Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[Pedra]

It is unfortunate that all happened. For me, I really don't know why anyone having serious marriage issues would go to there Pastor or his wife or any elders in their Church in first place, before at least seeking professional counselling. The Pastor's are untrained in these matters, they are not Social Workers, Psychologists or certified in Family Counselling, Marriage Counselling or knowledgeable if there is any physical, emotional or sexual abuse going on. On the Church bulletins they should encourage people to seek a licensed professional and get support, help and guidance in serious matters.
Churches really should have all the Community numbers for all things related to this and should be taught to refer people & realize their own limitations. If they want to deal with some level of these things they need to go to some legit training and get certified, otherwise they are way out of their depth and could do more harm then good.

 

[Endeavourer]

It is unfortunate that all happened. For me, I really don't know why anyone having serious marriage issues would go to there Pastor or his wife or any elders in their Church in first place, before at least seeking professional counselling. The Pastor's are untrained in these matters, they are not Social Workers, Psychologists or certified in Family Counselling, Marriage Counselling or knowledgeable if there is any physical, emotional or sexual abuse going on. On the Church bulletins they should encourage people to seek a licensed professional and get support, help and guidance in serious matters.
Churches really should have all the Community numbers for all things related to this and should be taught to refer people & realize their own limitations. If they want to deal with some level of these things they need to go to some legit training and get certified, otherwise they are way out of their depth and could do more harm then good.

Great post! There are few pastors who have this capability but nearly all of them are expected to provide it.

Unfortunately in the article I posted, the treatment was at the hands of a trained church counselor and various other people set up to minister to those in difficulty.

 

[Hazelelponi]

What were your feelings about the situation in the article included in my initial post? To your perspective, was the wife was counseled and treated according to Scripture?

It is at:
Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

Other than its a poorly written gossip column where you can't make heads nor tails of any details?

From what I understood her husband left her after two weeks of marriage saying he made a mistake in marrying her.. at some point during that two weeks he celebrated his anniversary to his first wife..

was the first wife dead? We don't know.. if she was dead he likely just missed her, if she's alive why was the marriage to the second woman considered a marriage at all?

We don't know, because the article provides no details..

So there is some intensive marriage counselling where they are put up in what seems like a hotel room..

If this is the case why did the woman not purchase a second room if she felt so strongly about not staying in the same bed as the husband?

we are told nothing of the situation, only that the woman said "It felt like rape"

Why did she put herself in the situation if she didn't want to work out her marriage? Why did she go for Christian marriage counselling in this manner?

We don't know, because the article doesn't say..

By the 20th name drop of people whose names mean nothing to me and an unclear storyline I simply closed the article.

There's no point reading gossip, and even less point in believing everything you read. There's always more than one side of a story, and this article was written as a gossip rag trash article.

I'm far too intelligent to waste my time on such nonsense.

 

[LoricaLady]

Well, I did decide to add one last, final, that's it, thought. Mho. I think that those serious abusers are likely to be helped only by a really excellent deliverance ministry, and/or a creative miracle that gives them new cortex in their empathy areas and healing for mental health genetic issues in general. Again, mho. If you disagree, fine. No problem but no argument.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Pastors go to school to learn theology.. that is their specialty and their training.. Any advice and counselling they give will necessarily be according to Scripture..

If people don't like what the scriptures teach, they can always take it up with God.

I was employed by the Ministry of Justice as a domestic violence victim advisor for 10 years. I have seen the devastating effect of this type of violence and seen innocent victims murdered by their abusive partners when they wanted to end the relationship.

In my experience, many pastors and church leaders have little insight into domestic violence and how to help victims, and often their advice simply makes their situation worse. Domestic violence is a criminal offence, and pastors who blame the victim or give advice like "love your husband more", "be more obedient", "don't leave the marriage", or "let God handle it", are just aiding and abetting the criminal action of the abuser, and such a pastor should be charged with acting to defeat course of justice, and if a victim under their care is seriously injured or even killed, that pastor should be subject to litigation and sued for malpractice and negligence.

A big part of ministerial and pastoral training is Pastoral Care, because a pastor is not just a Bible teacher, but he is the shepherd of the people, and therefore needs to either be competent to counsel domestic violence victims, or have people on his staff who are.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I was employed by the Ministry of Justice as a domestic violence victim advisor for 10 years. I have seen the devastating effect of this type of violence and seen innocent victims murdered by their abusive partners when they wanted to end the relationship.

In my experience, many pastors and church leaders have little insight into domestic violence and how to help victims, and often their advice simply makes their situation worse. Domestic violence is a criminal offence, and pastors who blame the victim or give advice like "love your husband more", "be more obedient", "don't leave the marriage", or "let God handle it", are just aiding and abetting the criminal action of the abuser, and such a pastor should be charged with acting to defeat course of justice, and if a victim under their care is seriously injured or even killed, that pastor should be subject to litigation and sued for malpractice and negligence.

A big part of ministerial and pastoral training is Pastoral Care, because a pastor is not just a Bible teacher, but he is the shepherd of the people, and therefore needs to either be competent to counsel domestic violence victims, or have people on his staff who are.

My ex husband broke my back which left me permanently disabled.. my children and I endured years of severe abuse which left all of us permanently scarred..

I know abuse.

I also know gossip and stupidity, and a woman who gets a hotel room with a single bed for her and her husband so they can work out their marriage really has no ability to cry about how she "felt like she was raped" and blame others for her feelings about what she entered into willingly.

If she didn't want to work out the marriage she didn't have to... she could have just gotten a divorce.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, I did decide to add one last, final, that's it, thought. Mho. I think that those serious abusers are likely to be helped only by a really excellent deliverance ministry, and/or a creative miracle that gives them new cortex in their empathy areas and healing for mental health genetic issues in general. Again, mho. If you disagree, fine. No problem but no argument.

In my experience after having a 10 year career as a Ministry of Justice domestic violence victim advisor, what you are suggesting would not work. Domestic violence is an issue of dominance where the abuser uses violence to dominate his partner or spouse. Our Courts have anger management counselling for DV offenders, but has a very low success rate, because the anger is a secondary emotion which has a primary cause.

True, that some abusers may have mental health or spiritual issues, but these are a minor cause of domestic violence. Sometimes the only way to fully protect a victim is to have the abuser given a custodial sentence and the victim put on a witness protection programme where she is relocated and given a totally new identity.

The trouble is, that the abuser when he gets out of prison, just goes and gets into another relationship and the abuse continues with another victim.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My ex husband broke my back which left me permanently disabled.. my children and I endured years of severe abuse which left all of us permanently scarred..

I know abuse.

I also know gossip and stupidity, and a woman who gets a hotel room with a single bed for her and her husband so they can work out their marriage really has no ability to cry about how she "felt like she was raped" and blame others for her feelings about what she entered into willingly.

If she didn't want to work out the marriage she didn't have to... she could have just gotten a divorce.

My usual advice for domestic violence victims is "Go to the police and make a complaint and let the courts deal with him". Domestic violence is a criminal offence and should be treated as such. If someone assaulted me in the street, I would have hesitation in calling the police. I wouldn't try and arrange a time over coffee at a cafe to try and work out differences with a stranger who assaulted me. I would get the police involved and let the court deal with the guy.

Even psychological abuse involving threatening language and behaviour is also a criminal offence, and just because it happens in the home doesn't make it any different.

 

[Hazelelponi]

My usual advice for domestic violence victims is "Go to the police and make a complaint and let the courts deal with him". Domestic violence is a criminal offence and should be treated as such. If someone assaulted me in the street, I would have hesitation in calling the police. I wouldn't try and arrange a time over coffee at a cafe to try and work out differences with a stranger who assaulted me. I would get the police involved and let the court deal with the guy.

Even psychological abuse involving threatening language and behaviour is also a criminal offence, and just because it happens in the home doesn't make it any different.

The woman in the article wasn't a victim of domestic violence from what I could tell from the article..

So the advice on trying to work out their marriage was likely sound.

She made some statement about how when she was trying to do some marriage thing they got a single hotel room together and it made her "feel" like she was raped.

The article doesn't say why she felt that way, or even whether she had sex with him..

Was she raped? Likely not, at best she spread her legs and didn't mentally feel like she wanted to..

That's not domestic violence... not by a long shot.

 

[Endeavourer]

The woman in the article wasn't a victim of domestic violence from what I could tell from the article..

So the advice on trying to work out their marriage was likely sound.

She made some statement about how when she was trying to do some marriage thing they got a single hotel room together and it made her "feel" like she was raped.

The article doesn't say why she felt that way, or even whether she had sex with him..

Was she raped? Likely not, at best she spread her legs and didn't mentally feel like she wanted to..

That's not domestic violence... not by a long shot.

I wonder if my link didn't work right? You're not referencing the article I intended to link:

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

 

[Hazelelponi]

I wonder if my link didn't work right? You're not referencing the article I intended to link:

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

Your referencing part two.. the article says if you didn't read part 1 to read it first, so I clicked for part 1 and got just a little bit further on from the intensive counselling thing she opted to do with her husband..

I'm not finishing it and reading part 2, because part 1 told me it was trashy gossip...

 

[packermann]

There are zero Bible verses telling us to venerate Mary, or pray to her, etc. I'm sure she was a wonderful woman, but it is not true that the Bible does not give support to women other than through her.

You don't see them because your male pastors, trained in a male-dominated seminary, don't want to see them and don't want their people to see any Bible verses that would exalt any woman above all men.

But here is one. The Jewish kings had multiple wives. King David and King Solomon had hundreds of wives. So who was the Queen? It was none of them! Their mother was the Queen, because no matter how many wives the kings had, they only had one mother. This is shown in the first two chapters of 1 Kings. In chapter 1, King David's wife, Bathsheba, one of his many wives, came to David and bowed to him. But in chapter, David had died and Solomon was now king, and Bathsheba, his mother, came to see her. King Solomon bowed before her and ordered a throne to be set right next to his throne, so that Bathsheba would sit and rule alongside Solomon. This reflects how seriously the people took the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother". So when the Jews who believed that Jesus was their Messiah, their King, they knew what it meant concerning His mother - she would be the Queen.

And look at Hebrews 12. It says that we are approaching the souls made perfect in heaven:


22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I bet you never had heard a sermon on this passage! I bet you never heard that we are approaching (present tense) the spirits of the the righteous. So if we can approach them then we can talk to them. And if we can talk to them then we can ask them to pray for us. And since Mary is among them we can ask her to pray for us.

The Commandment to not commit adultery, for both men and women, gave much protection to women, ditto the Commandment to honor both your mother and father. We see women prophets in the Old Testament. We see that Deborah was one who was of the very few good judges over Israel. Jael was a woman who tricked and killed a major enemy of Israel. Rahab helped the Israelites defeat Jericho. Lydia, like other first century women, helped evangelize believers. The first person to announce "He is risen" was a woman. The men didn't believe her at first!

"There is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female." That is what really gives a Christian women her equality. As a woman, to be frank, I would feel insulted if I thought the only reason men respected me was because of something having to do with Mary! I used to be Catholic as a child and have known many Catholics. I never saw any men or women who were treating women rightly because of anything at all having to do with Mary, protestant or Catholic.

This all true. But evidently that is not enough or this thread would never have been created. The thread's creator is warning abused women not to go to ministers for marital counseling because they tend to side with the husbands.

I believe you will find no statistics that those who are Catholic are any more or less likely to abuse women that those who are not.

Not sure what you mean. If Catholic husbands are less likely than Protestant husbands to abuse their wives then this would prove my case.

But it not an issue of who is more likely to abuse their wives. That would be hard since there are many baptized Catholics who never even go to Church. We have to look at those who practice their faith. And the issue is which clergy would provide male chauvinistic counseling on the side of the husband. I think it would be the Protestant minister.

 

[mkgal1]

I might change church because of a probable smear campaign from abuser questioning my sanity. I would like to do the training for this policy and call out the crap.

I feel that it would e good if l am strong enough to be true to my truth for my inner healing from lifelong abuse though l know l will need support for this.

Honestly, it may be best for your emotional health to just move on and leave them to themselves.

When your value and worth is on the line while calling out 'leadership', it is an battle that is usually too expensive even if you win and devastating with long term effects if you lose.

Thanks for the warning. But wouldn't God want the truth of be fought for?

I agree with Endeavourer. In order to be effective in "calling out abuse" you would have to be in a position of power within the church or have someone *in* power to come alongside you (and that is the trouble with a system of abuse - it's an abuse of power where abuse is enabled instead of that power being used to stand up for those without power). It's really difficult to advocate for yourself against all that (and, as Endeavourer stated - emotionally draining if not completely ineffective).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for adding his option so l can post.

I am having this problem at the moment because of bullying by a fellow so called believer in my church who lives next door. Our pastor is refusing to call him out on bullying and trying to class it as a dispute requiring mediation. I am going to fight him over it by going to higher authorities regarding the safeguarding policy that says l should have been classed as high risk of abuse.

He never assessed me as such and there was no support for me when it happened.

Here is some good articles for Domestic Violence and bullying victims.

Articles

 

[mkgal1]

A big part of ministerial and pastoral training is Pastoral Care, because a pastor is not just a Bible teacher, but he is the shepherd of the people, and therefore needs to either be competent to counsel domestic violence victims, or have people on his staff who are.

I was going to post the same thing - I completely agree.

I was impressed by this church's commitment to the issue: ECC | Abuse Advocacy

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

I think this topic is best heeded with words from James:

Be slow to speak. Quick to listen. And slow to anger.

Domestic disagreements always involve elements that the hearer isn’t privy to. Not solely due to absence. But also the couple’s history and contributing factors that have brought things to a head.

We should avoid making judgments and provide support for both. Listening and prayer is a must as is safety and cooling for each.

Both should be encouraged to seek the Lord in prayer and given access to counselors, intercessors, and social resources as needed.

I have learned from two decades of unspeakable admissions (from others) of our ability to behave unfathomably behind closed doors. We maim those closest to us in ways we’d never treat a friend or stranger.

We are apt to rest on the consequence and pick sides. Viewing one party as the aggressor and the other as victim when the truth is probably worse. Mutual harm has occurred and displayed in different ways. Both are unloving.

The bible provides telling examples of character that reveal truths about our nature that’s best heeded. Men sin more frequently in ways that women don’t and the reverse is true.

We would do well to explore the warnings to our sex and its failings. Our missteps will frequently occur in these guises more than the others.

Above all, love must be the remedy for every hand and ear that encounters abuse of any sort. We must guard our hearts and search them for biases which prevent us from executing God’s will as He prefers.

Breakdowns in human relations are not a bandwagon we should leap upon. They are opportunities for prayer and reflection of our connections. We should consider if we’re loving our neighbor or falling short. Are we equally defiled and oblivious to our stench? I think in most cases the answer is yes.

And if we find it true for ourselves we should bear no surprise when our brethren fall short. Our fallibility makes us incapable of executing godliness perfectly. We will fail as leaders, parents, companions, employees, and friends.

Prayer and grace are the remedy. As is love and forgiveness.

This was the only wise post I saw on here, though admittedly I didn't read much past the first 2 pages. All I see in topics like this is women are victims, guilty until proven innocent, people diagnosing situations over a virtual medium with no actual evidence beyond potentially biased hearsay, claiming narcissism while acting like there isn't a reason in the world a woman could possibly incite anger (how narcissistic do you have to be?) and shooting off accusations like there's a recall on the ammunition.

These all lend themselves to the conclusion that most people who get involved in these topics are little more than virtue-signaling for women to see how shining the men's armour is and for women to show men that they are absolutely incapable of suffering even first-world problems lest they abandon ship. I wonder how surprised some Christians here would be to find out that Christ expected you to endure more suffering for sinful and/or lost people than you were willing. As far as I can see, Christ laid down His life and disciples laid down theirs, and all the early Christian's who didn't choose the privileges of decadence and pop-psychology escapisms. I would add qualifications, but I'd prefer not to water down a discussion that is already excessively pandering and presumptuous and looking for every reason to circumvent a reason to endure.

 

[Hazelelponi]

As a woman who has lived through horrific abuse from my former husband allow me to say a few things.

First, the abuse I lived through did not happen in a Christian environment, so I really don't know too much about how any church organisation handles (real) abuse but I think I should say a few things anyway..

My current husband, a Christian man, would never raise his voice to me let alone abuse me in any way. He treats me as a queen, and spoils me rotten.

So I do know how a true Christian man treats his wife, and it's not like a dog. He loves her as Christ does, and is ever forgiving, overlooking her many flaws in love.

A man who is beating his wife isn't following Christ, and a case can be made to treat such a man as an unbeliever.

The churches job is to teach scripture, and certainly there are some areas that aren't spoken of, or addressed because Christians are expected to act like Christians or be removed from the church.

Christians aren't supposed to marry non-Christians so many of these issues arise that the church is trying to deal with because they aren't removing people from church due to sin, and Christians are marrying non Christians.. or non Christians are marrying non Christians and asking the church to deal with the fall out from their unsaved behavior to one another.

This is causing a good measure of problems, from appearances, because the Biblical counselling people are seeking is for two saved Spirit filled Christians.

If my husband and I had to go for Christian counselling it would be a far different outlook and outcome than it would be for two unsaved people...

in short, what works for Christians doesn't work for those who aren't..

I think if a woman who is Christian has a truly abusive husband, she will have to consider prayerfully what to do. But if she decides to get counselling according to her faith, then she should expect to hear what's in the Book she professes to believe in and follow.

I don't think any woman should sit and take abuse - but I don't think every woman who says she's abused is actually abused either.

I think if a man raises his hand to his wife, her first move should be to find a domestic abuse shelter - and then she should pray for guidance from there on what she should do next.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This was originally posted in the marriage forum but I'm reposting here by request so everyone else may join the discussion too.

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

Here is one story of an abused wife who sought help from the church. I'm so very sad to say this is result is more typical than not. So, so sad.

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

"Love and Respect's" fingerprints are all over this part:

"However, Frers [the abused wife] said in 2012, she told Becky Willey that she was afraid to join her husband who had three months earlier moved to Fairfax, Virginia, to plant a church. Frers said Willey dismissed her concerns, saying that all she had to do was sleep with her husband and things would be fine.

Frers said this answer was typical for Becky Willey. Frers said in meetings with other pastors’ wives, Willey would teach wives that their number one role as wives was to give their husbands what no one else could—sex. Frers said Willey told wives that it was a sin for women to refuse their husbands sexually. This was one of the reasons Frers said she didn’t tell leaders at HBC Davenport about her husband’s sexual abuse. “I feared (my husband),” Frers said, “but I feared God even more.”

Since the majority of Church goers are not born again, it is tragic, but not all that surprising, if those men follow the world's ways with respect to women. Sometimes (queue outrage here) women are abusive, rarely physically, usually verbally. I speak from experience. The answer is not so easy. The solution absolutely is not to cover up the abuse. It has to be dealt with and it has to be one fairly and honestly. When the church chooses to be the church instead of weekend entertainment for unbelieving "believers", that will be a start. The fruit of the Spirit includes love. Love is nothing like the sloppy, romantic emotion that the world portrays. I don't remember the last time I heard a sermon on love. Yet it is the greatest quality. No one can love as God does, that is why we need the power of the Holy Spirit. Our (small) fellowship has a simple rule. Physical abuse is instant grounds for divorce. Verbal abuse indicates deep rooted issues of unforgiveness, bitterness and resentment. That can be resolved. If either person is not born again, I don't know how the issues can be resolved. It does happen but it is at the cost of the believer's spiritual growth.
No woman has to endure physical abuse. How anyone can say that they love and respect their wife, yet simultaneously abuse her, is hypocrisy of the highest order. The only level higher is the leadership that seeks to cover up abuse.

 

[JacksBratt]

Jack you are fortunate to be missing out on the sermons on this topic from many fundamental and evangelical churches. I could name quite a few famous pastors who ascribe to this, such as John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John MacArthur, Voddie Bauchman, the now disgraced James MacDonald etc. etc etc.

What did you think of the story in the link I attached in my original post?

Additionally there's a large industry of folks making books that enslave people to twisted perceptions of this theology rather than what is actually taught in the Bible who have made a lot of money selling their vain doctrines, such as the Eggerich's, Martha Peace, Gary Thomas, Michael and Debbie Pearl, etc etc.

Go to sermonaudio.com and search on Ephesians 5:22 messages to hear a pile of them.



I appreciate your comments here. You don't sound like a pig.



In my opinion, great marriages are possible regardless of your marital philosophy if
a)both partners bring the fruits of the Spirit to the relationship and forsake the fruits of darkness, and
b) neither spouse wants to benefit (or feels entitled to benefit) at the expense of the other.



You have a very nice neck of the woods, then.

Unfortunately this conclusion is a common thread in conservative, complimentarian circles and has been played out so many times that I no longer can feel that advising abused women to consult their pastors is safe.

Thank you for that kind response.

I think that the part you posted in blue is a sad and unbiblical outlook.. More like I would expect from centuries past or some sick cult.

I think that the world is struggling with a quest to find a place for men and women with the new roles that have been forced upon them with the need for dual income homes and what that does to child rearing and running a home.

I also think that Satan is working overtime to destroy the biblical sanctuary of marriage.. and it is working..

A very interesting book that I have mentioned on this site before is a book by Dr. Debbie L Cherry.. The Strong-Willed Wife : Dr Debbie L Cherry : 9781600060908
The Strong-Willed Wife : Using Your Personality to Honor God and Your Husband

I strongly believe that men are failing women as much as women are failing men in our marriages.. Men are abusing women and women are abusing men... It's never right and the damage can go on for decades.

Sadly, due to the powerful feelings and emotions connected to this topic... not many pastors, here, will attempt to tackle it.

I have been to several of the conferences for men "Promise Keepers" and they certainly did not pull punches when they were trying to get men back on track and solidly in the home where the father is so needed.

 

[LoricaLady]

In my experience after having a 10 year career as a Ministry of Justice domestic violence victim advisor, what you are suggesting would not work. Domestic violence is an issue of dominance where the abuser uses violence to dominate his partner or spouse. Our Courts have anger management counselling for DV offenders, but has a very low success rate, because the anger is a secondary emotion which has a primary cause.

True, that some abusers may have mental health or spiritual issues, but these are a minor cause of domestic violence. Sometimes the only way to fully protect a victim is to have the abuser given a custodial sentence and the victim put on a witness protection programme where she is relocated and given a totally new identity.

The trouble is, that the abuser when he gets out of prison, just goes and gets into another relationship and the abuse continues with another victim.

You say "That would not work" but I'm betting you have not seen it even considered.

Do you know what a deliverance ministry is? It is where you attack the devil and evil spirits. If you don't believe in that kind of thing I understand completely. I didn't use to either. Naturally in a secular world such a approach will not be taken seriously at all. I was speaking for those who work outside the secular world.

The same things are true for creative miracles. It seems you don't believe them, maybe even don't know about them.

Below is my best example of a creative medical miracle. It is proven to be true based on a lot of medical documentation and doctor reports.

Again, I don't really want to argue about it. That is pointless. Either you believe in miracles, and creative miracles in general, or you don't. As for deliverance, Messiah did tell us to cast out evil spirits and to heal the sick and raise the dead. Some people say "That was just for the apostolic age" though the Bible never says that, and many who have been healed miraculously disagree.

The faith healer, Kathryn Kuhlman, who is featured in the vid has had doctors attesting to instantaneous and creative miracles they saw for themselves, though they came with great skepticism to see the woman (now deceased.)

Oh, here is another vid where you can see a doctor - rated the best patient care doctor in Washington State at one time - saying "It is a miracle....a miracle...." that Dean Braxton, a patient of his in the ER, is alive and normal in every way. Why? Because Braxton had no heart beat and no respiration for 1 3/4 hours. Or, as the doc says, "He was really, really dead." And btw CBN investigated the medical records for 6 month before airing this. They also told Braxton that when they interviewed the doctor in the vid, he began to cry.

Yes, I believe that abusive men and women can be healed too. Messiah can do anything. But the faith for miracles and deliverance is minuscule, to say the least, in the body of believers and is rarely, if ever, addressed in the vast majority of Churches today.