Why I jumped ship to the left

[Uncle Siggy]

If we let corporate America continue to import labor to side step higher salaries for Americans, we will have a lot of young people out of work.

And they'll just vote for someone to give them "free stuff"...

(Which by the way isn't free for those of you who think it is)...

 

[Albion]

I agree, it is mine. Though I do believe in grace for others... Something the "deport all the illegals and their illegal brats too" advocates haven't displayed, at least from my vantage point.

Surely, there is some limit to what you're calling "grace for others."

If you witnessed someone taking your neighbor's car, am I to understand that you would not call the police, or at least want that person to be apprehended, but instead would think "That's good. The guy probably needs one," as he drove away?

 

[BrianJK]

Surely, there is some limit to what you're calling "grace for others."

If you witnessed someone taking your neighbor's car, am I to understand that you would not call the police, or at least want that person to be apprehended, but instead would think "That's good. The guy probably needs one," as he drove away?

Am I to understand you believe in no grace? If you see someone going 1mph over the speed limit, do you call and report them? Are you livid that the authorities let these criminals go unpunished?

 

[Albion]

Am I to understand you believe in no grace?

No. I questioned whether you were applying it correctly when talking about illegal immigrants.

If you see someone going 1mph over the speed limit, do you call and report them? Are you livid that the authorities let these criminals go unpunished?

I'd be satisfied if you replied to the question I asked you before we deal with another one.

 

[BrianJK]

No. I questioned whether you were applying it correctly when talking about illegal immigrants.


I'd be satisfied if you replied to the question I asked you before we deal with another one.

I answered the extreme you posted by proposing another extreme.

Yes, I would report a theft. No I would not report someone going 1mph over the speed limit. So there are some things I would report and expect to be enforced and others I would not. Immigration violations fall into the latter category.

 

[Albion]

I answered the extreme you posted by proposing another extreme.

That's not an answer. It's a response, but not an answer.

Yes, I would report a theft.

Why is that? The thief probably wanted a car, don't you think? So are you opposed to him having your neighbor's car? That's exactly what a flood of illegal immigrants are doing to the people who worked and paid for all the "freebies" that the immigrants are helping themselves to.

Now...to be fair, you want to know if anyone would turn in someone going 1 MPH over the speed limit. The answer probably is "no," but no one much cared when the illegal immigrants who sneaked into the country were only a few thousand.

When it becomes many millions with the prospect of it going to many more on top of these, the situation changes--as anyone taking an objective look at the matter can appreciate.

If we were to really and truly put ourselves into the examples we've used here, what you're saying is that it's OK with you if a thief takes a few minor things but not a lot of them or very expensive things....and THAT is exactly what I wanted to bring to your attention with my example. That's because this is the only accurate parallel to be drawn to the problem the country faces as a result of the illegal immigration we're now experiencing.

 

[BrianJK]

That's not an answer. It's a response, but not an answer.

I'm a professional linguist, so this made me smile!

Why is that? The thief probably wanted a car, don't you think? So are you opposed to him having your neighbor's car? That's exactly what a flood of illegal immigrants are doing to the people who worked and paid for all the "freebies" that the immigrants are helping themselves to.

Many immigrants want to work for a living and not be killed just for being born elsewhere. Children who were brought here at the age of 2 and have never known anything else just don't want the only life they've ever known ripped from them based on some merciless technicality. If by "freebie" you mean the same chance to work for a better life which people have sought for centuries, I don't get how that's the same as stealing a car...

Now...to be fair, you want to know if anyone would turn in someone going 1 MPH over the speed limit. The answer probably is "no," but no one much cared when the illegal immigrants who sneaked into the country were only a few thousand.

When it becomes many millions with the prospect of it going to many more on top of these, the situation changes--as anyone taking an objective look at the matter can appreciate.

I don't have exact figures, but I don't think it's unreasonable to estimate that millions each day are going at least 1mph over the limit. So if it's numbers, residency and working without a visa probably (again, I don't have exact figures, but I honestly don't think this is a stretch) isn't the illegal act committed by the most people within our borders.

 

[Albion]

Many immigrants want to work for a living and not be killed just for being born elsewhere.

If you want to discuss this difficult matter seriously, please do. This ^ kind of deliberate side-stepping of the issue doesn't accomplish anything IMHO.

I don't have exact figures, but I don't think it's unreasonable to estimate that millions each day are going at least 1mph over the limit.

Millions every day are going 50 miles over the speed limit--to keep it to your chosen example. That should concern you. If it does not, we are simply of different mind about the whole matter of grace, theft, and justice.

 

[BrianJK]

If you want to discuss this difficult matter seriously, please do. This ^ kind of deliberate side-stepping of the issue doesn't accomplish anything IMHO.

No sidestep at all. People are fleeing places controlled by cartels and other situations where families are forced to decide between crossing the border quickly (you know, the way generations were able to do it) and the very real possibility of dying during the very long waiting period, assuming they were approved at all. If this is an aspect you don't wish to discuss, that's ok, but it's a very important one.

Millions every day are going 50 miles over the speed limit--to keep it to your chosen example. That should concern you. If it does not, we are simply of different mind about the whole matter of grace, theft, and justice.

I don't think illegal immigrants pose nearly the same threat as people driving 115 in a 65 do, if there's even a threat at all. I chose 1mph because I don't feel threatened by these people the way you obviously do. Maybe we are of a different mind on the whole matter of the severity of this particular violation than about the abstract concepts of grace and justice.

 

[Albion]

No sidestep at all. People are fleeing places controlled by cartels and other situations where families are forced to decide between crossing the border quickly

Some are. The millions who are in a different situation shouldn't be totally ignored in your answers.

I don't think illegal immigrants pose nearly the same threat as people driving 115 in a 65 do, if there's even a threat at all.

I don't think rape poses nearly as big a thread as nuclear war. Does that mean that we should look the other way when a rape occurs and pretend that it's not important? That's what your logic would dictate.

You're still side-stepping the issue here.

 

[BrianJK]

Some are. The millions who are in a different situation shouldn't be totally ignored in your answers.

Insomuch as the hardfast deportation-supporting Republican ignores those in deadly situations, and children, and others like that, I think there needs to be a certain amount of focus on them.

I don't think rape poses nearly as big a thread as nuclear war. Does that mean that we should look the other way when a rape occurs and pretend that it's not important? That's what your logic would dictate.

You're still side-stepping the issue here.

Your conclusions don't line up with my logic at all. You're the one sidestepping the issue, it seems. If not, please, enlighten me as to what exactly you believe the issue is and how I am sidestepping your idea of the issue.

Then, I'll likely share how my idea of what the issue is differs from yours and show how my analogies aren't sidestepping that idea at all, even if they sidestep your idea.

I'm confident that it is our difference on the definition of the issue rather than any real sidestepping.

While you're at it, show me how believing that illegal immigration is a violation more in line with slight speeding than with theft obligates me to look the other way when rape occurs. That's a heck of a leap.

 

[dogs4thewin]

What does that have to do with the former illegality of rescuing slavery victims?

The fact that just because slavery is illegal does not change the fact that it is a larger issue today than ever.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Those unskilled jobs are filled by immigrants, even if they might have broken a law. There are plenty of working Americans who have broken a law. I have sped in my car. When I was younger, I downloaded music without paying for it. I still have a job!

Yes, but if you break a law as it relates to coming here then you take jobs away from other people. We have a set amount of people we legally allow in each year follow the law or expect to risk getting deported.

 

[BrianJK]

Yes, but if you break a law as it relates to coming here then you take jobs away from other people. We have a set amount of people we legally allow in each year follow the law or expect to risk getting deported.

Or have asinine laws overthrown or simply ignored like numerous others. How many sodomy laws are actively enforced? There are probably reasons for that.

 

[smaneck]

By the way, anyone who wants one of those jobs immigrants are supposedly taking away from us can apply here:

http://www.ufw.org/toj_play/TOJNEW_12_JAL.html

 

[redleghunter]

By the way, anyone who wants one of those jobs immigrants are supposedly taking away from us can apply here:

http://www.ufw.org/toj_play/TOJNEW_12_JAL.html

Where are the NASA jobs?

 

[smaneck]

Where are the NASA jobs?

I don't think illegal immigrants get those.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Or have asinine laws overthrown or simply ignored like numerous others. How many sodomy laws are actively enforced? There are probably reasons for that.

Actually, the sodomy laws have been found unlawful to begin with.

 

[BrianJK]

Actually, the sodomy laws have been found unlawful to begin with.

They're still in the books in some places.

 

[dogs4thewin]

They're still in the books in some places.

Just because the law is on the books does not mean the law is enforced or even legal to enforce.