Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[BNR32FAN]

Well, you did not offer an alternative interpretation beyond your Christmas Romans 14 interpretation (Which is pretty silly because such a holiday did not even exist at the time Paul was writing). Neither did Paul refer in Romans 14 to it applying to anything we like, either (like worldly holidays). You say that I have an agenda in Romans 14. It is a difficult chapter especially in light of Paul’s statement in Galatians 4:10-11. But you would have to back up your claims why you believe I have one by what I stated. I am happy to change my view on Romans 14 if one clarifies it better. But this would have to be in context to the surrounding chapters and should be able to be cross referenced with other parts of the New Testament, as well.



Again, you did not offer WHY I was interpreting Romans 14 wrongfully.
You also do not see any moral problem in lying to your children about how Santa is real when in fact he is not.
Think a moment. Imagine if you were to continue to employ this tactic to them when they are older.
What if you did this with many other things as they were a teenager or an adult?
What if you told them other lies for a time and then later reveal the truth, and you kept doing this repeatedly all the time?
For example: You can tell them the lie that the Jews were not harmed during WW2, and then later reveal to them that you lied and that in fact that they were harmed. You can keep doing this their whole adult life if you like. But you will find that they will not trust what you say because you tell them lies. This is why lying is not good. Also, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire according to Revelation 21:8. Many will be shocked come Judgment Day. They worshiped fantasy and the world culture and they did not really follow Jesus, and His good ways. They followed their belly and what feels good.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 is a reality now for our day.

2 Timothy 3:1-2
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves,…"

2 Timothy 3:4-5
“…lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:…“


No. This is in context to honoring God on a particular day ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE and not worldly secular holidays or days invented by the traditions of men from churches. Again, Romans 14 talks about “faith.” Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God is SCRIPTURE. There is no faith in the things of God if it is not grounded or rooted in the BIBLE.

“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul doesn’t say anything about faith in that statement or in reference to that statement. And the word “faith” does not always refer to scripture. Paul said that the one who is weak in faith is the one who DOESN’T eat not the one who does eat, meaning the one who is observing the dietary laws according to scripture is the weak one not the one who feels free to eat anything. So the one who observes certain days according to the scripture is also the one who is weak in faith.

“Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Where is the scripture that says we can eat all things? The one who HAS FAITH believes he can eat all things, the one who is weak in faith believes he cannot eat all things. You’re interpreting Paul the opposite of what he actually wrote.

 

[ozso]

Yes. it would be a sin to make others believe something is real that is not actually real. Now, if something is fiction and it is established that it is fiction by both the creators and the audience, that is different. But to create an illusion of something that is not true and then later reveal it was simply not true is a lie. Imagine this tactic being employed repeatedly as one raises their children. They would not trust you to tell the truth or they would think you are crazy for creating false illusions of fake people for a time.

Do you really think that's been the case with people who believed in Santa as a little kid and their parents went along with it? Is there case history of thousands of people with PTSD over it? Did your parents never play along with your imagination when you were little?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well not that it matters but my wife isn’t fat. My wife is 5’3” and 125 lbs. But those answers are sure to be replied with “you didn’t answer the question” which automatically implies that yes she does look fat.

Again, it is better not to answer and evade the truth so as not to lie then to lie in order to make them feel better. God takes lying very seriously and it is a salvation issue (See: Revelation 21:8). This is why I believe narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. Granted, we have our whole life to grow and mature and to learn these things and so I am not looking to condemn or throw down any hammer of Judgment. I am also in a growth process of trying to be more Christ like. We do not know who will grow and see the truth later. I used to love Marvel Comics films, TV series, Star Trek, Alias, James Bond, etcetera. I almost worshiped these things. But God convicted my heart one day of the sin that was being promoted within them. So we have to decide each day of standing up for what is good and right. Lying to your wife and your children to make them feel better is not the way of the LORD or of the fruits of the Spirit. You would only be deceiving yourself if you continue down that current discourse or path.

You just need to recognize that the scriptures do give examples of lies that are not sins. Another example other than Rahab is the midwives Shiphrah and Puah who lied to Pharaoh and God was pleased with them because of their lie.

That is your interpretation that I believe is faulty. I believe that such an interpretation is EXTREMELY risky especially in light of how Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. But hey, if you want to take a gamble of your own soul and those you teach, you are free to do so. I would rather take the more conservative approach because my soul is too important to play games with. I really do want to enter the Kingdom one day. But I know if I took the sin and still be saved interpretation, I know it would keep me out of His Kingdom. I am not willing to do that. I would rather take the narrow path and not the wide gate path that everyone is on.

“Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah; and he said, “When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭1‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Already discussed these issues many times before. You can read articles online that defend either for or against. As I said, I would rather look out in protecting my soul instead of being overconfident about sin. In short, if I am overzealous, I will still be able to enter His Kingdom even I was wrong (as long as I was loving towards the brethren). But if I justified sin, then, it is a sure fire bet I am not going to make it. This is the approach I take because we are living in the last days of a… "sin filled ME and pleasure culture." Today, if pleasure is not involved in one’s worship of God, they cast the idea aside.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul doesn’t say anything about faith in that statement or in reference to that statement. And the word “faith” does not always refer to scripture.

Unless God is talking to you directly like He did with Abraham, then faith is referring to Scripture.
The Bible is how God communicates with us today. To say so otherwise means we can trust 10 different people who claims God is talking to them audibly, even if they receive contradictory messages.

But you have to make your case with the Bible, that our faith today is not exclusively in the Bible alone.

Paul said that the one who is weak in faith is the one who DOESN’T eat not the one who does eat, meaning the one who is observing the dietary laws according to scripture is the weak one not the one who feels free to eat anything.

Right, which is what I was saying before by the use of other words. I mentioned before about how in part this is referring to the dietary laws that we are no longer under. I think Paul’s main point here is that while we are not under the Old Law, and we should convey that truth to all believers, we should not do anything that would make our brother to stumble if they feel convicted to follow certain dietary laws.

So the one who observes certain days according to the scripture is also the one who is weak in faith.

“Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So you are saying that those believers who celebrate certain days (like Christmas) is weak in the faith?

Where is the scripture that says we can eat all things? The one who HAS FAITH believes he can eat all things, the one who is weak in faith believes he cannot eat all things. You’re interpreting Paul the opposite of what he actually wrote.

1 Timothy 4:4-5
"For every creature of God is good,
and nothing to be refused,
if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really think that's been the case with people who believed in Santa as a little kid and their parents went along with it? Is there case history of thousands of people with PTSD over it? Did your parents never play along with your imagination when you were little?

The standard of morality does not change. If you do something once or a little, that means you can do so a lot and the standard of morality should not change for that particular thing. Again, if you were to employ the tactic of creating false fantasy children and continued that narrative as your children grow up to be adults, they will think you either have mental problems or you get a power rush by lying to them. What if you lied to your children about other things like this as they grew up. You can lie, and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. That will mess with their minds. Remember, it took only one sin for the fall of Adam and Eve to happen and not many sins. The moment you justify one sin, it then opens Pandora’s box to be a slave to sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Taking the mark of the beast is a sin. Can one rationalize that one-time sin to feed their family? No. You will lose your soul by doing so.
Yet, I have talked with Christians on this forum who think it is okay to take the Mark to feed their family and God would understand. This is how messed up things are today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, he wouldn't.
But Saint Nicholas - a real person - gave gifts to the poor in secret. Jesus said "do not let your left hand know what your right is doing." and told us not to make a show of giving to the poor.
So the heart of of the Santa Claus story is real - everything else is embellishment.

Again, parents lie about Santa’s existence coming to their house. This is lying.

 

[ozso]

The standard of morality does not change. If you do something once or a little, that means you can do so a lot and the standard of morality should not change for that particular thing. Again, if you were to employ the tactic of creating false fantasy children and continued that narrative as your children grow up to be adults, they will think you either have mental problems or you get a power rush by lying to them. What if you lied to your children about other things like this as they grew up. You can lie, and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. That will mess with their minds. Remember, it took only one sin for the fall of Adam and Eve to happen and not many sins. The moment you justify one sin, it then opens Pandora’s box to be a slave to sin.

You make the oddest most uptight statements of just about any Christian I've ever heard/read.

 

[Strong in Him]

Again, parents lie about Santa’s existence coming to their house. This is lying.

Yet gifts are given to the children, in secret - just like St Nicholas used to do.
One of the parents would be doing the things that St Nick did - giving in secret.

Yes, the whole "flying around the world in a sleigh with reindeer, and climbing down people's chimneys" is fiction - but fiction and make believe aren't lies.

Apart from which, the only similarity between this and the nativity is the giving of gifts. God gave his greatest gift to us when he sent his Son to be born into our world. The Magi and shepherds gave gifts because they were worshipping God. We give gifts to people to show love.

 

[YorkieGal]

Again, parents lie about Santa’s existence coming to their house. This is lying.

My dad had this exact view so we never believed in Santa.

I took the opposite view with my kid and regretted it - my kid was devastated when learning the truth and things were very awkward for awhile!!!

Should have listened to dad on that one...........

 

[Jipsah]

A lie in having fun is still a lie.

Just as me telling the grandkids that I'm going to throw them out the window is a lie. Just as every work of fgiction is a lie. Just as, arguably, saying that according to the OT, making fancy carven furniture is idolatry is a lie. Lotta bandwidth to operate in there.

Your logic is flawed. Surely if you know Scripture, we are to imitate Christ, and the Lord Jesus would never do such a thing as lie to children as a part of having fun.

So He never told a child tall tale. Hmmmm...

If you are living like the world, then you are not living like Christ would live.

"Living like the world"covers a lot of territory, a lot more than most folks claim they don't do pay any attention to. They generally have a fairly limited set of don'ts that they usually keep on hand to to thump others with.

One needs to be born again by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures in order to see what I am talking about.

Or to see that you're talking partisan rubbish.

I am not really hear to convince you

You've succeded.

, but to let others know of the truth.

Limited neo-Judaizing is hardly breaking news.

1 John 2:15-17
”Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”

Romans 14:5-6 is dealing with matters in regards to the faith. The word “faith” appears 4 times in the King James Bible. Skipping back a few chapters we learn the following truth.

Romans 10:17,
”So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

In other words, Romans 10:17 is saying you need to have the Scriptures in order to have the faith. So Romans 14 must be referring to something within the Scriptures and not secular worldly holidays or holy days created by religionists with no Scriptural allowance or warrant.

Meaning, Romans 14 is about what kinds of food you can eat (dietary laws found in the Old Testament), and the celebration of certain holy days as found in Scripture that would align with the New Covenant. Seeing, Christmas is a secular worldly holiday that is not mentioned in the Bible it has zero grounds for being a consideration of merit among the things alluded to in Romans 14. Nowhere do we see the disciples or other believers worshiping Jesus as a baby when He is an adult or after He is risen. To do so would actually be an untruth if they were to do that because Jesus never revealed that He could morph back into baby form.


Side Note:

Oh, and Romans 14 is not an encouragement to throw oneself into the arms all of the ceremonial laws of Moses, either. Paul also says, “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11). In other words, I don’t believe Paul is saying we have a liberty to keep all of the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant in Romans 14. If we seek to be justified by the Law, we have fallen from grace.

A lie in having fun is still a lie. Your logic is flawed. Surely if you know Scripture, we are to imitate Christ, and the Lord Jesus would never do such a thing as lie to children as a part of having fun. Remember, when Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain? If you are living like the world, then you are not living like Christ would live. One needs to be born again by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures in order to see what I am talking about. We need to receive not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit of God to be able to see such things. The spirit of this world will tell you lying is okay if it is done in fun. But I am not really hear to convince you, but to let others know of the truth.

1 John 2:15-17
”Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”

Romans 14:5-6 is dealing with matters in regards to the faith. The word “faith” appears 4 times in the King James Bible. Skipping back a few chapters we learn the following truth.

Romans 10:17,
”So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

In other words, Romans 10:17 is saying you need to have the Scriptures in order to have the faith. So Romans 14 must be referring to something within the Scriptures and not secular worldly holidays or holy days created by religionists with no Scriptural allowance or warrant.

Meaning, Romans 14 is about what kinds of food you can eat (dietary laws found in the Old Testament), and the celebration of certain holy days as found in Scripture that would align with the New Covenant. Seeing, Christmas is a secular worldly holiday that is not mentioned in the Bible it has zero grounds for being a consideration of merit among the things alluded to in Romans 14. Nowhere do we see the disciples or other believers worshiping Jesus as a baby when He is an adult or after He is risen. To do so would actually be an untruth if they were to do that because Jesus never revealed that He could morph back into baby form.


Side Note:

Oh, and Romans 14 is not an encouragement to throw oneself into the arms all of the ceremonial laws of Moses, either. Paul also says, “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11). In other words, I don’t believe Paul is saying we have a liberty to keep all of the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant in Romans 14. If we seek to be justified by the Law, we have fallen from grace.

 

[Strong in Him]

The standard of morality does not change. If you do something once or a little, that means you can do so a lot and the standard of morality should not change for that particular thing. Again, if you were to employ the tactic of creating false fantasy children and continued that narrative as your children grow up to be adults, they will think you either have mental problems or you get a power rush by lying to them.

I don't know of any children who grew up believing that Father Christmas was still real.
I don't know of anyone who became badly traumatised by discovering that:
- Father Christmas was your mum or dad,
- if you cleaned a lamp you would not get a genie appear and grant you 3 wishes,
- if you went to a ball/disco, your carriage/car would not turn into a pumpkin at midnight,
- there are no other worlds in the back of a wardrobe,
- if you eat an apple, you won't go to sleep for 100 years, wake up the same age and marry a prince.

When it comes to Father Christmas, the children I know/have known have either worked it out for themselves by about the age of 6, or had a friend/sibling who has told them the truth.
Children learn to work out fact from fiction, and in fact they need to do so.

What if you lied to your children about other things like this as they grew up.

Like I said, I don't know of any children who still believe in Father Christmas after the age of about 6-7.

You can lie, and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. Lie and then reveal the truth. That will mess with their minds.

Only if they have some kind of problem and cannot distinguish between fact and fiction.

What about parables?
Supposing there wasn't literally a man who went from Jerusalem to Jericho and got attacked by robbers? Supposing there wasn't a man who had 2 sons and one of them asked for his inheritance, (which no one would do as it would have been like saying to your father 'I wish you were dead)? Supposing there never was a man who employed several workers throughout the day and paid them all the same?
Would these things "mess with your mind" or would you, in fact, say "this is a story which could have happened and which Jesus told to illustrate a spiritual truth?

Remember, it took only one sin for the fall of Adam and Eve to happen and not many sins.

Adam sinned because he had heard God's command not to eat a certain fruit, and did it anyway.
That has nothing to do with believing in Father Christmas.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My dad had this exact view so we never believed in Santa.

I took the opposite view with my kid and regretted it - my kid was devastated when learning the truth and things were very awkward for awhile!!!

Should have listened to dad on that one...........

I am glad you learned the truth on this point. But your Dad was merely just following what the Bible is saying here.
Lying is never condoned by God ever. Revelation 21:8 has some strong warnings against liars. It’s not that we cannot seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus. We can. But we cannot justify sin by any means. We have to turn away from sin and fight against it with the intention of overcoming it with God’s help. Truly this is the narrow way that Jesus spoke about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Adam sinned because he had heard God's command not to eat a certain fruit, and did it anyway.
That has nothing to do with believing in Father Christmas.

It sure does. There is no such thing as Santa (spelled Satan if you move the letters around). Parents lie to their children about him being real when he is not real and this is the sin of lying. Parents who may be Christian who do this basically believe that even if it was a sin, they are still saved. However, this was the same lie Eve bought into by the serpent. She was convinced that she could sin or disobey God’s command and not die. So there is nothing new under the sun.

May the Lord’s love shine upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just as me telling the grandkids that I'm going to throw them out the window is a lie. Just as every work of fgiction is a lie. Just as, arguably, saying that according to the OT, making fancy carven furniture is idolatry is a lie. Lotta bandwidth to operate in there.


So He never told a child tall tale. Hmmmm...

"Living like the world"covers a lot of territory, a lot more than most folks claim they don't do pay any attention to. They generally have a fairly limited set of don'ts that they usually keep on hand to to thump others with.

Or to see that you're talking partisan rubbish.

You've succeded.


Limited neo-Judaizing is hardly breaking news.

You need to come out of the world system and its ways in order to see the truth of God’s Word on this matter. Nothing I will say will convince you otherwise. Only the Word of God and the Spirit of God can change your heart and mind If you are open to change. Right now it does not seem like you are open to change at the moment. But God has a way of slowing chiseling away at our heart and mind in order to transform it to His desire in His beautiful timing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You make the oddest most uptight statements of just about any Christian I've ever heard/read.

Because we are living in the last days.
You will not find many preaching the actual truth of God’s Word as it is.
Most churches are content to just make their members happy, and not to rock the boat.

Anyways, much of what I am saying is from the Bible itself.
So if you have a problem with what I am saying, you are taking issue with the Bible.

 

[Strong in Him]

It sure does. There is no such thing as Santa (spelled Satan if you move the letters around). Parents lie to their children about him being real when he is not real and this is the sin of lying. Parents who may be Christian who do this believe that they can sin and still be saved by doing this.

Are you joking?
Christian parents who tell their children about father Christmas - or let them believe in him - cannot be saved? They need to repent of the "sin", which isn't against God, of letting their children be children and believe that make believe is real?
As I said, the story of father Christmas is based on truth anyway. Even if it were 100% fiction, it would not be a sin to allow children to believe it.

Santa Claus became what people called Saint Nicholas, or NiChoLAUS. The man did exist and was a Bishop in the church.
"Santa" is Spanish (or Italian) for saint, so the word most certainly exists. A saint is the complete opposite to Satan.

 

[Strong in Him]

Because we are living in the last days.
You will not find many preaching the actual truth of God’s Word as it is.
Most churches are content to just make their members happy, and not to rock the boat.

Anyways, much of what I am saying is from the Bible itself.
So if you have a problem with what I am saying, you are taking issue with the Bible.

Nonsense.
The Bible doesn't talk about father Christmas, Christmas trees or say that it is wrong to celebrate the miraculous event of the word becoming flesh.

If it would offend you to celebrate, and participate, in these things, then don't. Don't mark Christmas at all; don't use the occasion to send cards with Bible verses on to non Christians. Don't use the opportunity of non Christians attending church services to preach the Gospel or, in a discussion about Christmas, to tell people what it really means and then share your faith.

But don't tell people that they can't, that they have to stop, that they are lying to their children and cannot be saved if they suggest that father Christmas is real.
Because that's not true.

 

[JSRG]

It sure does. There is no such thing as Santa (spelled Satan if you move the letters around).

The etymology of Santa has nothing to do with Satan; it's an English version of the Dutch word Sinterklaas, which itself comes from Saint Nicholas. The fact you can rearrange the letters of Santa to get the word Satan means no more than the fact you can rearrange the letters of God to end up with dog.

Parents lie to their children about him being real when he is not real and this is the sin of lying. Parents who may be Christian who do this basically believe that even if it was a sin, they are still saved. However, this was the same lie Eve bought into by the serpent. She was convinced that she could sin or disobey God’s command and not die. So there is nothing new under the sun.

While I would not go so far as to equate the action of telling kids that Santa Claus is real to be similar to that of the trickery of the Serpent, I do agree that parents should not be telling their children that Santa Claus is real.

 

[ozso]

My dad had this exact view so we never believed in Santa.

I took the opposite view with my kid and regretted it - my kid was devastated when learning the truth and things were very awkward for awhile!!!

Should have listened to dad on that one...........

Maybe you went too far with it. In my upbringing it was just a make believe game. Something I just naturally grew out of like pretending I was Batman, or a spy or a cop.