order to vest us with His own glorious humanity. This is, in part, the language of recapitulation, where by Adam's sin the world fell into sin and death Christ has, as the second Adam and new man, righteously overcome and healed Adam's wounds. Where Adam died, Christ has made alive. Where Adam was disobedient, Christ was obedient. Adam's defeat is reversed in Christ's victory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[paul1149]

That's a silly comparison.

Starvation is not the price of the meal.

And that, my friend, is EXACTLY the point. Eternal punishment is not the price of our reconciliation. It is the consequence. All the punishment in the world would not reconcile us to God. Jesus paid the price, so there are no longer consequences.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And that, my friend, is EXACTLY the point. Eternal punishment is not the price of our reconciliation. It is the consequence. All the punishment in the world would not reconcile us to God. Jesus paid the price, so there are no longer consequences.

Thank you - this reminded me of Jesus instructions to His disciples going out to others:

"When you enter a house, say 'Shalom: Peace and Healing and Joy, Freedom from Sin and from ALL the Consequences of Sin BE TO YOUR HOUSEHOLD TODAY' "

If they receive you, your shalom (blessing) will remain with them.
If they reject you, don't worry - it is not you they are rejecting, it means they reject ME(JESUS),
and the shalom will leave. (woe to them!)

 

[EmSw]

And that, my friend, is EXACTLY the point. Eternal punishment is not the price of our reconciliation. It is the consequence. All the punishment in the world would not reconcile us to God. Jesus paid the price, so there are no longer consequences.

What do you consider to be the price Jesus paid?

 

[Landon Caeli]

No, promises were kept that were prophesied of in the Covenants. It was arranged in our time.

Prophecy From the Old Testament, Gods Covenant with the Jews:

ISAIAH
Chapter 53
3He was spurned and avoided by men,

a man of suffering, knowing pain,

Like one from whom you turn your face,

spurned, and we held him in no esteem.c

4Yet it was our pain that he bore,

our sufferings he endured.

We thought of him as stricken,

struck down by God* and afflicted,d

5But he was pierced for our sins,

crushed for our iniquity.

He bore the punishment that makes us whole,

by his wounds we were healed.e

6We had all gone astray like sheep,

all following our own way;

But the LORD laid upon him*

the guilt of us all.f

7Though harshly treated, he submitted

and did not open his mouth;

Like a lamb led to slaughter

or a sheep silent before shearers,

he did not open his mouth.g

8Seized and condemned, he was taken away.

Who would have thought any more of his destiny?

For he was cut off from the land of the living,

struck for the sins of his people.

9He was given a grave among the wicked,

a burial place with evildoers,

Though he had done no wrong,

nor was deceit found in his mouth.h

10But it was the LORD’s will to crush him with pain.

By making his life as a reparation offering,*

he shall see his offspring, shall lengthen his days,

and the LORD’s will shall be accomplished through him.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Isaiah's Messianic Prophecies.htm

 

[ubicaritas]

That's another good reason to be a Lutheran, because we don't necessarily have this notion that Jesus descent into hell was to pay a legal penalty. Jesus descent into Hell was to destroy the power of hell.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Yes he did, he paid the full price. Without the resurrection we have no hope of being in glorified bodies. He paid the full price for freedom from the body of flesh for His people. He might have to stay dead if He paid the full price for those spiritually dead for eternity. WHOM He died for is crucial to this notion of FULL price.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's another good reason to be a Lutheran, because we don't necessarily have this notion that Jesus descent into hell was to pay a legal penalty. Jesus descent into Hell was to destroy the power of hell.

I was raised LCMS and taught that also. I'm not at all sure that it is accurate today:
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did-jesus-really-descend-into-hell/
"But the phrase “he descended into hell” does not occur in the Bible."
"It is surprising to find that the phrase “he descended into hell” was not found in any of the early versions of the Creed"

I haven't 'studied' it per se...... it might be interesting to find out more, eh ? (not to derail this thread though)

 

[Landon Caeli]

What do you consider to be the price Jesus paid?

*as prophesied:

"By his wounds, we were healed"
~Isaiah 53:5

 

[ubicaritas]

I was raised LCMS and taught that also. I'm not at all sure that it is accurate today:
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did-jesus-really-descend-into-hell/
"But the phrase “he descended into hell” does not occur in the Bible."
"It is surprising to find that the phrase “he descended into hell” was not found in any of the early versions of the Creed"

I haven't 'studied' it per se...... it might be interesting to find out more, eh ? (not to derail this thread though)

It is implied in the Bible, however, even if not explicitly stated in that language (he went down and took captives (Eph 4:8), means that he was victorious over hell, like a Roman general parading captives). It's in our creed we use so therefore it is status confessionis the same as our other confessional documents. As Luther said, the old stained glass and artistic works of the Church are sufficient to teach on this doctrine.

It is also a theme that appears in some of the hymns we use.

 

[Chinchilla]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Personal Opinion

Jesus paid the price for sin before he died . Jesus said it is finished and then gave up the ghost not the other way around. It was finished before he died not after he resurrected .

You could use the anology that High Priest would need first to clean himself and do sacrifice for himself before entering Holy of Holies and doing the sacrifice for people . So Jesus took the sin on himself , cleaned himself and then ascended to heaven into Holy of Holies .

It has something to do with these passages .

John 20:17 and John 20:27.
Looks like Jesus went to heaven and back after he died .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is implied in the Bible, however, even if not explicitly stated in that language (he went down and took captives (Eph 4:8), means that he was victorious over hell, like a Roman general parading captives). It's in our creed we use so therefore it is status confessionis the same as our other confessional documents. As Luther said, the old stained glass and artistic works of the Church are sufficient to teach on this doctrine.

It is also a theme that appears in some of the hymns we use.

That sounds like saying "We say this, so we believe this" the way the rcc has for what ? 2000 years, who we protested (rightly so!) against ! .....

Yet I'm not dogmatic about this.... Yahweh very slowly, very gently over decades, moved me to His Word, following Jesus as He leads to green pastures and still waters, Truth, in Jesus, without even debating or any fighting at all about such things ! (amazing grace - sheer grace ! ) .... (ie. there would be no benefit debating it on this forum, as far as I have ever known no one ever changes their mind or is saved on the internet (others recently said there have been some people helped, but that remains untested and unproven for me so far ) ) .......

That link I posted earlier was just found by a 0.01 second search ! .... I went back to it and read a little of the page after posting it...... may be some good sound reliable information there, but I didn't have time to vet it yet. (i.e. test everything).....

 

[ubicaritas]

In light of the descensus, Christ's death actually becomes a victory, because he enters the human world as God's "secret agent" to destroy the power of death itself. So rather than thinking of the Cross in a purely juridical manner, we can also think of it as a victory, like dropping an atom bomb that will end the war, even though the war is not yet over. This is why in some medieval iconic depictions of Christ (the Christus Rex), Christ is depicted as a king, suggesting the Cross is the place that Christ reigns.

 

[ubicaritas]

That sounds like saying "We say this, so we believe this" the way the rcc has for what ? 2000 years, who we protested (rightly so!) against ! .....

Yet I'm not dogmatic about this.... Yahweh very slowly, very gently over decades, moved me to His Word, following Jesus as He leads to green pastures and still waters, Truth, in Jesus, without even debating or any fighting at all about such things ! (amazing grace - sheer grace ! ) .... (ie. there would be no benefit debating it on this forum, as far as I have ever known no one ever changes their mind or is saved on the internet (others recently said there have been some people helped, but that remains untested and unproven for me so far ) ) .......

That link I posted earlier was just found by a 0.01 second search ! .... I went back to it and read a little of the page after posting it...... may be some good sound reliable information there, but I didn't have time to vet it yet. (i.e. test everything).....

That's not just my church tradition but its the obvious culture context of Ephesians 4:8. A train of captives was routinely part of a victory celebration in ancient cities after a war, representing the power of the ruler or general to humiliate the vanquished. So Hell is not merely destroyed but also humiliated.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is implied in the Bible, however, even if not explicitly stated in that language (he went down and took captives (Eph 4:8), means that he was victorious over hell, like a Roman general parading captives). It's in our creed we use so therefore it is status confessionis the same as our other confessional documents. As Luther said, the old stained glass and artistic works of the Church are sufficient to teach on this doctrine.

It is also a theme that appears in some of the hymns we use.

It is, of course, worth noting that the original Latin is "descendit ad inferos", "He descended into the depths" or "descended into the lower regions", i.e. the place of the dead. There's some confusion because the word "hell" is used pretty liberally for a lot of different ideas that aren't the same thing. The "hell" Christ descended into was the realm of the dead, She'ol, Hades, not some place of endless punishments. The emphasis here is that our Lord really died, and it is connected to the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell as you've mentioned. Christ's victory over and defeat of hell.

That we also call the abode of the wicked (Gehenna) and the Revelation's lake of fire "hell" is an easy way to way to conflate ideas.

But as you say, Christ's descent into hell is Christ's victory over it. Our Lord did not suffer in the depths of hell, but rather overcame and destroyed its power, by rising from the dead. As the ancient hymn says, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the tombs, bestowing life"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[paul1149]

What do you consider to be the price Jesus paid?

A perfect life. "A life for a life".