Why I gave up on Christianity

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Int he end I stopped going to church & bible study, because i just couldnt bring myself to believe any more. I tried to stay in touch with the Christian friends, but after i stopped going to church & attending bible study, they seemed to have no more interest in being my friend.

May I suggest that you start having conversations with our Father in the name of Jesus. It is nice to hang out with Christian friends, but what you need is the pure milk of the Word of God. Start reading the New Testament. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There are promises in the scriptures that lets you know that you are loved by the Most High God. You can ask Him anything.
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - King James Version
At this link, you can read and listen. And if you are truly seeking Him, He will find you.

 

[natasreficul]

It concerns me that in the struggle to come up with a user name for a Christian forum that you had to settle for satanic antichristian mockery. It says a lot about where your heart is. If you truly were a "seeker" I would assume that it wouldn't be that difficult to come up with a less offensive name. Make sure you read the forum rules, especially the ones regarding trolling. I am only telling you this because your name screams "I am a troll!" If you have genuine questions that you want answered, this is the place. If you have simply given up on Christianity and are now trying to "show us the light of reason" you may need to update your profile to "atheist" and stay in the apologetics section.

I have had many discussion and debates with "seekers". I am not going to waste time trying to shoot a moving and invisible target by blindly shotgun blasting all sorts of reasons you should change your mind. So I will simply ask you what would "evidence" for God look like and what "evidence" would convince you that Christianity is true?

It wsnt my intention to 'offend' anybody by the choice of my username. I didnt think most people would notice, & my understanding of Satan in a biblical sense, comes from a purely biblical source, which is the Old Testament, & how it is interpreted by the Jewish religion.

The sort of evidence I would require is evidence that is logical, & stands up to scrutiny. If somebody was considering a different religion to Christianity, such as the Muslim religion, would you expect them to believe without applying logic & scrutiny to what is written in the Q'uran? I find it offensive if somebody wants you to apply scrutiny to other religions but then expects you to accept their own religion based on faith, & then accuses you of 'negativity or being influenced by Satan if you question any parts of it.

Also, if I decided to practise the Muslim religion because I decided there was merit in most of it, should I practise EVERYTHING in the religion, just because of what it says in the Q'uaran, including the part that says to kill infidels if they won't convert? Or should I apply my own logic, & decide that there are parts of the religion that I really don't want to practise & believe because they don't fit my own values as a thinking human being. The Muslims who take the 1st path are the ones who probably end up as terrorists, or joining or sympathising with ISIS & AlQuada, & the other 98% take the 2nd path, & apply some semblance of logic to what is written, & decide to reject those parts that appear illogical.

Just as there are parts of the Quran I could not accept, because I would find them either illogical or against my own values, there are some parts of the Christian religion I cannot accept. I often find that those who claim to be the most pious in any religion, & go around telling others that they are not Christian enough, or not Jewish enough, or not Islamic enough because they reject some aspects of the faith, are usually the ones who are involved in wrongdoing according to their own religious belief.

Also, the Christian religion has as central to its belief the Old Testament. The Jewish religion also has the Old Testament as central to its belief. Both religions claim it is the word of God, yet both religions will also interpret many or most parts of the O.T. entirely differently. Who am I supposed to believe? I can believe the Old Testament according to Jewish belief, & many Christians will tell me that my belief is wrong! If I interpret it according to the Christian belief, the Jews will tell me my interpretation is wrong! I may as well just interpret according to my own belief, because my interpretation is likely to be just as valid as anybody else's interpretation.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It wasn't my intention to 'offend' anybody by the choice of my username.

Being offensive is not an issue. It is the fact that you couldn't think of any username other than Lucifersatan backwards. It tells me where your mind is focused. It gives people the impression that you really don't care about understanding the Christian worldview and that you would rather come here for the entertainment value. Would you expect people to take me seriously if my username was "Mr. Trolly McTrollface?" Eventually they might, but it would have to take a considerable amount of effort on my part to convince them I was serious and not merely a troll. Unless, of course, your name really was Mr. McTrollface. In that case, I would just feel sorry for you.

The sort of evidence I would require is evidence that is logical, & stands up to scrutiny.

Great! So starting with baby steps. First, if I provided logical evidence for the existence of God, would you consider it or have you already made up your mind?

Edit: The reason why I asked this question is because the topic of your thread is "Why I gave up on Christianity." The fact that you are currently on a "Christian" forum suggest that either you really have not "given up" or you are solely here for other reasons such as entertainment or proselytizing atheism.

 

[natasreficul]

Being offensive is not an issue. It is the fact that you couldn't think of any username other than Lucifersatan backwards. It tells me where your mind is focused. It gives people the impression that you really don't care about understanding the Christian worldview and that you would rather come here for the entertainment value. Would you expect people to take me seriously if my username was "Mr. Trolly McTrollface?" Eventually they might, but it would have to take a considerable amount of effort on my part to convince them I was serious and not merely a troll. Unless, of course, your name really was Mr. McTrollface. In that case, I would just feel sorry for you.


Great! So starting with baby steps. First, if I provided logical evidence for the existence of God, would you consider it or have you already made up your mind?

Edit: The reason why I asked this question is because the topic of your thread is "Why I gave up on Christianity." The fact that you are currently on a "Christian" forum suggest that either you really have not "given up" or you are solely here for other reasons such as entertainment or proselytizing atheism.

Provide evidence that is logical & stands up to scrutiny & of course I will consider it!

 

[Serving Zion]

Provide evidence that is logical & stands up to scrutiny & of course I will consider it!

Consider then, how does God speak to us if He is present only in spirit? (John 4:24). What is spirit and what is truth? This page can help you to think more about that. Then you will understand what drives the pious and hypocritical ones to be so blind to their own hypocrisy (Matthew 6:22-23 - either the spirit is holy and of the truth without sin, or it is demonic and of deceit because of a desire to not follow the truth).

 

[mark kennedy]

It wsnt my intention to 'offend' anybody by the choice of my username. I didnt think most people would notice, & my understanding of Satan in a biblical sense, comes from a purely biblical source, which is the Old Testament, & how it is interpreted by the Jewish religion.

The sort of evidence I would require is evidence that is logical, & stands up to scrutiny. If somebody was considering a different religion to Christianity, such as the Muslim religion, would you expect them to believe without applying logic & scrutiny to what is written in the Q'uran? I find it offensive if somebody wants you to apply scrutiny to other religions but then expects you to accept their own religion based on faith, & then accuses you of 'negativity or being influenced by Satan if you question any parts of it.

Also, if I decided to practise the Muslim religion because I decided there was merit in most of it, should I practise EVERYTHING in the religion, just because of what it says in the Q'uaran, including the part that says to kill infidels if they won't convert? Or should I apply my own logic, & decide that there are parts of the religion that I really don't want to practise & believe because they don't fit my own values as a thinking human being. The Muslims who take the 1st path are the ones who probably end up as terrorists, or joining or sympathising with ISIS & AlQuada, & the other 98% take the 2nd path, & apply some semblance of logic to what is written, & decide to reject those parts that appear illogical.

Just as there are parts of the Quran I could not accept, because I would find them either illogical or against my own values, there are some parts of the Christian religion I cannot accept. I often find that those who claim to be the most pious in any religion, & go around telling others that they are not Christian enough, or not Jewish enough, or not Islamic enough because they reject some aspects of the faith, are usually the ones who are involved in wrongdoing according to their own religious belief.

Also, the Christian religion has as central to its belief the Old Testament. The Jewish religion also has the Old Testament as central to its belief. Both religions claim it is the word of God, yet both religions will also interpret many or most parts of the O.T. entirely differently. Who am I supposed to believe? I can believe the Old Testament according to Jewish belief, & many Christians will tell me that my belief is wrong! If I interpret it according to the Christian belief, the Jews will tell me my interpretation is wrong! I may as well just interpret according to my own belief, because my interpretation is likely to be just as valid as anybody else's interpretation.

The Devil in the OT doesn't get a great deal of attention really, certainly doesn't stand at the head of a demonic army as he is portrayed in the New Testament. He is called the 'Serpent' in the garden of Eden and Lucifer (son of the morning) in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. In Job he is described as a Leviathan, an image borrowed from the Phoenicians (coastal people), who had a lot of myths about giant sea monsters. I always thought the Leviathan, who is a lot like a fire breathing dragon, was developed from sea stories sailors like to tell. In the ancient near east the myth usually described life as emerging from the wadis (sea and fresh water areas near the sea). Then later after the gods were created they went to war with these monsters, it's all very dramatic. In the Revelation, the Devil is described as the Red Dragon.

Getting used to the figurative language is informative, and do note, the Devil is not really described that much by anyone other then Christ himself. Paul discusses at length the powers and principalities of darkness in high places but the details of the spiritual armies opposed to the things of God are not really that clear. The early church believed they were being persecuted by people who were under a delusion, inspired by demonic influences. That's why they didn't lash out, they believed their persecutors were victims of Satan's tricks and traps. It got really weird in medieval Europe where they saw witches and demons behind every tree.

I get the distinct impression that Islam doesn't have a Devil like New Testament Christians are used to thinking of him. More like jinns, the word we get genies from.

I'd suggest you give this a little more serious thought, take your time and let some of the literary feathers sink in and improve your understanding of the various views on this. I would warn that a name like you choose will get noticed on here, with no small amount of suspicion. If it's just a curiosity I doubt you'll find any serious problems will result, as for me, your explanation seems reasonable. Just bear in mind there are religious types who call themselves Satanists and Luciferians, and those terms are loaded with strong antichristian thinking. Proceed with caution and if there is anything I can do to help you understand these things a little better I'm glad to contribute.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Mike Czaj]

I was wondering how long it would take somebody to notice! I was just struggling to come up with a username & thought of it.
I have done quite a bit of self-study since that time, & believe that the Christian concept of Satan is made up, & is used as a tool to keep people in the church from asking too many difficult questions because the old fall back position is that you are being deceived by Satan if you have doubts.
I also think that Christianity wouldn't have half as many converts if the fear of Satan & eternal damnation in hell wasn't preached by the church. I have listened to many different sources, both christian & non christian to make my assesment, & is based on the old testament reading of Satan, which can be found here: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/the-jewish-view-of-satan/

While it may be true that some religious people wrongly use satan as a catch-all for things they do not understand or agree with, if you look objectively at the world around us, there is undeniably an evil power which corrupts, inflames, and even self destroys those who operate in it. The Scriptures reveal that there is a spiritual, unseen realm beyond our earthly senses, and that in it, God operates by His Holy Spirit, in power beyond mere human will, and that there is also an enemy, an evil power, which tempts, distorts, and attempts to confuse and destroy. The Scriptures promise that the influence in the world of the evil power will fail in the end, and that individually, Believers can live in victory now as they live in the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you think the devil is a made up creation of man, I'm curious as to what you think is the source of real evil (destruction without purpose, out of control rage, etc.)?

 

[John Bowen]

A no. of years ago when I was I was feeling depressed I met a former work friend who I hadnt seen in a while. We started talking, & then the subject got on to religion & what I believe. Well you know the story, it was a pretext to get me along to his church. I hadnt been to a church for years, so decided I would join him. I went along, & he introduced me to some of his other friends. They all seemed like cool people, so I decided it would be good to hang out with them. They then invited me to attend bible study with them, which I agreed to do.
At the end of every church service, they always called out non-believers to come out front & give themselves to Christ.
After about 3 weeks of attending bible study & going to church, I felt compelled to go to the front of the church & confess my sin, & give myself to christ. At the time i did this I was genuinely wanting to believe.
Afterwards I got all these congratulations from my friends however I didnt feel anything at all. I thought I must have done something wrong, because my friends were saying, you must feel so happy now, but i felt nothing different. After a couple more weeks, I went to the front of the church again to confess to christ, because I still didnt feel anything at all, & thought that I must not have done it right the 1st time.
Again I didnt feel anything, & by this time I was really struggling with doubt. The church I was going to also believed in talking in tongues, & after about 8 weeks my friends asked me if i am talking in tongues yet. I confessed that i wasnt, & said that I didnt know how. I was told that the holy spirit will come down & show me how. I continued going to church, but the whole time my faith was waning. I was trying desperately to believe, but just coudnt. I started to feel depressed, because I felt that I was living a lie. I tried forcing talking in tongues, but knew I was just babbling gobbledy gook. I listened closely to others to hear what they were saying when they were talking in tongues, but after a couple of weeks of close listening, realised that they were just babbling gobbledy gook as well.
I told my friends that i was struggling, & they just told me I was being negative. I also couldnt believe many of the things I was told I was supposed to believe. My mind dosnt work that way, I cant just believe on faith alone, I have to have some type of evidence, not just believe because everybody else does.
I was more or less told that if I dont believe things like the virgin birth, I am not a true christian, but i couldnt force myself to believe these things just on faith alone, & trying to do so just made me more & more depressed, because I knew to do so was just lying to myself.
I also felt that in the church, people would come up with all these wild conspiracy theories that would spread like wildfire, with absolutely no evidence to back them up. Even Christians who knew them to be false would continue to spread the rumours after they found out they werent true.
Int he end I stopped going to church & bible study, because i just couldnt bring myself to believe any more. I tried to stay in touch with the Christian friends, but after i stopped going to church & attending bible study, they seemed to have no more interest in being my friend.
There is a part two to this, but will continue later

Same thing happened to me but was way back in 2010 .You go on other forums people saying same thing there has been a shift as if Jesus Christ is no longer giving his light to churches .From my studies its because these churches aren't following Jesus's teachings that the "Kingdom of God is within you " Luke 17:21 and many others .What I do is read Jesus words and internalize them so you can reconnect to him through his WORD there you will meet the real Jesus Christ not the false one most churches are worshiping and you will feel his presence that can't be put into words , but only experienced through the WORD .

 

[natasreficul]

The Devil in the OT doesn't get a great deal of attention really, certainly doesn't stand at the head of a demonic army as he is portrayed in the New Testament. He is called the 'Serpent' in the garden of Eden and Lucifer (son of the morning) in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. In Job he is described as a Leviathan, an image borrowed from the Phoenicians (coastal people), who had a lot of myths about giant sea monsters. I always thought the Leviathan, who is a lot like a fire breathing dragon, was developed from sea stories sailors like to tell. In the ancient near east the myth usually described life as emerging from the wadis (sea and fresh water areas near the sea). Then later after the gods were created they went to war with these monsters, it's all very dramatic. In the Revelation, the Devil is described as the Red Dragon.

Getting used to the figurative language is informative, and do note, the Devil is not really described that much by anyone other then Christ himself. Paul discusses at length the powers and principalities of darkness in high places but the details of the spiritual armies opposed to the things of God are not really that clear. The early church believed they were being persecuted by people who were under a delusion, inspired by demonic influences. That's why they didn't lash out, they believed their persecutors were victims of Satan's tricks and traps. It got really weird in medieval Europe where they saw witches and demons behind every tree.

I get the distinct impression that Islam doesn't have a Devil like New Testament Christians are used to thinking of him. More like jinns, the word we get genies from.

I'd suggest you give this a little more serious thought, take your time and let some of the literary feathers sink in and improve your understanding of the various views on this. I would warn that a name like you choose will get noticed on here, with no small amount of suspicion. If it's just a curiosity I doubt you'll find any serious problems will result, as for me, your explanation seems reasonable. Just bear in mind there are religious types who call themselves Satanists and Luciferians, and those terms are loaded with strong antichristian thinking. Proceed with caution and if there is anything I can do to help you understand these things a little better I'm glad to contribute.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark, thanks for your reply. From memory, Jesus dosnt say much about Satan at all in the Synoptic gospels (correct me if I am wrong), & it is only in the Gospel of John where Satan gets much of a mention. It is also only in the gospel of John where Jesus claims that he & the father are one.

So this brings me to the question, what am I supposed to believe from the N.T. If I only read the Synoptic gospels, I probably would not come to the conclusion that Jesus is equal with God. If I only read the Synoptic gospels, I also would probably not see Satan as anything more as a tempter, without any real power, as Jesus was easily able to dismiss Satan, & Satan did nothing evil. I certainly wouldnt see Satan as a demonic figure.

It seems to me that most Christians base their entire faith on Jesus divinity & the evil of Satan on the Gospel of John. But doesn't that violate the Jewish law of requiring at least 2 witnesses for something to be true?

Regarding the Serpent in the garden of Eden, again where does it come from that the Serpent was Satan? I am pretty sure that this isn't an Old Testament concept, & I think comes from the book of Revelation (again correct me if I am wrong, because it has been quite some time since I read the bible). Certainly, in the book of Job, Satan does not appear to God as a serpent. He appears to god with other Angels, & God asks for Satans opinion about Job. This does not sound like an evil demonic figure to me. Why would God ask the opinion of an evil demonic figure, who is in a war with God for our souls?

On what basis should I accept that the Gospel of John is true regarding Jesus life? It is unlikely that the person who wrote the Gospel of John was actually the Disciple of Jesus, because most scholars (including Christian scholars) agree that it was not written till around 95-100 CE (some put it even later, however, I am happy to go with the earlier date) This would have made John a very old man, & the average life expectancy back then was not that high. Would his eyesight have been good enough to write, when there were no reading glasses back in those days? Why would the actual disciple of John wait so long to write it? Can you remember word for word things somebody else said even 1 year ago, let alone 60 to 70 years after they supposedly said it? Why does none of the other Gospels have concordance with the Gospel of John in what Jesus was supposed to have said?

 

[klutedavid]

A no. of years ago when I was I was feeling depressed I met a former work friend who I hadnt seen in a while. We started talking, & then the subject got on to religion & what I believe. Well you know the story, it was a pretext to get me along to his church. I hadnt been to a church for years, so decided I would join him. I went along, & he introduced me to some of his other friends. They all seemed like cool people, so I decided it would be good to hang out with them. They then invited me to attend bible study with them, which I agreed to do.
At the end of every church service, they always called out non-believers to come out front & give themselves to Christ.
After about 3 weeks of attending bible study & going to church, I felt compelled to go to the front of the church & confess my sin, & give myself to christ. At the time i did this I was genuinely wanting to believe.
Afterwards I got all these congratulations from my friends however I didnt feel anything at all. I thought I must have done something wrong, because my friends were saying, you must feel so happy now, but i felt nothing different. After a couple more weeks, I went to the front of the church again to confess to christ, because I still didnt feel anything at all, & thought that I must not have done it right the 1st time.
Again I didnt feel anything, & by this time I was really struggling with doubt. The church I was going to also believed in talking in tongues, & after about 8 weeks my friends asked me if i am talking in tongues yet. I confessed that i wasnt, & said that I didnt know how. I was told that the holy spirit will come down & show me how. I continued going to church, but the whole time my faith was waning. I was trying desperately to believe, but just coudnt. I started to feel depressed, because I felt that I was living a lie. I tried forcing talking in tongues, but knew I was just babbling gobbledy gook. I listened closely to others to hear what they were saying when they were talking in tongues, but after a couple of weeks of close listening, realised that they were just babbling gobbledy gook as well.
I told my friends that i was struggling, & they just told me I was being negative. I also couldnt believe many of the things I was told I was supposed to believe. My mind dosnt work that way, I cant just believe on faith alone, I have to have some type of evidence, not just believe because everybody else does.
I was more or less told that if I dont believe things like the virgin birth, I am not a true christian, but i couldnt force myself to believe these things just on faith alone, & trying to do so just made me more & more depressed, because I knew to do so was just lying to myself.
I also felt that in the church, people would come up with all these wild conspiracy theories that would spread like wildfire, with absolutely no evidence to back them up. Even Christians who knew them to be false would continue to spread the rumours after they found out they werent true.
Int he end I stopped going to church & bible study, because i just couldnt bring myself to believe any more. I tried to stay in touch with the Christian friends, but after i stopped going to church & attending bible study, they seemed to have no more interest in being my friend.
There is a part two to this, but will continue later

Christianity is based on the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christianity at it's core is that trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The Old Testament predicted the arrival of Jesus Christ, these prophecies tell us who the Christ would be. This is the foundation of our faith, Jesus Christ Himself. I cannot fault the messianic prophecies, I am driven to believe in Jesus Christ.

Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit and not all are given that gift. Are all teachers?
Are all prophets? The scripture is clear that speaking in tongues is not for everyone, that should be the end of the matter.

As for the virgin birth, this is a minor point and is not a prerequisite for salvation.

All that will matter on judgement day is whether you really believed in Jesus Christ. Whether you took your faith in Him seriously and bore the fruit of the Holy Spirit. This is all that matters in the end.

 

[natasreficul]

While it may be true that some religious people wrongly use satan as a catch-all for things they do not understand or agree with, if you look objectively at the world around us, there is undeniably an evil power which corrupts, inflames, and even self destroys those who operate in it. The Scriptures reveal that there is a spiritual, unseen realm beyond our earthly senses, and that in it, God operates by His Holy Spirit, in power beyond mere human will, and that there is also an enemy, an evil power, which tempts, distorts, and attempts to confuse and destroy. The Scriptures promise that the influence in the world of the evil power will fail in the end, and that individually, Believers can live in victory now as they live in the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you think the devil is a made-up creation of man, I'm curious as to what you think is the source of real evil (destruction without purpose, out of control rage, etc.)?

Hi Mike, thanks for your reply. Definitely, people can do evil things, there is no question in that. Does this mean that there is an evil force causing them to do these things? That is definitely NOT my belief based on MY logic. Of course, my logic can be faulty, but that does not mean that i should automatically reject my own logic & accept somebody else's logic, because their logic can be faulty as well.
If I am to accept that there is a good spirit (God), & an evil spirit (Satan), doesn't that imply that there are two gods, & not just one (a good God & an evil God)?
How do I decide who is the good god, & who is the evil god? If I read the old testament, the God who is described as good appears to do & command & encourage evil things.
Should I accept slavery as good, because God says it is Ok to keep slaves, & even gives instruction about it? Should I accept genocide as good, because God commands the Israelite armies to conquer other tribes, & kill every man & boy child & older women, & to take the young women & girls as slaves?
Why is it ok for God to kill all the 1st born Egyptian boys when they are innocents? Can an all-powerful 'good' god not come up with a better way to have his people released from slavery?
The entirety of humankind gets the blame when Adam & Eve eat fruit from the tree of knowledge, which God planted in full view in the garden, & then ALLOWED a talking snake to go & deceive them. And why WOULD it be a problem for people to gain knowledge (that bit I have never been able to understand). It is almost as if the 'good god' WANTED Adam & Eve to fail.
The 'good' God wipes out the whole world's population (genocide again) by a great flood (including all the animals) because HIS creation does not go as planned. And does the good God ever take responsibility when he stuffs up or does he always blame his own creation?

 

[natasreficul]

Christianity is based on the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christianity at it's core is that trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The Old Testament predicted the arrival of Jesus Christ, these prophecies tell us who the Christ would be. This is the foundation of our faith, Jesus Christ Himself. I cannot fault the messianic prophecies, I am driven to believe in Jesus Christ.

Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit and not all are given that gift. Are all teachers?
Are all prophets? The scripture is clear that speaking in tongues is not for everyone, that should be the end of the matter.

As for the virgin birth, this is a minor point and is not a prerequisite for salvation.

All that will matter on judgement day is whether you really believed in Jesus Christ. Whether you took your faith in Him seriously and bore the fruit of the Holy Spirit. This is all that matters in the end.

If I am to accept the premise that the O.T. DID prophesy Jesus as 'The Messiah' as claimed, that does not mean that I have to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, because 'The Messiah' of the Old Testament is NOT god, but an anointed king, who is to come & rule the Israelites & himself fulfil certain prophecies which Jesus never fulfilled. How do we get from Jesus the messiah (which Jesus & his followers may have believed himself to be), to God himself? I don't believe that Jesus ever thought himself to be God, & I believe that this was thrust upon him by later believers, not that Jesus himself claimed to be God.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi Mark, thanks for your reply. From memory, Jesus dosnt say much about Satan at all in the Synoptic gospels (correct me if I am wrong), & it is only in the Gospel of John where Satan gets much of a mention. It is also only in the gospel of John where Jesus claims that he & the father are one.

So this brings me to the question, what am I supposed to believe from the N.T. If I only read the Synoptic gospels, I probably would not come to the conclusion that Jesus is equal with God. If I only read the Synoptic gospels, I also would probably not see Satan as anything more as a tempter, without any real power, as Jesus was easily able to dismiss Satan, & Satan did nothing evil. I certainly wouldnt see Satan as a demonic figure.

It seems to me that most Christians base their entire faith on Jesus divinity & the evil of Satan on the Gospel of John. But doesn't that violate the Jewish law of requiring at least 2 witnesses for something to be true?

Regarding the Serpent in the garden of Eden, again where does it come from that the Serpent was Satan? I am pretty sure that this isn't an Old Testament concept, & I think comes from the book of Revelation (again correct me if I am wrong, because it has been quite some time since I read the bible). Certainly, in the book of Job, Satan does not appear to God as a serpent. He appears to god with other Angels, & God asks for Satans opinion about Job. This does not sound like an evil demonic figure to me. Why would God ask the opinion of an evil demonic figure, who is in a war with God for our souls?

This verse explains that:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:2)
​

This is consistent with the Devil being the 'accuser of our brothers':

And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, he who accuses them day and night before our God. (Rev. 12:9-10)​

It is rather disconcerting that after such a rebellion the Devil makes his way back into the heavenly courts. But that is the New Testament witness and confirmed in the Old Testament, especially with regards to Job.

On what basis should I accept that the Gospel of John is true regarding Jesus life? It is unlikely that the person who wrote the Gospel of John was actually the Disciple of Jesus, because most scholars (including Christian scholars) agree that it was not written till around 95-100 CE (some put it even later, however, I am happy to go with the earlier date) This would have made John a very old man, & the average life expectancy back then was not that high. Would his eyesight have been good enough to write, when there were no reading glasses back in those days? Why would the actual disciple of John wait so long to write it?

When the Apostle John wrote the Gospel according to John he was probably the pastor at Ephesus. All the rationalizations about John's authorship are modern phenomenon, rarely based on anything substantive.

Can you remember word for word things somebody else said even 1 year ago, let alone 60 to 70 years after they supposedly said it? Why does none of the other Gospels have concordance with the Gospel of John in what Jesus was supposed to have said?

The authorship of John is hardly something I have seen serious questions about, the church knows it's own sacred writings. They have been in the custody of a living witness their entire history as have the OT Hebrew writings.

By my count there are 17 references to Satan in the synoptic Gospels and only one in John.

From Vine's Dictionary of the New Testament:

In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary

• of God and Christ, e.g., Matthew 4:10; 12:26; Mark 1:13; 3:23, 26; 4:15; Luke 4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; John 13:27;
• of His people, e.g., Luke 22:31; Acts 5:3; Romans 16:20; 1Corinthians 5:5; 7:5; 2Cr 2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1Th 2:18; 1Ti 1:20; 5:15; Rev 2:9, 13 (twice), 24; 3:9;
• of mankind, Luke 13:16; Acts 26:18; 2 Thessolnians 2:9; Rev 12:9; 20:7.

His doom, sealed at the Cross is foretold in its stages in Luke 10:18; Rev 20:2, 10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Romans 16:20. The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Matthew 16:23; Mark 8:33.

"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen (John 14:30, 2Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15); moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. (see G4567 Σατανᾶς Satanas)​

Let's take this into perspective, Jesus speaks often of the Devil/Satan, there are extensive quotes and not just in John:

Satan: Is there really a Devil? Some chose to ignore the reality that there is a literal Devil who seeks to devour and destroy. The language of Jesus certainly indicates His own belief in the Devil’s existence.

Jesus said a good deal about Satan. He called him:

"the enemy", Matthew 13:39.
"The evil one", Matthew 13:38
"The prince of this world", John 12:31; 14:30
"A liar", and "the father of lies", John 8:44.
"A murderer", John 8:44.

He said that he "saw him fallen from heaven", Luke 10:18.
That he has a "kingdom", Matthew 12:26.
That "evil men are his sons", Matthew 13:38.
That he "sowed tares among the wheat", Matthew 13:38,39.
He "snatches Word from hearers", Matthew 13:19; Mark 4:15; Luke 8:12.
The he "bound a woman for 18 years", Luke 13:16.
That he "desired to have Peter", Luke 22:31.
That the has "angels", Matthew 25:41.
That "eternal fire is prepared for him", Matthew 25:41
The Bible represents Satan as:
"The tempter", Matthew 4:3
"The prince of demons", Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15.
"Source of demoniacal possession", Matthew 12:22-29; Luke 11:14-23
That he put the betrayal into the heart of Judas, Jn 13:2,27.
That he perverts the Scripture, Matthew 4:4; Luke 4: 10,11
That he is "the god of this world", 11 Cor. 4:4.
That he is "the prince of the power of the air", Ephesians 2:2
That he "fashions himself into an angel of light", 11 Cor. 11:14.
That he is our "adversary", 1 Peter 5:8.
He is "the deceiver of the whole world", Rev. 12:9; 20: 3,8,10.
Calls him "the great dragon", "the old serpent", Revelation 12:9; 20:2.
The "seducer of Adam and Eve", Genesis 3:1-20.
That he will "flee if resisted", James 4:7.
That he caused "Paul's thorn in the flesh", 11 Cor. 12:7.
Hindered Paul's missionary plans, 1 Thess. 2:18.
Caused Ananias to lie, Acts 5:3.
That Gentiles are under his power, Acts 26:18.
That he blinds the minds of unbelievers, 11 Cor. 4:4.
False teachers are "a synagogue of Satan", Rev. 2:9; 3:9.
Can produce false miracles, 11 Thes. 2:9.
Is the moving spirit of the ''Apostasy'', 11 Thes. 2:9
As a roaring lion seeks to devour Christians, 1 Peter 5:8
Is overcome by faith, 1 Peter 5:9.
Is wiley, Ephesians 6:11.
Is the spirit that works in the disobedient, Ephesians 2:2
Moved David to sin, I Chron. 21:1.
Caused Job's troubles, Job 1:7-2:10.
Was the Adversary of Joshua, Zech. 3:1-9.
Gets the advantage of Christians, 11 Cor. 2:11.
Evil men are his children, 1 John 3:8,10. ((Halley's Bible Handbook)
​

That's just to give you an idea of how often Satan is mentioned in Scripture, I think you've gotten some bad information. Give the source material a once over and we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[david tyler]

DELETED

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Provide evidence that is logical & stands up to scrutiny & of course I will consider it!

First, do you believe that "truth" exists in reality and that this "truth" is knowable?

 

[natasreficul]

This verse explains that:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:2)
​

This is consistent with the Devil being the 'accuser of our brothers':

And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, he who accuses them day and night before our God. (Rev. 12:9-10)​

It is rather disconcerting that after such a rebellion the Devil makes his way back into the heavenly courts. But that is the New Testament witness and confirmed in the Old Testament, especially with regards to Job.
When the Apostle John wrote the Gospel according to John he was probably the pastor at Ephesus. All the rationalizations about John's authorship are modern phenomenon, rarely based on anything substantive.

The authorship of John is hardly something I have seen serious questions about, the church knows it's own sacred writings. They have been in the custody of a living witness their entire history as have the OT Hebrew writings.

By my count there are 17 references to Satan in the synoptic Gospels and only one in John.

From Vine's Dictionary of the New Testament:

In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary

• of God and Christ, e.g., Matthew 4:10; 12:26; Mark 1:13; 3:23, 26; 4:15; Luke 4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; John 13:27;
• of His people, e.g., Luke 22:31; Acts 5:3; Romans 16:20; 1Corinthians 5:5; 7:5; 2Cr 2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1Th 2:18; 1Ti 1:20; 5:15; Rev 2:9, 13 (twice), 24; 3:9;
• of mankind, Luke 13:16; Acts 26:18; 2 Thessolnians 2:9; Rev 12:9; 20:7.

His doom, sealed at the Cross is foretold in its stages in Luke 10:18; Rev 20:2, 10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Romans 16:20. The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Matthew 16:23; Mark 8:33.

"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen (John 14:30, 2Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15); moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. (see G4567 Σατανᾶς Satanas)​

Let's take this into perspective, Jesus speaks often of the Devil/Satan, there are extensive quotes and not just in John:

Satan: Is there really a Devil? Some chose to ignore the reality that there is a literal Devil who seeks to devour and destroy. The language of Jesus certainly indicates His own belief in the Devil’s existence.

Jesus said a good deal about Satan. He called him:

"the enemy", Matthew 13:39.
"The evil one", Matthew 13:38
"The prince of this world", John 12:31; 14:30
"A liar", and "the father of lies", John 8:44.
"A murderer", John 8:44.

He said that he "saw him fallen from heaven", Luke 10:18.
That he has a "kingdom", Matthew 12:26.
That "evil men are his sons", Matthew 13:38.
That he "sowed tares among the wheat", Matthew 13:38,39.
He "snatches Word from hearers", Matthew 13:19; Mark 4:15; Luke 8:12.
The he "bound a woman for 18 years", Luke 13:16.
That he "desired to have Peter", Luke 22:31.
That the has "angels", Matthew 25:41.
That "eternal fire is prepared for him", Matthew 25:41
The Bible represents Satan as:
"The tempter", Matthew 4:3
"The prince of demons", Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15.
"Source of demoniacal possession", Matthew 12:22-29; Luke 11:14-23
That he put the betrayal into the heart of Judas, Jn 13:2,27.
That he perverts the Scripture, Matthew 4:4; Luke 4: 10,11
That he is "the god of this world", 11 Cor. 4:4.
That he is "the prince of the power of the air", Ephesians 2:2
That he "fashions himself into an angel of light", 11 Cor. 11:14.
That he is our "adversary", 1 Peter 5:8.
He is "the deceiver of the whole world", Rev. 12:9; 20: 3,8,10.
Calls him "the great dragon", "the old serpent", Revelation 12:9; 20:2.
The "seducer of Adam and Eve", Genesis 3:1-20.
That he will "flee if resisted", James 4:7.
That he caused "Paul's thorn in the flesh", 11 Cor. 12:7.
Hindered Paul's missionary plans, 1 Thess. 2:18.
Caused Ananias to lie, Acts 5:3.
That Gentiles are under his power, Acts 26:18.
That he blinds the minds of unbelievers, 11 Cor. 4:4.
False teachers are "a synagogue of Satan", Rev. 2:9; 3:9.
Can produce false miracles, 11 Thes. 2:9.
Is the moving spirit of the ''Apostasy'', 11 Thes. 2:9
As a roaring lion seeks to devour Christians, 1 Peter 5:8
Is overcome by faith, 1 Peter 5:9.
Is wiley, Ephesians 6:11.
Is the spirit that works in the disobedient, Ephesians 2:2
Moved David to sin, I Chron. 21:1.
Caused Job's troubles, Job 1:7-2:10.
Was the Adversary of Joshua, Zech. 3:1-9.
Gets the advantage of Christians, 11 Cor. 2:11.
Evil men are his children, 1 John 3:8,10. ((Halley's Bible Handbook)
​

That's just to give you an idea of how often Satan is mentioned in Scripture, I think you've gotten some bad information. Give the source material a once over and we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark, you say that the Christian view in Satan is confirmed in the O.T. in the book of Job. Maye you are reading a translation different to mine, or maybe you havent read the book of Job for some time, but I suggest that you read the 1st 2 chapters of Job again. Satan as described in the book of Job is fairly consistent with the temptation of Christ in the Gospel of Mark, but NOT consistent with the description given in either John or Revelation. In the old testament Satan is an adversary or tempter, but who is doing Gods work. In the book of Job, Satan is NOT acting on his own, but at the behest of God.

I find the Gospel of Mark to be the most honest Gospel in the N.T. When Jesus is tempted in the wilderness, very little is said about it by Mark. Mathew & Luke go into much more detail.

So I ask you this, if Jesus was alone in the wilderness, who's account likely to be the most accurate? The person who says the least about the temptation, or the one who says the most about the temptation? Jesus was ALONE which means there were no eyewitnesses. That is why I find Marks account the most believable.

Similarly with the virgin birth. Mark says nothing about the virgin birth, whereas Mathew & Luke add a virgin birth (both with differing accounts). Jesus said nothing about a virgin birth, Paul said nothing about a virgin birth. The only person who could possibly know if she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, is Mary the mother of Jesus herself, yet we have no testimony from her at all. In the gospel of Mark, when Jesus is preaching at Nazareth, Jesus entire family comes to fetch him because they think he has gone crazy, not understanding why he is preaching the things that he is preaching Surely if Mary & Joseph had both had angels visit them to tell them that the child Mary is carrying is from immaculate conception, they would also know that God had other plans for him, so I find it hard to believe that they would think he was crazy from preaching stuff about God.
From memory both Mathew & luke gloss over or neglect to mention this, probably because they can see themselves how inconsistent this account is with the virgin birth.

You say that

The authorship of John is hardly something I have seen serious questions about, the church knows it's own sacred writings. They have been in the custody of a living witness their entire history as have the OT Hebrew writings.

Again, I have read that there was much debate about including both John & Revelation in the cannon in the 1st place. The fact is it was included, & merely BECAUSE it was, christian apologists claim that we HAVE to believe it. Based on what evidence do I have to believe the Gospel of John when there is NO other evidence to back up that it is true? I have no evidence that john was an eyewitness, I have no evidence that John was a scribe for an eyewitness, & there are no other comparable gospels to back up the claims made in John.

Put it this way, say I have never read the bible before, & I find a Mormon bible, & I start reading it. I start to believe a lot of what is written in it until I get to the parts that were written by Joseph Smith. So I go to the Mormon church & ask them, do I have to believe EVERYTHING in your bible to become a Mormon, or can I just believe the parts that make sense? If the church says that you have to believe the whole box & dice, I am probably out of there never to return. I feel the same way about the Christian bible, some parts of it make sense, a lot of it doesn't. In other words, my logical mind would tell me that the account by Joseph Smith is false. In the New Testament, my logical mind tells me that there are parts of the Christian bible that is false.

 

[natasreficul]

First, do you believe that "truth" exists in reality and that this "truth" is knowable?

I believe truth exists. I don't know if we can know truth to be 100% knowable. There is usually always some element of doubt in any knowledge.
iF I am going to believe something, there has to be a valid basis for me to believe it. It cant just be, it's in the bible, the bible is the word of god, so therefore it has to be true, type of belief. If you are going to present evidence as true, then it has to be evidence that cannot be explained by another simpler explanation.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't know if we can know truth to be 100% knowable.

First, how do you know that this statement is true? Second, could you please explain. Because based on this comment, regardless of any evidence a provide, you would still have doubt as to whether or not it is true. Why would I provide you evidence if it would be impossible for you to trust that it is true?

 

[klutedavid]

If I am to accept the premise that the O.T. DID prophesy Jesus as 'The Messiah' as claimed, that does not mean that I have to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, because 'The Messiah' of the Old Testament is NOT god, but an anointed king, who is to come & rule the Israelites & himself fulfil certain prophecies which Jesus never fulfilled. How do we get from Jesus the messiah (which Jesus & his followers may have believed himself to be), to God himself? I don't believe that Jesus ever thought himself to be God, & I believe that this was thrust upon him by later believers, not that Jesus himself claimed to be God.

Your answer is correct, the deity of the Christ is not listed as one of the requirements for salvation. Though Jesus did in fact claim equality with God which the scripture demonstrates.

Though there is ample evidence that the Christ was God's very Son in human form. Which of course was blasphemy and Jesus was accused of committing that blasphemy.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Here read the following paragraph from the Old Testament, written centuries before Jesus was born.

Ezekiel 1:26-28
Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like blue crystal in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

That was a vision that the prophet Ezekiel received by the river Chebar. You may notice that the figure above seated on the throne, has the appearance of a man. The vision of that man on the throne is there for a reason.

Now for a vision in the New Testament of Jesus.

Revelation 1:12-15
And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands; and in the middle of the lamp stands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.

The vision of Ezekiel is God on the throne, obviously, yet John's vision of Jesus is identical to the appearance of God in Ezekiel.

 

[natasreficul]

First, how do you know that this statement is true? Second, could you please explain. Because based on this comment, regardless of any evidence a provide, you would still have doubt as to whether or not it is true. Why would I provide you evidence if it would be impossible for you to trust that it is true?

Maybe i phrased that incorrectly. I believe for instance with 100% certainty that the earth is round & not flat. i believe with 100% certainty that the earth orbits the sun. I believe with 100% certainty that Neil Armstrong & Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon in 1969.
I dont know with 100% certainty that the universe started with the big bang (though I dont know of a simpler explanation), i dont know with 100% certainty that a God does exist, but i also cannot say with 100% certainty that a God does not exist. I believe that Jesus was a real person based on the evidence presented by those who believe he was real, & evience presented by mythologists. i decided that the evidence presented by those who say Jesus was a real person to be more compelling than that presented by mythologists, but i cannot say with 100% certainty that he was a real person.
I believe that if I go out to start my car it will start the 1st time I turn the key, based on past evidence & experience with this particular car. But can I say that with 100% certainty? There is always a possibility that it wont this time.
Can you tell me that everything that you believe is truth is 100% certain? There are some beliefs that you will have that will be truth, & some beliefs that you have that wont be truth. i choose to believe based on the evidence before me, but there may be other evidence i do not know about that if presented to me could change my belief. You may believe that what you believe about your religion is 100% certain. Many muslims are also 100% certain that their religion is true. Either one or both of you has to be wrong.