Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[LoricaLady]

Not even the national abuse hotline agrees with this line of reasoning. Difficult yes, impossible no.
https://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/05/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/

P.S. I looked over your website. Honestly I don't see any data showing that abusers change, just a bunch of opinions and so on. Where is the data, with follow up studies, showing that this or that intervention caused permanent, or any, change?

Now I'm sure that sometimes abuse is an unusual thing with a person, not a pattern, and that such a person can stop the abuse. But for those who are deep into their patterns, I wouldn't bet a penny that they would change. Again, there is data showing NARCs, psychopaths and sociopaths do not have the same brain structure as normal people. How do you get that for them? With words? With medicine? No, only through a miracle, and those are extremely rare, no doubt.

 

[bèlla]

You're welcome; they were sincere.

I know they were. But I don’t think debate is the right spirit for your thread. And I know you understand what I mean.

I think God fashions us intentionally. Some attributes are lauded at the expense of others that are more commonplace. And when we celebrate what’s rare and call it beautiful and expected it creates problems.

Many of these books exemplify a countenance that is more innate than biblically inspired. I have lived that way before I came to Christ. But I would be remiss to call myself the norm. And I don’t believe He expects us to contort ourselves into something we are not to appease.

 

[Endeavourer]

@topher694 yes, that is a great resource for you to have. You're far more prepared with that background and resource than many.

One area I have noticed such things seem to lack is with the abuser. Yes, I realized it is rare for them to change, but I refuse to not try. With God all things are possible. Sometimes that seems to create a default position in people that they think I'm taking sides, which couldn't be further from the truth... I'm on God's side, end of story.

Yes, and I respect that in a pastor. Also, I would **expect** that in a pastor. However, would you say that the background you described gives you a healthier understanding of the boundaries of that than is typical?

On the few occasions I've had to minister to these guys, I've been very tough on them... That usually ends it, but at least I tried.

So you've found a similar dynamic of abusers usually ending the effort rather than change?

 

[JacksBratt]

This was originally posted in the marriage forum but I'm reposting here by request so everyone else may join the discussion too.

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

Here is one story of an abused wife who sought help from the church. I'm so very sad to say this is result is more typical than not. So, so sad.

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

"Love and Respect's" fingerprints are all over this part:

"However, Frers [the abused wife] said in 2012, she told Becky Willey that she was afraid to join her husband who had three months earlier moved to Fairfax, Virginia, to plant a church. Frers said Willey dismissed her concerns, saying that all she had to do was sleep with her husband and things would be fine.

Frers said this answer was typical for Becky Willey. Frers said in meetings with other pastors’ wives, Willey would teach wives that their number one role as wives was to give their husbands what no one else could—sex. Frers said Willey told wives that it was a sin for women to refuse their husbands sexually. This was one of the reasons Frers said she didn’t tell leaders at HBC Davenport about her husband’s sexual abuse. “I feared (my husband),” Frers said, “but I feared God even more.”

Interesting.

I have found, in my experience, that pastors avoid the whole "women submit to your husbands" altogether.


I found that they had no issue with dealing with abuse for either side, men abusing women or women abusing men... this is a no brainier these days and totally unacceptable. Any abuse is going to be easily condemned without worry of any of what you are suggesting.

I am very surprised by the text in blue... I cannot see any pastor saying that to a wife in my area of this planet.

Maybe it's our different vantage points, you being a woman and I being a man..

From where I stand, pastors, here anyway, won't go down the road of teaching the dreaded "biblical marriage" anymore.

Telling a woman, today, that she should submit, is not even on the table and few will tackle that subject.

I must say, before I get hammered by people assuming I am a "male chauvinist pig", that I disagree with any abuse. I don't think women should be barefoot and pregnant. Nor do I have any issue with them working, making more than their husbands (as mind did). I think whoever is home first gets supper on... all parties share duties around the house.. Men should know how to run the washer and dryer.... and how to scrub a dish and dry it.

I do know, however, that there is a perfect arrangement that God had for men and women in the marriage.. I saw it in my parents. My dad was the head.. my mother wanted for nothing. He protected her and she came first before anything. She was his queen. She respected him and he was the king.

We were raised to never fight or hit unless it was to protect you or someone else.. and never ever a female.

I'm sorry that your life has lead you to this mindset.. but... in my experience, this is not the case... not in my neck of the woods.

 

[Endeavourer]

She had been a victims advocate for over 20 years or something. She taught classes and trained teams in the church, which I received from. She now runs a ministry in the area I pastor, so aside from training we have a great local resource to send people to if needed.

Btw, this ^^ is the type of church resources I would definitely engage or recommend. Most churches don't have this type of background or understanding, particularly in the male centric ones who believe only males can be pastors and that males are superior in order to females and thus have 51% of the vote, or are entitled to "exercise their mature masculinity to make final decisions".

To clarify, I've met many complimentarians who are great husbands.

My post is specifically aimed at the dynamics and world view that some (not so great) complimentarians inflict on abused women which is unfortunately so pervasive in the complimentarian community that I don't dare to refer women to pastors in those circles anymore. I don't have exposure to or stories about to spiritual abuse along the line of the original post inflicted by pastors from egalatarian congregations. Interestingly.

I notice that you reference a female pastor in your organization so, to further clarify, I have not encountered any organizations with female pastors following the pattern I outlined in my original post, which specifically references the submission card and the L&R advice where giving your husband duty sex is "ministering" to him, as if sex is a "need" for the husband, and a "respect duty" for the wife.

 

[LoricaLady]

There is something that people often don't like to talk about in regard to abusers. One reason they don't change is because they enjoy abusing people. They get their kicks out of it. It seems they have a kind of deadness inside and that they feel alive through hurting others and having "power" over them. They don't want the deadness feeling, so they don't want to change.

Along with their illness they have a kind of emotional blindness where they really, truly, don't see others, or themselves, as they really are. Therefore that is another reason why they don't want to change, because they just don't "get it."

However, there is a secret part of them, per Dr. Carter and other mental health professionals - including some NARCs who have been honest in interviews - that feels terrible. He says they are crying inside, that they feel worthless and ashamed while they try to project that worthlessness and shame onto others. (Anyway that is true for NARCs, not necessarily true for sociopaths and not for psychopaths.) They deserve our compassion, but not, I think, our trust at all.

I pray for them. For miracles.

 

[topher694]

@topher694 yes, that is a great resource for you to have. You're far more prepared with that background and resource than many.


Yes, and I respect that in a pastor. Also, I would **expect** that in a pastor. However, would you say that the background you described gives you a healthier understanding of the boundaries of that than is typical?



So you've found a similar dynamic of abusers usually ending the effort rather than change?

Well, my background may give me a healthier idea of appropriate boundaries, but to be honest everything I learned seems like common sense to me, yet I know that isn't always the case for others, so maybe I started ahead of the curve... I don't know.

When I say I'm tough on them, I'm not mean, but I don't let them dodge, deflect or minimize. And if they do, I call them out on it. That usually ends it, yes. When you deal with people alot and practice discernment it isn't hard to spot someone trying to pull one over on you. Anytime someone is doing that and gets called on it chances are they will respond poorly, no matter the topic. But hopefully it plants good seeds for the future.

 

[packermann]

I hate to bring this up but I think this is the problem mostly with Protestant churches. It stems from the suppression of the veneration of Blessed Virgin Mary. See Marian Chivalry . The Catholic Church has always taught that the greatest creature in the whole universe is a woman, Mary. As a result, men in the Middle Ages had a high view of women. There are many women who are canonized as saints, and a few even became Doctors of the Church. Popes even visited these women for advice. All of this is due to the high view of Mary. Also, celibacy was especially advantageous to women. A woman could make an impact in the world and in the Church without a man.

Protestantism dethroned Mary from her rightful place in our hearts. What is left, then for the role of woman? There is nothing left but Bible verses that say Eve was the first to be deceived and therefore all women should be subjected to her husband. Male chivalry disappeared with Marian veneration and replaced with male chauvinism - especially among the clergy. Women only had value behind a man. A woman's duty was nothing else but to please a man. I believe we need to get back to seeing Mary as Queen of the Universe. Without Mary, I cannot see how conservative Protestants cannot have a high view of women.

 

[Endeavourer]

I have found, in my experience, that pastors avoid the whole "women submit to your husbands" altogether.

I am very surprised by the text in blue... I cannot see any pastor saying that to a wife in my area of this planet.

Jack you are fortunate to be missing out on the sermons on this topic from many fundamental and evangelical churches. I could name quite a few famous pastors who ascribe to this, such as John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John MacArthur, Voddie Bauchman, the now disgraced James MacDonald etc. etc etc.

What did you think of the story in the link I attached in my original post?

Additionally there's a large industry of folks making books that enslave people to twisted perceptions of this theology rather than what is actually taught in the Bible who have made a lot of money selling their vain doctrines, such as the Eggerich's, Martha Peace, Gary Thomas, Michael and Debbie Pearl, etc etc.

Go to sermonaudio.com and search on Ephesians 5:22 messages to hear a pile of them.

I must say, before I get hammered by people assuming I am a "male chauvinist pig"

I appreciate your comments here. You don't sound like a pig.

I do know, however, that there is a perfect arrangement that God had for men and women in the marriage.. I saw it in my parents. My dad was the head.. my mother wanted for nothing. He protected her and she came first before anything. She was his queen. She respected him and he was the king.

In my opinion, great marriages are possible regardless of your marital philosophy if
a)both partners bring the fruits of the Spirit to the relationship and forsake the fruits of darkness, and
b) neither spouse wants to benefit (or feels entitled to benefit) at the expense of the other.

I'm sorry that your life has lead you to this mindset.. but... in my experience, this is not the case... not in my neck of the woods.

You have a very nice neck of the woods, then.

Unfortunately this conclusion is a common thread in conservative, complimentarian circles and has been played out so many times that I no longer can feel that advising abused women to consult their pastors is safe.

 

[AlexDTX]

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

This is an important topic. My heart goes out to all the women who have abusive spouses. Any man who abuses his wife is not a disciple of Christ. He might call himself a Christian, and he could even be born again, but his is not following Jesus as a disciple.

The problem with pastors is that they run a system that is not in the New Testament. Yes, pastors are in the New Testament, but not the system. And when we read of pastors in the Old Testament they are usually kings and government leaders, not what we think of today.

Protection of the ol' boys reflects on the system being more important than the ministry of Christ.

Twisting Scriptures on submission is manipulation of the Scriptures which is a form of witch craft, in my opinion. In another thread I discussed marriage v feminism and the order of the Lord. Some misunderstood me. But submission is mutual. My wife is not my servant. She helps me be a better person, so I submit to her wisdom just as she submits to mine depending on the circumstance.

I don't know the books, but so much of Christianity today is based upon natural, worldly wisdom and not on the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for posting this topic, Endeavor.

 

[joshua 1 9]

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between.

Depends on the Church. If you go to a independent church where the pastor only has two years of school then you can not expect much out of them. In most main line churches they have a college degree before they are even qualified to go to seminary. So they are better trained and better qualified to council people. All in all it is a good deal because usually the counseling is free and does not cost anything.

 

[LoricaLady]

I hate to bring this up but I think this is the problem mostly with Protestant churches. It stems from the suppression of the veneration of Blessed Virgin Mary. See Marian Chivalry . The Catholic Church has always taught that the greatest creature in the whole universe is a woman, Mary. As a result, men in the Middle Ages had a high view of women. There are many women who are canonized as saints, and a few even became Doctors of the Church. Popes even visited these women for advice. All of this is due to the high view of Mary. Also, celibacy was especially advantageous to women. A woman could make an impact in the world and in the Church without a man.

Protestantism dethroned Mary from her rightful place in our hearts. What is left, then for the role of woman? There is nothing left but Bible verses that say Eve was the first to be deceived and therefore all women should be subjected to her husband. Male chivalry disappeared with Marian veneration and replaced with male chauvinism - especially among the clergy. Women only had value behind a man. A woman's duty was nothing else but to please a man. I believe we need to get back to seeing Mary as Queen of the Universe. Without Mary, I cannot see how conservative Protestants cannot have a high view of women.

There are zero Bible verses telling us to venerate Mary, or pray to her, etc. I'm sure she was a wonderful woman, but it is not true that the Bible does not give support to women other than through her.

The Commandment to not commit adultery, for both men and women, gave much protection to women, ditto the Commandment to honor both your mother and father. We see women prophets in the Old Testament. We see that Deborah was one who was of the very few good judges over Israel. Jael was a woman who tricked and killed a major enemy of Israel. Rahab helped the Israelites defeat Jericho. Lydia, like other first century women, helped evangelize believers. The first person to announce "He is risen" was a woman. The men didn't believe her at first!

"There is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female." That is what really gives a Christian women her equality. As a woman, to be frank, I would feel insulted if I thought the only reason men respected me was because of something having to do with Mary! I used to be Catholic as a child and have known many Catholics. I never saw any men or women who were treating women rightly because of anything at all having to do with Mary, protestant or Catholic.

I believe you will find no statistics that those who are Catholic are any more or less likely to abuse women that those who are not.

And now I am going to leave this string. It has been interesting, but we have all been debating and we're not 'spozed to.

 

[Endeavourer]

Depends on the Church. If you go to a independent church where the pastor only has two years of school then you can not expect much out of them. In most main line churches they have a college degree before they are even qualified to go to seminary. So they are better trained and better qualified to council people. All in all it is a good deal because usually the counseling is free and does not cost anything.

Thanks for your comment Joshua.

The church described in the article I linked is a megachurch with multiple campuses and had 'qualified' counselors on staff to handle marriage counseling.

Such counseling comes with a very high cost even if the price is free.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. It has been interesting, but we have all been debating and we're not 'spozed to.

We aren't supposed to create threads in this forum for the purpose of giving advice either - yet that's exactly what the OP did..

likely mods will move this thread soon..

 

[Endeavourer]

And now I am going to leave this string. It has been interesting, but we have all been debating and we're not 'spozed to.

Thank you for all of your comments and participation.

I would categorize the participation as a great topical discussion rather than a "debate".

I felt everyone has been respectful and have appreciated other perspectives. @topher694 offered a perspective I hadn't considered before, concerning egalitarian minded churches.

Many thanks to all who chimed in!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This was originally posted in the marriage forum but I'm reposting here by request so everyone else may join the discussion too.

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

Here is one story of an abused wife who sought help from the church. I'm so very sad to say this is result is more typical than not. So, so sad.

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

"Love and Respect's" fingerprints are all over this part:

"However, Frers [the abused wife] said in 2012, she told Becky Willey that she was afraid to join her husband who had three months earlier moved to Fairfax, Virginia, to plant a church. Frers said Willey dismissed her concerns, saying that all she had to do was sleep with her husband and things would be fine.

Frers said this answer was typical for Becky Willey. Frers said in meetings with other pastors’ wives, Willey would teach wives that their number one role as wives was to give their husbands what no one else could—sex. Frers said Willey told wives that it was a sin for women to refuse their husbands sexually. This was one of the reasons Frers said she didn’t tell leaders at HBC Davenport about her husband’s sexual abuse. “I feared (my husband),” Frers said, “but I feared God even more.”

I think that church pastors and ministers should receive compulsory training on how to counsel domestic violence victims and the procedure to involve the authorities, as part of their ministry qualfications; and when a church calls a minister or pastor, one of the compulsory conditions is that the pastor have that appropriate training.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think that church pastors and ministers should receive compulsory training on how to counsel domestic violence victims and the procedure to involve the authorities, as part of their ministry qualfications; and when a church calls a minister or pastor, one of the compulsory conditions is that the pastor have that appropriate training.

Pastors go to school to learn theology.. that is their specialty and their training.. Any advice and counselling they give will necessarily be according to Scripture..

If people don't like what the scriptures teach, they can always take it up with God.

 

[LoricaLady]

Thank you for all of your comments and participation.

I would categorize the participation as a great topical discussion rather than a "debate".

I felt everyone has been respectful and have appreciated other perspectives. @topher694 offered a perspective I hadn't considered before, concerning egalitarian minded churches.

Many thanks to all who chimed in!!

Yes, people have been respectful. Yes, I guess "discussion" would, usually, be more appropriate than "debate."

As Hazleponi said, this string will probably be moved to another forum, though I won't participate due to time.

 

[Endeavourer]

Pastors go to school to learn theology.. that is their specialty and their training.. Any advice and counselling they give will necessarily be according to Scripture..

If people don't like what the scriptures teach, they can always take it up with God.

What were your feelings about the situation in the article included in my initial post? To your perspective, was the wife was counseled and treated according to Scripture?

It is at:
Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

 

[LoricaLady]

P.S. Blessings to all!