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Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

EmSw

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John 17:3
Now this is eternal life--that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Note carefully how Jesus defines "eternal life" and note he does not equate it to a period of time but a state of being.

The opposite of eternal life then, eternal death, is not about a period of time. It's complete separation from God.

Philosophically, eternity isn't really a time either.

So the point is to note that Jesus could suffer eternal death - separation - and yet be raised if he bridged that separation in the "price" (death) itself.

If "eternal" meant "forever" you would have a point. But does it? And what is "forever" anyway?

I believe if you want to engage by asking a good question, you ought to ask good questions of your own assumptions too :). So you need to question what you mean by "eternal life" and provide a definition for the discussion.

How was Jesus separated from knowing Himself?
 
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Anguspure

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Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.

:scratch:

The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?
The price for sin is death.

Jesus died, was buried and on the 3rd day rose from the grave.

Jesus death paid the full price and that price would have been an eternal death if He himself had deserved that fate.

But the value of a truly righteous one is such that even though He took all of our sin upon Himself, His own righteousness and the righteousness of everyone He died for is assured.
 
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EmSw

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You're making the assumption that eternal death means physically dead forever. That is not so. Eternal death is separation from GOD forever while alive.

Is Jesus separated from God forever?
 
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EmSw

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The price for sin is death.

Jesus died, was buried and on the 3rd day rose from the grave.

Jesus death paid the full price and that price would have been an eternal death if He himself had deserved that fate.

But the value of a truly righteous one is such that even though He took all of our sin upon Himself, His own righteousness and the righteousness of everyone He died for is assured.

If the price is physical death, and Jesus paid that price, why does everyone have to die physically?
 
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megan_26

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If the price is physical death, and Jesus paid that price, why does everyone have to die physically?

Jesus conquered death by coming back to life. Therefore the price of sin has been paid. But we still die physically because we do not belong here on earth.
 
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HatGuy

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I take eternal as being about time, as most people do.

Taking it as something else is not the usual interpretation and beyond the subject matter of this thread.
Unfortunately, this does not work.

You can't substitute a biblical definition of 'eternal' for a popular definition of it. If you want to speak theology and philosophy, then you need to speak theology and philosophy. If you want to speak your own language, then any conversation with you would be meaningless.

Reading your or a popular definition of 'eternal' into the scriptures is called eisegesis and renders your original question meaningless. Taking 'eternal' as 'something else' to a popular definition has everything to do with the subject matter of this thread, especially if the popular definition is incorrect.

I've offered a biblical definition of 'eternal life' from John 17:3, and then gone from there. You need to offer where the Bible holds to your definition, and then a discussion would make more sense.
 
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HatGuy

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How was Jesus separated from knowing Himself?
I don't pretend to understand the Trinity :D

But the definition of eternal life is there in John 17:3 and if we're going to discuss eternal life and eternal death, my suggestion is we start with how the bible itself defines it. And what better definition than the one offered by Jesus himself?
 
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EmSw

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Jesus conquered death by coming back to life. Therefore the price of sin has been paid. But we still die physically because we do not belong here on earth.

But how does that pay the price for death? Everyone still has to pay for their own sin through their own death. If He conquered death, why do people still die?
 
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EmSw

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I don't pretend to understand the Trinity :D

But the definition of eternal life is there in John 17:3 and if we're going to discuss eternal life and eternal death, my suggestion is we start with how the bible itself defines it. And what better definition than the one offered by Jesus himself?

I totally agree with Jesus. Eternal life is knowing Him, and eternal death is not knowing Him. Now explain how He came to not know Himself.
 
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HatGuy

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I totally agree with Jesus. Eternal life is knowing Him, and eternal death is not knowing Him. Now explain how He came to not know Himself.
I don't know :confused:. Just like I don't know how God can actually become a man.
 
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AlexDTX

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Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

"If"... you are assuming this to be the case, but the Bible makes no such statement. The wages of sin is death. It does not say eternal death, nor eternal suffering in the lake of fire. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, in that day he would die. They died spiritually the moment they ate, although it took 900 years for the body to fail, too. All humanity is born spiritually dead, which is why when Jesus was asked by a potential disciple if he could delay and attend a family member's funeral, Jesus told him, Let the dead bury their dead, but you follow me.

Because Jesus was sinless both at birth (which means he was the first man born spiritually alive) and throughout his entire life, it was not possible for him to die. Therefore, on the cross it took the sins of the world placed upon him for him to die.

Hebrews 9 tells us:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was ...​

The book of Zechariah paints a picture of Christ facing judgment after dying on the cross. Contextually, of course, Joshua was the high priest during the rule of Zerubbabel, but symbolically it transposes to the future of Christ when he was judged in Hell. By the way, Hell is not the place of punishment, the Lake of Fire is. Hell is jail. No one is justly punished before they face trial. God is much more just than mankind. But, like your assumption, it is based upon tradition to think punishment occurs in Hell. Those in Hell who reject Christ now, are awaiting the White Throne Judgment, then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. But I digress from Zechariah.

Let us consider the passage in chapter 3.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.​

Jesus is our high priest. Symbolically, Jesus stood next to the angel of the LORD who was his advocate, whereas Satan stood by to accuse him.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?​

The LORD (the angel of the LORD), on behalf of the Father, rebuked Satan implying that he had no case since Jesus was a brand plucked out of the fire, or exempt from punishment.

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.​

Filthy garments are a picture of the sins of the world placed upon him that did not belong to Jesus since he was innocent of sin. The change of raiment refers to the glory of his success and promotion as the High Priest.

Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.​

The gift Christ gives to all mankind, if they will accept it, is the freedom to judge our own selves guilty of sin, circumventing the need for trial and judgment after death. When we are born again, we become spiritually alive, which is the new birth, or being born-again.

There is, of course, a judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5) that all believers must face when we shed these mortal frames.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.​

An account of our lives must be given before we receive our rewards and determination of our place in eternity. It is not a judgment for salvation. No one at the judgment seat of Christ need be concerned about being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The White Throne Judgment begins with one point: they are there because they rejected the free gift of life in Christ. They were born spiritually dead and preferred to remain spiritually dead, therefore they get their wish, their death will be magnified.

When the body dies and is buried, it decomposes. Decomposition is the result of consumption by worms and bacteria and oxidization. Oxidization is also called rust when speaking of metal. Jesus said about those in Gehenna (figurative speech regarding the Lake of Fire) that the worms never die and the fire is never quenched. The second death is everlasting decomposition.

Jesus paid the price for death. He died both physically and spiritually, which is why he cried out, My God, My God, why have your forsaken me? At that moment he spiritually died, and like Adam, his physical death manifested afterwards. Your question has given you trouble because your premise is wrong.
 
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Anguspure

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If the price is physical death, and Jesus paid that price, why does everyone have to die physically?
The price is the second (post judgement) death. Jesus died both first and second death. But you can't keep a good man down....
 
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EmSw

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I don't know :confused:. Just like I don't know how God can actually become a man.

Look, you make a valid statement about eternal life. This seems to be the foundation of Christianity. How can one say they don't know what this foundation of Christianity is?

John gives us some details about knowing Him.

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Since we know Jesus kept the commandments, we cannot say He was ever separated from God. How do you propose Jesus was separated?

We also know that if we say we know Him, which is eternal life, John said the following -

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Can we say eternal life, that is, knowing Him, is brought about by keeping His commandments?
 
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Anguspure

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"If"... you are assuming this to be the case, but the Bible makes no such statement. The wages of sin is death. It does not say eternal death, nor eternal suffering in the lake of fire. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, in that day he would die. They died spiritually the moment they ate, although it took 900 years for the body to fail, too. All humanity is born spiritually dead, which is why when Jesus was asked by a potential disciple if he could delay and attend a family member's funeral, Jesus told him, Let the dead bury their dead, but you follow me.

Because Jesus was sinless both at birth (which means he was the first man born spiritually alive) and throughout his entire life, it was not possible for him to die. Therefore, on the cross it took the sins of the world placed upon him for him to die.

Hebrews 9 tells us:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was ...​

The book of Zechariah paints a picture of Christ facing judgment after dying on the cross. Contextually, of course, Joshua was the high priest during the rule of Zerubbabel, but symbolically it transposes to the future of Christ when he was judged in Hell. By the way, Hell is not the place of punishment, the Lake of Fire is. Hell is jail. No one is justly punished before they face trial. God is much more just than mankind. But, like your assumption, it is based upon tradition to think punishment occurs in Hell. Those in Hell who reject Christ now, are awaiting the White Throne Judgment, then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. But I digress from Zechariah.

Let us consider the passage in chapter 3.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.​

Jesus is our high priest. Symbolically, Jesus stood next to the angel of the LORD who was his advocate, whereas Satan stood by to accuse him.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?​

The LORD (the angel of the LORD), on behalf of the Father, rebuked Satan implying that he had no case since Jesus was a brand plucked out of the fire, or exempt from punishment.

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.​

Filthy garments are a picture of the sins of the world placed upon him that did not belong to Jesus since he was innocent of sin. The change of raiment refers to the glory of his success and promotion as the High Priest.

Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.​

The gift Christ gives to all mankind, if they will accept it, is the freedom to judge our own selves guilty of sin, circumventing the need for trial and judgment after death. When we are born again, we become spiritually alive, which is the new birth, or being born-again.

There is, of course, a judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5) that all believers must face when we shed these mortal frames.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.​

An account of our lives must be given before we receive our rewards and determination of our place in eternity. It is not a judgment for salvation. No one at the judgment seat of Christ need be concerned about being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The White Throne Judgment begins with one point: they are there because they rejected the free gift of life in Christ. They were born spiritually dead and preferred to remain spiritual dead, therefore they get their wish, their death will be magnified.
When the body dies and is buried, it decomposes. Decomposition is the result of consumption by worms and bacteria and oxidization. Oxidization is also called rust when speaking of metal. Jesus said about those in Gehenna (figurative speech regarding the Lake of Fire) that the worms never die and the fire is never quenched. The second death is everlasting decomposition.

Jesus paid the price for death. He died both physically and spiritually, which is why he cried out, My God, My God, why have your forsaken me? At that moment he spiritually died, and like Adam, his physical death manifested afterwards. Your question has given you trouble because your premise is wrong.
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction... (2 Thessalonians 1)
 
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Eloy Craft

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Mankind rejected God at the beginning. Adam didn't choose to love God. Having lost the Grace that enabled him to love God put mankind in a hopeless place. Adam and Eve's disobedience was an act of rejection because like faith without works is dead love without obedience is dead too. Works makes faith visible obedience makes love visible. This is the price Jesus paid. Obedience to the Father, obedient even to a humiliating agonizing death on a cross. We read how much Jesus didn't want to have to do it in the Garden of Gethsemane. Understand too that Jesus wouldn't have died if He didn't let us kill Him. This was the acceptable sacrifice. Obedience was not just an external going through the motions. It was the experience of such cruelty. The range is maximum here. The most innocent person ever experiencing the worst punishment developed and institutionalized by human society. Jesus was obedient interiorly as well. Innocent as he was and suffering the most inhumane treatment He remained steadfast in His love for man and God. Jesus' obedience to the Father to this degree was an offering of love that provided infinite satisfaction for sins. Jesus Glorified his Father by being obedient and making His love for Him visible. That satisfied the Father. That's the price Jesus paid in full.
 
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needhugs

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Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.

:scratch:

The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?
hey little sister, what have you done? hey little sister, who's the only ONE? *my billy idol impression*
please disregard if you are a brother and not a sister lol

Jesus had a two prong approach; He died for our sins, price fully paid, then CONQUERED DEATH by raising up again, so that we could then conquer death after Him, being the first born of many breathren... you see? He gave us so much more than forgiveness!

As a matter of fact, if HE DIDN'T RISE FROM THE DEAD, the payment wouldn't have been paid in full, He would have paid our bail then left us in prison i mean... death is the price, it's true, but to make it so that we didn't ever have to pay the price, to be the second Adam... i mean if we are forgiven, then why stay dead? He had to rise to completely do the job of releasing us from the consequences of sin!!!

that lake of fire stuff is.... well, let me find you a video to watch...
this guy has a lot of info, and you are right, the gates to universalism HAVE been opened :)
 
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EmSw

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Mankind rejected God at the beginning. Adam didn't choose to love God. Having lost the Grace that enabled him to love God put mankind in a hopeless place. Adam and Eve's disobedience was an act of rejection because like faith without works is dead love without obedience is dead too. Works makes faith visible obedience makes love visible. This is the price Jesus paid. Obedience to the Father, obedient even to a humiliating agonizing death on a cross. We read how much Jesus didn't want to have to do it in the Garden of Gethsemane. Understand too that Jesus wouldn't have died if He didn't let us kill Him. This was the acceptable sacrifice. Obedience was not just an external going through the motions. It was the experience of such cruelty. The range is maximum here. The most innocent person ever experiencing the worst punishment developed and institutionalized by human society. Jesus was obedient interiorly as well. Innocent as he was and suffering the most inhumane treatment He remained steadfast in His love for man and God. Jesus' obedience to the Father to this degree was an offering of love that provided infinite satisfaction for sins. Jesus Glorified his Father by being obedient and making His love for Him visible. That satisfied the Father. That's the price Jesus paid in full.

Jesus basically said what you have said above.

Luke 24
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Obedience, that is, repenting, gives us remission of sins. Many do not know what remission means. Here is what Strong's says -
  1. release from bondage or imprisonment

  2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Jesus said this after His death and resurrection. Remission did what most people believe Jesus did on the cross. It releases from bondage, forgives or pardons sin, and remits the penalty. This is how the true price is paid.
 
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