Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[Bible Highlighter]

Personally I've nver had any inclination to worship a statue of a cow.

An object ofworship, yeah.


Which statue? The gold cow? The Statue of Liberty? The statue of the Hamburglar in McDonald's playground?

What was shown to be what?


So if we're behind the Hamburglar he isn't an idol.

And none that says I can't.


So are pews.

I love "bow down". In the Korean church I attend, we "bow down" to each other as a sign of respect, and if I didn't I'd simply be considered rude and disrespectful. So I "bow down" before the Crucifix, and the Altar, and to the Cross as the procession passes, as paying respect the things of God. Not your culture? Sawright, it is mine.

Cultural chauvinist much? God is an American, hmmm?

OK, if we meet I won't "bow down" to you. But I will my church brethren,out of respect.


Yep, your church is The Real Church, your doctrines are The Real Doctrines, y'all are the Real Christians.
Just like all the other splinter sects. That's why they splintered.

Yeah, I've been told by a few self-important Protestants that they don't need beads to pray. But I suspect that for the most part they don't pray at all. The beads remind me to pray, and keep my prayers orderly. A mnemonic device, we geek boys would call it. And yeah, we also pray without them as well, trust me on that account.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Why should I not ask our departed brethren to pray for me? Oh, I forgot, it's like bowing, your lot forbids it. BTW, do you ask your living brethren to pray for you?

Sorry, but words mean things:

necromancy​

noun​

nec·ro·man·cy ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē

1
: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future



It does help if you know what the word actually means.

So if you want to have statues you can?


That's how you learn to recognize neo-judaizers and making up rules to elevate to being equivalent to Scripture.

There is no point in trying to argue with you if you are knee deep in your own beliefs of your church, and you don’t desire to change to conform to what the Word of God says. I can go back and forth with you just fine, but know that Isaiah says, “If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.“ (Isaiah 8:20). We know that bowing down to statues is idolatry. If it is not, then what in the world is it then? Does your church or others like it even warn against idolatry like the Bible does? My guess is that it doesn’t. Therein lies the problem that should be a wake up call for you, but only you can truly decide if you want that.

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Leave the judging to Jesus. Catholics are a praying bunch, and often have kneelers not just in the Real Presence of Jesus, but at other locations to pray. Catholics are not worshiping the statues, again take care and not make the mistake of taking the place of Jesus in regard to judging.
You yourself cited an image on the Internet, I do not condemn you for worshiping the image because you looked at it on your Internet. Visual reminders of Jesus and those in Heaven give us a great opportunity to pray. For example, in our church we have a painting depicting Jesus and a kneeler. It is not to worship the canvas or the paint on the canvas, we are not "bowing down" to the canvas and paint, the painting is there to bring to mind the great mercy of Jesus and is an opportunity to pray. When the early Christians were freed from Roman persecution in the 4th century, they did not build churches right away. Thought and discussion went into building the churches, and it took a decade or two before the churches were built. It was decided early on to make the churches ornate inside. The practice of having statues and icons as reminders of God and Heaven were implemented long ago, understanding Christians have known the difference between images and graven images for a long, long time. Plucking and misusing a phrase or two out of the full context of the Bible and gaining followers who condemn others is not the way of God, beware of following such men.

Matthew 7

Judging Others​

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. RSVCE

Matthew 7 is dealing with hypocritical judgment and not that you cannot judge. Jesus says in John 7 that we are to judge righteous judgment (See: John 7:24). Note: A person who studies the Bible for any length of time would know this. This is why I would encourage you to ask God to send you the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name to help you understand His Word as you read it and make it a part of your daily life. Accept the truth of His Word in what it says even if it may contradict the teachings of your church.

But again, the Bible does condemn idolatry and we see things like the golden calf incident, and the bowing down to a statue of a king in Daniel 3. So how exactly do you see idolatry condemned by your church that would align with these things we read about in Scripture? This is the challenge I have for you. If you cannot find such a truth, this merely shows that your church has merely redefined idolatry in the Bible.

 

[Jipsah]

The idea is to not possess an idol

If you aren't worshipping it, it ain't an idol.

by my pointing out Exodus 20 it was not about it being a graven image.
Idols can be a statue made out of stone, or molten from metal, or they can be a decorated tree as mentioned in Jeremiah 10.

And in every case it's an object ofworship.

The idea here is not to have or possess the idol and it is not about worshiping it alone.

Give my grandmother a statue of a cow, it's just a stupid statue of a stupid cow. No harm, no foul. If it's a gift it will probably take up permanent residence in the attic (it's rude to throw away a gift).

Just owning the idol is condemned in the Bible.

What's to become of my grandmother!

That’s the point I was making. Both possessing the idol and or worshiping it are condemned.

And you reserve the right tosay what's an idol and isn't. Nah...

Again, Jeremiah 10 says a decorated tree is an idol by the use of other words.

"By other words". <LOL>

It says not to partake of this practice that the heathen nations.



The Bible has a way of changing our mind if we allow it to.

Then again, yuou can just embrace some silly, usually OT based, doctrine of the sort that get rediscovered every few years.They're all similar, and tjhey're all ultimately rubbish.

But it does not seem you desire it to change you. This is a challenge to you to seek out the real truth and not your own version of it.

Go thou and do likewise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you aren't worshipping it, it ain't an idol.

And in every case it's an object ofworship.

Give my grandmother a statue of a cow, it's just a stupid statue of a stupid cow. No harm, no foul. If it's a gift it will probably take up permanent residence in the attic (it's rude to throw away a gift).


What's to become of my grandmother!

And you reserve the right tosay what's an idol and isn't. Nah...

"By other words". <LOL>

Then again, yuou can just embrace some silly, usually OT based, doctrine of the sort that get rediscovered every few years.They're all similar, and tjhey're all ultimately rubbish.


Go thou and do likewise.

Again, the Bible condemns idolatry. Yet, how exactly does your church do that?
This is the big question that you cannot answer.

 

[Jipsah]

There is no point in trying to argue with you if you are knee deep in your own beliefs of your church

And also with you. You believe the Bible, but only after it's passed through the filter of you sect's doctrine, most of which are both novel and unknown tothe ancient Church. The differences between them and those of folks like the 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses are simply matters of degree.

, and you don’t desire to change to conform to what the Word of God says.

I don'tdesire to change to conform to what your the doctrines of your sect claims the Word of God "really means".

I can go back and forth with you just fine, but know that Isaiah says if they do not speak according to His Word, there is no light in them.

On that we agree.

We know that bowing down to statues is idolatry.

Then don't. But maling false accusation is also an egregious sin, isn't it? But you needn't worry about the telephone pole in your own eye, do you?

Does your church or others like it even warn against idolatry like the Bible does?

Like the Bible does,or like you do? There seem to me to be few similarities there.

My guess is that it doesn’t. Therein lies the problem that should be a wake up call for you

I woke up to sects like yours many, many years ago. I don't want some, I already had any.

 

[prodromos]

Uh, I just looked recently on the internet and I found actual pagan witch websites who claim to the use of decorated Yule trees in their dark craft.

I could care less about what witches claim today. Where are your historical sources which show witches using trees in their practices prior to Christians decorating trees.

Jeremiah 10 talks about this tree worship and so obviously this practice does predate the practice of these witches.

Jeremiah talks about carving idols, not decorating trees.
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an axe by the hands of an artisan;
people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

But there is also the druids who did the same thing before Christmas came about.

Again, you give no historical references.

I know.

You think you do

Your worldview thinks Christmas was invented with your church and so you will just reject anything else and see it as false no matter how convincing the evidence to the unbiased observer or investigator.

You have given no evidence, just your biased opinion and misinterpretation of Scripture.

Besides, it is not just about having idol trees on Christmas that Jeremiah 10 forbids one in having.

Jeremiah 10 is about carving idols out of wood, not decorating trees.

a tree from the forest is cut down, and worked with an axe by the hands of an artisan;
people deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.​

Once the artisan has finished working on it, there is nothing resembling a tree anymore. That is when they cover it with silver and gold and have their finished idol. Not a decorated tree.

My OP points out other unbiblical elements that clearly are a huge problem that a person has to bury their head in the sand on. I was just talking to a Christian in this thread about their rationalization of promoting the lie of a fake birthday date for Jesus. Again, this would be a promotion of a lie. That alone should be a sufficient reason to not celebrate Christmas. But people cannot see the forest from the trees on this topic because of their love for a holiday.

We celebrate every aspect of the life of Christ throughout the year, His conception, His birth, His presentation at the Temple, His baptism, His miracle at the wedding in Cana, His healing of the man born blind, etc. through to His trial, His crucifixion and burial, to His glorious resurrection and ascension. Every day of the calendar year has been sanctified by the Church through the remembrance of the life of Christ and His glorious Saints. You've totally missed the point of why the Church has established these feast days.

 

[Jipsah]

A simple internet search brings up lots of results. So I do not need to create an in-depth write-up on it with endnote citations.

In other words, you can't support it. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Valletta]

Matthew 7 is dealing with hypocritical judgment and not that you cannot judge. Jesus says in John 7 that we are to judge righteous judgment (See: John 7:24). Note: A person who studies the Bible for any length of time would know this. This is why I would encourage you to ask God to send you the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name to help you understand His Word as you read it and make it a part of your daily life. Accept the truth of His Word in what it says even if it may contradict the teachings of your church.

But again, the Bible does condemn idolatry and we see things like the golden calf incident, and the bowing down to a statue of a king in Daniel 3. So how exactly do you see idolatry condemned by your church that would align with these things we read about in Scripture? This is the challenge I have for you. If you cannot find such a truth, this merely shows that your church has merely redefined idolatry in the Bible.

You are in disagreement with vast numbers of people who have great understanding of the Bible through intense study and prayer. It is a Catholic way to ask the Holy Spirit for discernment before reading the Bible. Saying a prayer afterwards that what you have read will be fruitful in your life is also a good idea. Understand that your personal interpretation of the Word of God is fallible. Because you see an image of a person kneeling in prayer by a symbol or object, whether a statue or painting or icon or cross drawn on a wall, for that matter anything, does not mean they are "bowing down" to worship the object. Your mistake is in judging a photograph on the Internet without asking the people in the photo what is happening or investigating what is happening. In other words, a rash judgment. You cannot make a righteous judgment based on looking at a photo and malicious gossip. Understand that the seraphim are images that were looked at no matter from the front or back or side. Your conjecture that since the seraphim were looking inward that make it OK is taking a position and twisting the facts to try and support your chosen position using an extra-Biblical conclusion. Those who understand the Bible accept that is was pleasing to God to view the seraphim no matter which direction the seraphim were looking, and that there is a huge difference between viewing images that are pleasing to God and sinning by worshiping images not pleasing to God--against His Commandment.

 

[Jipsah]

The Lord's supper is a celebration until He comes.

Our Lord Himself said the bread and wine are His Body and Blood, but you don't believe that do you?

We are also to LIVE by Every Word of God.

Try this:
1 Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Believe it, as written, or not??

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Okay. I am just one person here. I said what I needed with Scripture. I am not going to endlessly reply to a crowd of folks here endlessly who do not want to see the Scripture verses I am sharing.

Plus, I have a Christian write-up to get back to for those who have ears to hear.

Be well.

May God’s love shine upon you all.

 

[prodromos]

Okay. I am just one person here. I said what I needed with Scripture. I am not going to endlessly reply to a crowd of folks here endlessly who do not want to see the Scripture verses I am sharing.

Ah, the hubris.

 

[Der Alte]

To all:
Okay. I am just one person here. I said what I needed with Scripture. I am not going to endlessly reply to a crowd of folks here endlessly who do not want to see the Scripture verses I am sharing.
Plus, I have a Christian write-up to get back to for those who have ears to hear.
Be well.
May God’s love shine upon you all.

Oh we accept the scripture you or anyone else shares but we reserve the right to correct any out-of-the-ordinary twist which anyone places on them. For example, you refuse to acknowledge that God, Himself, said what constitutes an idol in Ex 20 and claim that somehow a centuries later decoration which is NEVER worshipped is an idol although it is not graven and it is not bowed down to or served as stated in Ex 20. Jeremiah does NOT invalidate Ex 20.

Jeremiah 10:3-5
(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.​

You quote vs. 5 as if it alone is one of the 10 commandments and ignore the following vss. Do you know of anyone who has ever had a Christmas tree expected it to speak and move? Pagan deities were said to speak and move etc. vs. 4. Strike 1.
Do you know of anyone who has ever had a Christmas tree who were afraid of it? Pagans were afraid of their deities. vs. 5 Strike 2.
Do you know of anyone who had a Christmas tree expected it do good or evil to them? Pagans thought their deities could do good and evil. vs. 5. Strike 3.
Just in case you forgot God, Himself said what constituted an idol.

Exodus 20:3-5
(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

A Christmas tree is NOT graven. A Christmas tree is NOT the "likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." People who have Christmas trees do NOT bow down themselves to them, nor serve them.
Jeremiah 10 does NOT invalidate Exodus 20.

 

[Strong in Him]

Actually, the Bible makes my case for me all on its own. I am only pointing out to you what it says.

No, it doesn't; you're pointing out what you think it says.

While an idol can be other things, the traditional form of an idol is a statue of a false god.

People who transfer their worship onto something else, sometimes make an image of it.
Sometimes an image, object or possession is, itself, an idol. They may not think they are worshipping a god at all - but that's what it amounts to.

Not at all. The Bible can only be an idol if somebody bows down to it if they believed it was the very being or essence of God Himself.

Bowing down to something a one way in which worship is expressed; it's not the only way.
A person can worship a Bible if;
- the style of language is more important than if anyone understands it
- they want a Bible with a nice, decorative cover and gold leaf pages, but don't intend to read it or live by it.
- they insist that their Bible, alone is true or superior; that Christians who use other Bibles are lacking in some way because they use substandard versions.
- that there can never be a Bible that is better than their preferred translation.

I am glad you said you would be open to change. That’s nice to hear. But I am not talking about you worshiping a plastic tree. I never said you did that. My point is in just possessing the tree that is decorated.

I know.
But it's wrong and it's based on a wrong understanding of Jeremiah 10.

According to God’s Word (Jeremiah 10), He indirectly is saying that a decorated tree is an idol and we are not to follow the heathen practice of making this (Regardless of whether or not we bow down or worship it - which I know that you and most people do not do). But most people do have a Christmas tree and I believe this is an idol by the wording in Jeremiah 10. All I can do is again encourage you to stay open about it and reread the chapter several times for a few years in prayer. That’s all I am asking. Then let God do His work.

According to God’s Word (Jeremiah 10), He indirectly is saying that a decorated tree is an idol

No, he's not.
He is indirectly saying? Why doesn't he come out and say it in plain language?
Where is the word 'Christmas' in Jer 10?
Where does he say that if anyone at any time in the future places any kind of decoration on a tree, that is the same as worshipping an idol?

Trees are not idols.
Noah doubtless cut down many trees to build the ark. He nailed thee pieces of wood together and covered them with pitch - was he building an idol?
The tabernacle and temple were made from wood - or contained items that were made from wood. Trees would have been cut down, and they were covered with gold. Were Moses and Solomon building idols?
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob used to build altars to the Lord wherever, and whenever, he had blessed them. The altars were probably made from stone - did the stones then become idols?
The Lord told Moses to make a bronze serpent which the people needed to look at to be healed. Did the serpent become an idol? Did people start worshipping bronze?

But most people do have a Christmas tree and I believe this is an idol by the wording in Jeremiah 10.

Well I'm sorry, but your reading, and understanding, is wrong.
Just one of the perils of not consulting commentaries or other resources to help you understand. The Lord even says "do not lean on your own understanding", Proverbs 3:5.

All I can do is again encourage you to stay open about it

I'm not going to stay open about this particular matter, because, quite simply, you are wrong.
My Christmas tree is not an idol.
None of the Christmas trees that I've seen, brought or helped to decorate during my 60+ years on this earth, have been idols.
None have ever led me astray, caused me to worship, or to reject, God.
I don't believe any of them ever will.

Jeremiah 10:3-4 says;

For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Even when we were children and had real trees - until the cat knocked them over and they made too much mess - no craftsman EVER shaped it with a chisel. It got plonked in a bucket and there it stayed. Nor was it ever fastened with nails - otherwise the cat would not have knocked it over.
"Shapes with a chisel" refers to someone carving a figure/statue out of the wood.
No one I know has ever paid a fortune for a Christmas tree and ever cut it up to make it into something else.

Sorry, but this sounds as though you, or someone else, has read that verse and thought "that sounds like what we do to a Christmas tree, decorate it - therefore the Lord must be saying that Christmas trees are idols, and are wrong."
He's not.
Even you used the word "indirectly."

 

[The Liturgist]

We will not all live forever. So it will not last forever.
So yes. It will cease one day.
Then you will have to explain yourself to the Lord Jesus why did not obey His Word and you followed what some church group says instead. I know. You probably don’t think that is going to happen, but it will unless you change, my friend.
I have a more sure Word of prophecy. You don’t.



I disagree strongly for many reasons but it is not me who can ultimately convince you.
Only the Lord can change your mind by the Word if you are open to it.
Most simply don’t want the truth to change.
They have invented their own truth.



It matters not what some church or group does. What matters is…… "What saith the Scriptures?“
If this is not the guide for a person’s life in all aspects, then they should not even regard the Bible at all.
They must choose which master they really want to serve.

Revelation 3:15
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."

I have faith that our God, who is love, will not fault me for loving Him so much that I celebrate the day He became incarnate as a human being. Especially in light of the Pauline Epistles which make it clear that Gentiles are not subject to the Torah. There is nothing in Scripture which prohibits the celebration of the Nativity or the Resurrection, and the idea that someone could be damned for it is incompatible with what Jesus Christ Himself says about God, that He is Love.

A Christocentric faith is one which focuses on celebrating every aspect of the life of Christ, our Incarnate God.

You do believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate, I hope?

+

I would also add that the Orthodox are not “some church group” but are rather the original ancient church founded by the Apostles, but furthermore all traditional churches agree with us on this point, concerning the celebration of the Feast of the Nativity, and it is only a handful of churches that represent a tiny minority of Christendom that reject the celebration of the Nativity of our Lord. For example, the aforementioned Covenanting Presbyterians. But perhaps your theology differs from theirs as well.

+

Lastly, I would note that according to St. Silouan the Athonite, one of the great Christians of the early 20th century, there are two thoughts that every Christian must flee from: one being that we have attained holiness, and the other being that we are beyond hope of salvation. This is because the former leads to pride and spiritual delusion, and the latter to despair which can lead to one losing one’s faith or engaging in self-destructive behavior or other severe issues.

It is my view that Christians should, except in the most extraordinary conditions, never threaten individual Nicene Christians from other churches than their own with the prospect of damnation, because this is not conducive to salvation but rather suggests a “holier-than-thou” status which is alienating.

 

[The Liturgist]

If you aren't worshipping it, it ain't an idol.

And in every case it's an object ofworship.

Give my grandmother a statue of a cow, it's just a stupid statue of a stupid cow. No harm, no foul. If it's a gift it will probably take up permanent residence in the attic (it's rude to throw away a gift).


What's to become of my grandmother!

And you reserve the right tosay what's an idol and isn't. Nah...

"By other words". <LOL>

Then again, yuou can just embrace some silly, usually OT based, doctrine of the sort that get rediscovered every few years.They're all similar, and tjhey're all ultimately rubbish.


Go thou and do likewise.

Indeed so, we are of one accord. As is usually the case with Anglicans and Orthodox.

By the way, there is an Anglican bishop whose baptismal name is David, who is quite elderly, whose wife is dying. Please pray for him and for his wife Elizabeth.

 

[The Liturgist]

- they insist that their Bible, alone is true or superior; that Christians who use other Bibles are lacking in some way because they use substandard versions.

I think you’re taking that a bit too far by including the word Superior. For example, I prefer Bibles with the Septuagint Old Testament as I regard it as mostly superior to the Masoretic Old Testament, with some exceptions (for example, Psalm 12 vs. 1). And I regard the Byzantine text type as being superior to the Alexandrian text type, also known as the “Minority text.” However, I do on many occasions read and enjoy versions which use that, and also like many Orthodox Christians, I love the King James Version New Testament, and will frequently look to use that with a traditional language translation of the Septuagint, such as that of Sir Lancelot Brenton. For that matter, the Orthodox Study Bible uses an original translation of the Septuagint and the NKJV, which is quite nice.

I also admire the NIV because of its elegant phrasing, although I feel at times it has a theological bias in the direction of liberal low-church Protestantism; it feels like it was written with the PCUSA or the UMC or the American Baptist Convention in mind. But I still enjoy its elegance, even though I lament the fact that it omits all of the “deuterocanonical” books.

But apparently, according to you, the fact that I regard some Bibles as superior to others, if I am reading your post correctly, and in particular, the fact that I regard the Septuagint Old Testament and the Byzantine text type of the Greek New Testament as being the best versions of these, even though I also read and enjoy others*, I am apparently guilty of idolatry, simply because I regard the Byzantine text type and the Septuagint Old Testament as generally superior. For that matter I regard the Syriac Peshitta as particularly brilliant, and more interesting than the Vulgate, but the Vulgate is very interesting, although not as elegant as the Vetus Latina.*

To me this kind of arbitrary definition of idolatry, which casts such as a broad net as to probably apply to most Christians with any substantial interest in theology, since most of us have versions of Scripture we regard as superior, calls to mind what our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ warned us about pointing out the splinter in someone else’s eye whilst ignoring the log stuck in our own eye.


*I have a particular interest in the obscure Western text type, which as far as I am aware was only used in the Vetus Latina, the original translation of the Bible into Latin by Bishop Victor of Rome in the second century, because the average middle and lower class Roman citizen could not understand, let alone read, Koine Greek, so Pope St. Victor had the liturgy and the Bible translated into Classical Latin, and then about 200 years later St. Jerome was asked by Pope St. Damasus to translate it again, which he did using original Hebrew texts as his source for the Old Testament, translating it into “Vulgar Latin”, so that people in the fourth century could understand it with greater ease, but parts of the Vetus Latina remain in use in Protestant, Catholic and Western Rite Orthodox liturgies, for example, “Gloria in excelsis Deo”, which the Vulgate renders less elegantly as “Gloria in altissimus deo,” and also aside from the New Testament of the Vetus Latina, the four Gospels that were translated into Syriac in the Third Century known as the Vetus Syra are apparently of the Western Text Type as well.

So only two editions of the Bible ever used it, although as far as we know it may have been more heavily used than the Alexandrian text type, since we actually have no idea how and where the Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Alexandricus were actually used, only that nearly everything else in antiquity seems to be of the Byzantine Text Type. This to me is truly fascinating and I want to learn more about this textual variant. For that matter, I do not regard the Alexandrian text type as disastrously flawed, but I prefer the Byzantine as it is more complete. But clearly it was at least of value to Eastern Orthodox scholars, since the Codex Sinaiticus was famously stolen from the library of St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai in the 19th century by a European adventurer who wound up selling about half of it to the British and the other half to the Russians, and I think the French got a bit as well. And recently a few pages of it were given back to the monastery. That said given how the monastery is constantly at risk of being destroyed by Islamist terrorists in Sinai (although the local Bedouin tribes protect it for the monks provide them with free medical care and other Christ-like hospitalities), perhaps the monks wanted it that way - although I doubt it, since the most valuable objects in their collection, the holy icons of The Ladder of Divine Ascent and Christ Pantocrator, the latter dating from the Fifth Century and being one of the oldest surviving icons, and the priceless holy relics, are still there.

I have no doubt that all of this beauty, and also the actual bush that the Holy Spirit caused to appear to be burning, without damaging it, for the benefit of Moses, which is in its courtyard, would be dismissed as idolatry. Indeed the poor monks, some people might accuse them of shrub-worship!

Note that I include this footnote mainly for the intellectual amusement of my friends @Der Alte @Jipsah @prodromos and @Valletta .

 

[Strong in Him]

I think you’re taking that a bit too far by including the word Superior.

Possibly.
I was thinking only of the view - previously expressed on these forums - that the KJV is the only true word of God and other translations are corrupt.
That statement seems, to me, to express superiority.

 

[The Liturgist]

Possibly.
I was thinking only of the view - previously expressed on these forums - that the KJV is the only true word of God and other translations are corrupt.
That statement seems, to me, to express superiority.

Well yes, but to an exclusive extent. Fortunately, promotion of the KJV only idea was prohibited on the forum shortly after I joined, which is good, because that was seriously annoying.

What I am saying is that rather, idolatry could be reasonably asserted when someone insists their preferred version of the Bible is the only true, accurate or reliable version. Otherwise, you are casting so broad a net that you will catch everyone in it, since everyone has preferences on scriptural versions, and many people believe some versions are superior to others, without, however, believing that all other versions are invalid and somehow evil. For example, I prefer the Septuagint Old Testament to the translation St. Jerome did for the Vulgate - to a certain extent, but I still like the Vulgate, I think the Challoner Douai-Rheims is one of the nicer historic English translations and has the advantage of being in the public domain, and I regard St. Jerome as a saint worthy of veneration. For that matter, I think the Vetus Latina has more elegant phrasing than the Vulgate owing to the adherence to the stylistic beauty of classical Latin (and this is doubtless why bits of it remain in liturgical use even to this day), but I think the Vulgate is more accurate. I don’t think this kind of reasoned non-exclusive preference is what you would want to define as idolatry, because the only way to avoid that would be to say that everyone must view all Bible translations as being equally good, and i am not prepared to do that, especially not with intentionally defective translations like the New World Translation published by the J/Ws and some of the Bibles published by certain far-left movements, for example, feminist editions which radically alter the text to suit their ideology.

Now of course bias might be argued to exist in every translation of Scripture and also in every distinct manuscript tradition, which is probably why there are different manuscript traditions to begin with, but so long as this is limited to the selection of legitimate readings which are supported by the text, as opposed to modifying the text by adding, removing or changing the contents thereof, I regard it as acceptable, even to the extent of occasionally inserting glosses to clarify points (for instance, the Comma Johanneum, which is probably not authentic but which I feel deserves to be there, because it exposes a Trinitarian reference where some people might otherwise have failed to notice it). However, the fact that some translations and critical editions omit it or put it in the margins is also completely acceptable to me since it demonstrates a pursuit of truth, which is why I don’t condemn outright the translations from the Alexandrian minority text even though I think the Byzantine text type deserves to be the most widely used, on the basis that historically it was the most widely used, and the content it has that is missing from the Alexandrian text, it is somewhat of a judgement call as to say whether or not that deserves to be there and is driven to a certain extent by the philosophical perspective predominant in the fields of textual criticism and higher criticism in the late 19th and early 20th century, and also we have no idea what these Bibles are in terms of who historically used them, unlike with the Western Text Type where we know exactly who used it and have a reasonable estimate as to how long they were in use, or the Byzantine Text Type where it has been the predominant version for a very long time and the two great fourth century translations, the Peshitta and the Vulgate, closely follow it; however, this being said, I still enjoy a number of translations based on the the Alexandrian text type, for example, I love the stylistic elegance of the NIV in its second edition, and to a lesser extent, in its third edition.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But setting aside a day of when He is not born is a lie. But that is the way of the fantasy cultures of our day. Just invent whatever truth you like. So we should start to declare your birthday on a day that you were not born and promote that lie, right? What if you did that with other people? How do you think God feels?

God knows that no one can possibly know what day Jesus was born on because He did not reveal that information. It’s not a lie if it’s common knowledge that Christmas Day isn’t Jesus’ actual birthday but instead a day we choose to set aside to honor Him. In order for it to actually be a lie we would have to be saying that Jesus was in fact born on Christmas Day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But setting aside a day of when He is not born is a lie. But that is the way of the fantasy cultures of our day. Just invent whatever truth you like. So we should start to declare your birthday on a day that you were not born and promote that lie, right? What if you did that with other people? How do you think God feels? Also, where does this kind of changing of the truth end? Once you change the truth into a lie, you can start to do that with other things. Remember, God always tells the truth. Satan is the father of lies. Don’t buy into thinking you can tell lies and be okay with God. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.



It’s the celebration of a fictional story and sometimes the parents lie to their children about how Santa is real when he is not.
Also, some Catholics claim that Santa Clause is really St. Nicholas of Bari (or Myra), a fourth-century Catholic bishop in Turkey. It makes sense because Catholics are known for calling highly favored believers ïn their chosen history as “saint os-and-so.”
Also, it is kind of odd that if you move the letter “n” in Santa, you get Satan, and he dresses in red (Which is the popular artistic depictions of the devil). Again, I should not have to tell you that this junk is not of God. It is kind of basic if you are a Christian who truly seeks to follow the Lord and His will and not your own will. In other words, if you have any remote understanding of the teachings of Jesus, He was not into the whole Joel Olsteen idea of having your best life now but He was into self denial and picking up your cross, etcetera. We live in a ME centered society and I am not surprised most here do not get it because in their eyes, it is about ME, ME, and ME and my fun, and not really about Jesus. Christmas is really about you and being accepted by either your family or the world. Don’t make waves now because you will look like a radical for Jesus. We cannot have that, right? But hey. You can knock yourself out in living a fantasy life if you like. I prefer to follow Jesus instead. He is more worth it than the short pleasures of this life that are fleeting and hollow.

Yes parents tell their kids Santa clause is real just like we usually say the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy are real, it’s a game that’s fun for kids. It’s not intended to be malicious or deceitful it’s intended to bring joy and happiness. The intent is good not evil. Would you say that Rahab should’ve told the truth to the Canaanite soldiers about the whereabouts of the Israel spies? I’m sure you know that she was counted as being righteous by God for telling that lie. So apparently all lies are not evil in nature.

The word Santa is a title not his name and it means Saint in Spanish, quite the opposite of satan. And if you choose not to honor Christ’s birthday ever that’s certainly your prerogative but according to Romans 14:5-6 you shouldn’t judge others for doing so.

“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬