Why I Don't Believe In Atheism's Creation Myth

[Doveaman]

Doveaman needs to take some philosophy classes. Dude - if God KNOWS the future, how can it change?! If the future cannot change, our choices are meaningless! Do you even get what anyone is trying to tell you?

I do get it.

What I don't get is how our choices are meaningless simply because God KNOWS the future. Do you even know how God is capable of Knowing the future?

What if the Omnipresent God is in the future observing what we are freely choosing to do in the future? Would our choices have meaning then?

And what if the Omnipresent God know now what we will choose to do in the future because He already observed what we chose to do in the future?

This would mean that God's foreknowledge of our choices is based on what He is observing now and in the future and does in no way affect the freedom of those choices.

 

[driewerf]

Well, I suspect the Acts verse was referencing one of the books of the Torah.

But the Acts were written after Jesus' life.

 

[MoonLancer]

I see what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't really hold up. If we are only a series of chemical reactions, these chemical reactions control us we wouldn't control them. This means that any act done by a man is just his own physiological chemistry makeup compelling him to do whatever.

There couldn't be any choice, its just how he/she is.

Well not arguing if the premise of this post, that having everything that we are be chemical reactions somehow takes away free will,

Your argument in turn is flawed because it simply asserts it cant be true because you dont want it to be.

That said the exact same thing could be said for the soul which you simply attribute to the chemical reactions in your brain you cannot fully comprehend.

example: the soul controls us, we dont control our soul. If everyone we do is because of a soul it takes away our free will.

If you think that doesn't make sense you should reread your own post.

 

[MoonLancer]

Like you would know.

"There is no firm agreement among neurologists as to the number of senses because of differing definitions of what constitutes a sense." - Same Source

So you think faith is neurological? Show me.

 

[sandwiches]

He will not convince them, the heat will. There's a difference.

Truly warped, indeed.

"It wasn't me who killed the man, your honor; it was the fire I started."

 

[MoonLancer]

If god created you knowing which choices you will make, then he created you to make those choices. What you're saying is that god gives you the illusion of having a choice, when, in fact, you don't.

This is exactly why original sin is such a lie. Think about it.

 

[Cabal]

But the Acts were written after Jesus' life.

Right, but the Torah wasn't. It's a retroactive interpretation of a very nonspecific phrase though.

 

[AV1611VET]

Right, but the Torah wasn't. It's a retroactive interpretation of a very nonspecific phrase though.

John 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

'Those men' would disagree with you.

 

[Cabal]

John 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

'Those men' would disagree with you.

I'm sure they would. Doesn't change the fact that it is very easy to retroactively interpret such a vague prediction - hardly conclusive, however.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sure they would. Doesn't change the fact that it is very easy to retroactively interpret such a vague prediction - hardly conclusive, however.

How vague is this?

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

And before your reply with the standard rhetoric, qv:

This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2Ki 23:15-20.

 

[Doveaman]

John 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

'Those men' would disagree with you.

The apostle Peter would also disagree, the one whom Cabal is objecting to:

Christianity was also predicted:

"For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you.'" - Acts 3:22.

Well, I suspect the Acts verse was referencing one of the books of the Torah.

That said, such vague "prophecies" are hardly impressive. I mean..."a prophet like me"? If that's a reference to Jesus, then it's fairly obtuse, seeing as Jesus was the incarnation of a deity. Bit different.

Acts 3:18-24:

18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you — even Jesus.

21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

24 "Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days."

 

[Cabal]

Peter would also disagree, the one whom Cabal is objecting to:

Probably.

And yet again, this still doesn't change the fact that this is a retroactive interpretation.

 

[Doveaman]

Truly warped, indeed.

"It wasn't me who killed the man, your honor; it was the fire I started."

Sure, blame the Judge for condemning the serial killer to death.

Truly warped, indeed.

 

[sandwiches]

Sure, blame the Judge for condemning the serial killer to death.

Truly warped, indeed.

Hey... I'm not the one making up excuses for my deity's atrocities.

 

[Doveaman]

If god created you knowing which choices you will make, then he created you to make those choices.

This is exactly why original sin is such a lie. Think about it.

I think the quote above should have read: "If god created you knowing which choices you will make, then he created you knowing which choices you will make."

Unless you are claiming that to know the future is to determine the future, a claim yet to be demonstrated.

Know = Determine. Please demonstrate.

 

[AV1611VET]

Probably.

And yet again, this still doesn't change the fact that this is a retroactive interpretation.

And what did Jesus do to the two atheists on the road to Emmaus?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And why were they atheists?

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

 

[Cabal]

And what did Jesus do to the two atheists on the road to Emmaus?

Yeah...shame they never say WHAT that was.

And why were they atheists?

AHAHAHAHAHA WHAT

 

[MoonLancer]

I think the quote above should have read: "If god created you knowing which choices you will make, then he created you knowing which choices you will make."

Unless you are claiming that to know the future is to determine the future, a claim yet to be demonstrated.

Know = Determine. Please demonstrate.

Knowing the future means its determined. its really simple.

If God knows the future and creates man in a specific way knowing all events that will transpire, It is a determined event. To be otherwise God would have to not be all knowing.

Likewise If I was all knowing, I would know every single consequence for every action i like. Knowing these consequences makes me responsible for the chain reaction of events.

For example If i hold a gun to your head and pull the trigger EVERYONE understands the consequences of that action. The causality will result in you taking damage or your death.

But lets say I understand cause and effect so well that i could bump into someone who was walking in the street to dely them for some reason. Through a long chain of events this leads to your death. I know that if i bump into this man that your death is curtain and absolute. yet i bump into him anyway.

Now lets say i dont know that by bumping into this man it will lead to a chain of events that will cause your death.

Is their a difference? Absolutely

Is god responsible for all the souls he send to hell? Absolutely

Is he responsible for first sin? Absolutely.

Why? because he is all knowing and all powerful and he chose to crate the world as it is, therefore he is responsible.

what happened was when people made up an all powerful all knowing all loving god they really didn't think it through.

 

[Doveaman]

Knowing the future means its determined.

You are claiming that God knowing our future means God determined our future, but you haven’t demonstrated how this is so; you are just claiming it to be so.

its really simple.

It’s not simple simply because you claim it to be so, especially when describing the Eternal God.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." - John 8:58.

To be the Eternal God is to always exists and to exists outside all relations of space-time, having no past or future. God only has a present. God is always present.

"before Abraham was born, I AM."- John 8:58.

If God knows the future and creates man in a specific way knowing all events that will transpire, It is a determined event. To be otherwise God would have to not be all knowing.

You still haven’t explained why knowing means determined. All you are doing is repeating the same claim.

Likewise If I was all knowing, I would know every single consequence for every action i like. Knowing these consequences makes me responsible for the chain reaction of events.
For example If i hold a gun to your head and pull the trigger EVERYONE understands the consequences of that action. The causality will result in you taking damage or your death.
But lets say I understand cause and effect so well that i could bump into someone who was walking in the street to dely them for some reason. Through a long chain of events this leads to your death. I know that if i bump into this man that your death is curtain and absolute. yet i bump into him anyway.
Now lets say i dont know that by bumping into this man it will lead to a chain of events that will cause your death.
Is their a difference? Absolutely

This does not deny the man a free-will, nor does it deny me a free-will. All it does is to create circumstances that lead to my death. Both the man and I still had the freedom to choose to accept God or to reject Him.

If your analogy says what you are trying to make it say, then God would know who to “bump into” in order to create the long chain of events that would lead to you becoming a Christian. The reason you are not a Christian is because you freely chose not to be one, and God is not forcing you to be one. To force you to be a Christian would defeat God's own purpose of creating you in His own image.

Is god responsible for all the souls he send to hell? Absolutely

This is a baseless claim on your part, and has no relevance to free-will.

Is he responsible for first sin? Absolutely.

This is a baseless claim on your part, and has no relevance to free-will.

Why? because he is all knowing and all powerful and he chose to crate the world as it is, therefore he is responsible.

Again, to know is not to determine, especially when free-will is involved.

God is indeed responsible for creating the world, but He is not responsible for creating it as it is; man is responsible for creating it as it is by freely choosing to sin.

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. - Gen 1:31.

It is man who freely chose to make a mess of what God had originally created very good.

what happened was when people made up an all powerful all knowing all loving god they really didn't think it through.

If He is an “all powerful all knowing all loving” God, then all you are claiming to be impossible would be possible: “For nothing is impossible with God.” - Luke 1:37.

I think you are the one who really didn’t think it through.

 

[Son of the King]

I really dont want to get too involved in this because I see unless a response is done quickly some posts get lost in the thread unanswered and I really dont have the time to hang around. I Just came back to veiw this thread and I see free will as oppossed to predetermined is still being debated. It seems there are many perspectives on this, and honesly one can not really prove without a doubt one or the other. If we consider time and God. Through His Word we see God is not restricted to operating in the realm of time. God inhabits all aspects of time, past, present and future. This is a difficult concept to understand and it brings me back to His Word. If God has predetermined all our choices then how can He love us unconditionally? We now have conditions. Without faith it is impossible to please God. What does faith mean then? There are so many more problems. If God has programmed our every action then most all of His Word would make no sense. He is now an accessory to every sin. What god is this?