Why I Disagree With The Racial Divide

Ana the Ist

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Or, why I believe we are headed in the wrong direction...and the possibility of a corrective course. This will be long.

First, I realize that perhaps my posts on here are misunderstood. People are told narratives that are easy to believe because they are simplistic and those around them profess to believe the same. Perhaps it's because of my early tendency towards atheism that I view such people with suspicion and disdain wrongly. It's easier to be told what to think than to think hard, or critically, with adherence to reason and rationality. I'm guilty of it too...if such guilt exists.

Regarding racism I'm fortunate enough to have grown up with parents who expressed disdain for racists and taught me that judging people by such superficial characteristics was inherently wrong. I can, without shame, repeat the most racist thing I've ever heard my father say (though he didn't realize it) and when I corrected him around age 15, he never said it again. My mother for all the years I knew her never made a racist judgment or statement until the day she died. I'm fortunate to have grown up this way, and if anything, I made distorted assumptions that my experience was typical. I heard racist statements at the houses of friends who were white, asian, and black and many times my friends, their children, were ashamed enough to apologize for it. It always looked like progress.

That's not to say that the other didn't occur as well. Many times those same friends or others have tried to justify those beliefs as if they reflected something real. I did have hope though, that in time, more parents like mine would emerge and our society would be better off for it. I figured this was the way of societal progress and it was always slow....rules can change fast, but perception changes slowly.

That's not to say I was unaware of violent racists or cultural undercurrents that were racially motivated. I knew they existed, I had seen them in person infrequently, and on tv occasionally.

I wanted to explain this so you understand where I'm coming from as a formal student of politics and political philosophy and history, and an avid reader and informal student on culture, history, philosophy, psychology, and the myriad other topics that I have never stopped trying to learn more about.

On racism then. Racism is painfully simple in its construction and only slightly more complex in its expression. It's an idea of characteristics that superficial being entwined with characteristics that aren't. To say a black man is lazy because he is black would be racist. To say that you can identify a Jewish person by the size of their nose is racist. To say a white man is successful because he is white is indeed, racist. There is no assumption of an individual that can be made by appearance of skin tone, lip size, eye shape or any other physical characteristics that are factually correct. It stands to reason then that without factual data, no such statements can be true of such groups. It would not be racist to say that Jewish people are wealthier, on average, than the average US person. Last I checked, they are. It would be wrong to say this is so because they are Jewish....or some moral defect like greed....or to assume any such thing about any Jewish person. The fact of the group may exist as an average but to abstract from the fact some other causal assumptions is a grave mistake. There are far too many possibilities for the fact to ever be certain of the cause. No judgement of the individual based upon such reasoning can be justified.

I understand why this can be difficult to avoid....merely looking for facts about racial groups tends to cause people to associate the two as connected inherently.

Still...it's a pretty simple concept. It's easily proven false. It's fundamentally no different from any other unjustified association of unrelated characteristics. I used to assume that people with southern accents were less intelligent...same with many blonde girls. We can all be guilty of these assumptions but they rarely rise to the level of shame fulness unless we let them rule our behavior.

That's my view. It's a type of wrongly formed association of unrelated superficial characteristics. As such, it's hard to take any professed racial expert seriously. There's nothing really to be an expert on other than perhaps it's history....or the pattern seeking biological basis for it in our brains.

That's not the concern of our time though. The concern is the potential damage it causes to our society and lives. On this I've given considerable thought. I would say that...

1. In everyday interpersonal interactions it can be harmful and degrading. Particularly so if the racial beliefs become widespread or generally accepted as true...or if the target holds dear some aspects of their racial identity (which itself carries it's own problems). Therefore there is no racism towards any group that is acceptable or justified.

2. In practice, if not in policy or law, it limits opportunities and potentials. It damages entire communities. It tends to be a result of #1 being allowed to proliferate. It's difficult to deal with if it's undetected as a deliberate expression of racism.

3. In policy or law, it's most harmful. It limits the opportunities and potentials of entire racial groups. It damages the health and wellness of entire generations.

Understanding these things I believe we can understand how to properly interact with each other. Attempting to disregard these characteristics with the grace and understanding that we will inevitably fail, as all people do, from time to time. When such beliefs are found, an understanding of their origin, and an understanding of why they are wrong is the ideal for moving forward.

There has been a rather vast a different set of ideas put forth lately that I disagree with. The reasons why they have been put forth I can only speculate on but I admit, its speculation...and welcome anyone who disagrees and feels they can rationally explain why my views are wrong.

It seems to have started with the idea that a better definition of racism was necessary, though nobody ever explained why. It was a prejudice + privilege sort of vague definition that no one ever really used apart from attempting to justify the racial beliefs of some towards others. Nobody really used this new definition either, and continued using the old, and I am certain of this.

If anyone were to pass a racist statement written on a wall, for example, and identify it as such....without knowledge of who wrote it. Without that knowledge, no analysis of power or privilege occurs. This was never a useful or good definition for any reason other than the one I stated above.

Still, it proliferated, and in doing so it effectively signaled a "green light" for anyone racist to express their beliefs against white people (including white people) and eventually other races (as long as it's not expressed by white people). This hasn't been helpful for race relations...but it can be.

The new definition has been abandoned for obvious reasons. Non-white people who have been openly racist towards whites they have some power over would be rightly deemed racist and the definition falls apart. New definitions have been proposed since but no one understands them. They're too vague to make racism identifiable.

At best, the idea of systemic racism seems to be an attempt to reconcile the previous definition while maintaining its original purpose of justifying racial hatred towards anyone of "privilege". It does this by being vague, and demanding a rigidly dogmatic viewpoint of equating a status of victimhood with moral righteousness....and therefore justifies hatred, disdain, envy, and even violence.

I had some small hope that the violent attacks on asians recently, by multiple racists, would enable some reflection and reconsideration of race that led to a reconciliation...maybe one closer to my views. Instead, the narrative bends again for blatantly political reasons...to blame white people. There is no amount of reconciliation or reflection to correct this view....because it's inherently racist.

The attempts to do so now are concerning. Indoctrination of this racist viewpoint in school is vile and reprehensible. Passing laws and policies that treat whites as less than other races, because they don't work as hard, or don't claim victimhood is inexcusable. It's causing a reactionary increase in white nationalist supremacy that continues to fuel the false political narrative. It's threatening to erase the difficult decades of progress we've made.

The cause of this seems directly related to the left's embracing identity politics as demographics shift....and unfortunately, many of their most vocal and politically motivated are racist.

The future of this course is ugly, violent, and unfortunately in the best case, I think we'd simply have to come full circle back to the view of racism I described above. I think there's a possibility of reconciliation now....but it's not easy. We cannot hope to eliminate racism entirely, and we certainly cannot hope to create a just and equitable society by indoctrinating children and discriminating against whites in law.

Understandably, the focus of racial discussion has been entirely on white people and the socio-cultural beliefs that racism has influenced and it's results. We have, after all, been the primary source of it and it's harm historically. That's a fact. However, I can safely say that I've never seen the widespread cultural acceptance of and attempts to justify racism against whites like I have any other group in my life. In the majority of my years, racist attitudes and beliefs have been discouraged and shamed. It's sad to see so many racists unashamedly profess their hatred.

The reasons I believe the current course will fail are many but to put it simply, you cannot claim victimhood while standing on someone's neck. You cannot sit a seat of power that was given to you by discrimination and claim righteousness. We risk teaching a generation of white people that they must atone for crimes they aren't guilty of through rules and laws that deny them the same humanity they have.

It risks a backlash of bitter, beaten down whites with a legitimate grievance of injustice and ultimately I don't expect them to be gentle or understanding. Ultimately, I'd expect them to see justification for their own hatred and demands of power and wealth and privilege to follow.

This is avoidable I think, if we are able to do something difficult. If we can speak openly and honestly, regardless of race, would be a start. I do this and get chastised for it so I understand why it's difficult. I think if we call out all racism and stop pretending its harmless because of its scope, power dynamics, or target.

If we start there, I think we can begin a careful, gentle, and understanding examination of racism in non-white communities. It will be difficult, but I see no other way to progress. We can't endlessly redefine racism to avoid it, we cannot hope to eliminate the damage of racism without it. A lot of good and progress has been made in the white community by it...and I understand that it can seem shameful....so we avoid it. It need not be. As an aspect and fault common to all humanity there's only shame in hiding or justifying it.

I welcome any thoughts, criticisms, and disagreements so long as they are constructed with a consideration of my viewpoint...and not a personal attack.

I understand that sometimes people read my posts, make assumptions, and take offense. I don't apologize for it. I think you deserve the truth of my views out of respect, and don't see any value in platitudes. We may disagree, but I wish no one any harm. Your assumptions are your own.

Thanks for reading.
 

Tanj

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Well a few points. Firstly you seem to switch ad-hoc from individual anecdote to group observation and conflate the two as equivalent (as an example, some white guy being successful is a very different observation to white guys on average are more successful than black guys). Secondly, there's quite an emphasis on stuff that happened while you were alive as more important and unconnected to events that happened when you were not. Thirdly, your decision to off hand dismiss various experts seems related to point 1, and a lack of understanding of statistics. Fourthly...you seem to think people are "standing on the necks" of white people, that's not accurate, and finally there are no "beaten down whites", unless the removal of privilege not granted to others constitutes a beat down, which it does not.

If that was too personal I apologize, but you did create a thread which was all about you and your opinion, and it's not easy to disentangle the two.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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At best, the idea of systemic racism seems to be an attempt to reconcile the previous definition while maintaining its original purpose of justifying racial hatred towards anyone of "privilege". It does this by being vague, and demanding a rigidly dogmatic viewpoint of equating a status of victimhood with moral righteousness....and therefore justifies hatred, disdain, envy, and even violence.

The privilege thing really gets me. Especially when it comes to the positive affects of something like being raised in a stable two parent home. That has a racial equity divide, but if you go back a few decades you can find that a of that disparity came from the social engineering of the Great Society.


Their also is often no accountability that is really expected on the other side. A few years ago, I was working as a security guard in Charlotte area to make ends meet. I was at this strip mall that was near the section 8 housing and their was lots of problems going on because of it, especially theft. I recall being harassed by these gangs of black youths for trying to enforce company policies. They got mad at me and called me an N word and not in a friendly way. I realized how backwards the situation was, because if I did that to them, I would probably be seen as some kind of terrible racist pariah etc. Yet they can do that to me, have no respect for elders etc. and that is OK.


But it was easy to see these pubescent kids were going to have a problematic future ahead of themselves. Because they were doing things like staying out late on a school night hanging out with their friends loitering on the premise, rather than being at home studying or going to bed early for the next day. And I noticed they deliberately always left out all their trash (fast food bags, soda cans) out, they made a point to leave it where they sat no matter how close a trash can was to them, it was almost like a animal marking its territory.

Anyway how can these kids have a future when people always make the problems from having a lack of discipline about racism rather than the obvious?
 
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LockeeDeck

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You cite a changing definition of racism, can you pull out those multiple definitions and go over them, maybe label them for discussion?

I know you have them in the OP but it's hard to talk about something if there are multiple definitions floating around.
 
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LockeeDeck

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You rightfully point out that there is non white racism and that it should be examined but as you also point out whites have been the primary source for a long time. Even today whites make up the majority of the population and the majority of the positions of power. So of course any contemporary discussion of racism will have that as a backdrop and any historical discussion will have it front and center.

With this in mind you seem to equate CRT to a new type of Jim Crow for whites and that is causing a backlash and giving a rise to white supremacy. You would have to justify the harm of CRT because otherwise it just sounds like a white person complaining about past racist actions of white people being taught.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Well a few points. Firstly you seem to switch ad-hoc from individual anecdote to group observation and conflate the two as equivalent (as an example, some white guy being successful is a very different observation to white guys on average are more successful than black guys).

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or I worded it poorly.

I was trying to elaborate how easy it is to take a fact like "Jewish people are on average more wealthy" and wrongly create an assumption that would be racist about a Jewish individual or a group of Jewish people.

I think it's a trap that comes from our over tendency to compare ourselves with others.

Secondly, there's quite an emphasis on stuff that happened while you were alive as more important and unconnected to events that happened when you were not.

This is stated so often that it's become bizarre to me. I'll state it as plainly as I can.

All of history is the result of a causal chain of events. This is something I have understood for so long that when I hear people say it as if it's some revelation I am not sure how to address it...

It's blatantly obvious.

Thirdly, your decision to off hand dismiss various experts seems related to point 1, and a lack of understanding of statistics.

What do you think I don't understand about statistics?

Fourthly...you seem to think people are "standing on the necks" of white people, that's not accurate, and finally there are no "beaten down whites", unless the removal of privilege not granted to others constitutes a beat down, which it does not.

Then you disagree that the three expressions of racism don't progress from 1 to 2 to 3?

Or are you unaware that this administration is crafting legislation specifically discriminating against white people?

If that was too personal I apologize, but you did create a thread which was all about you and your opinion, and it's not easy to disentangle the two.

No....I feel tired of being misunderstood entirely and I appreciate your input. I don't think I'm perfect.
 
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Kettriken

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The unfortunate repercussion of racial oppression is that it must be addressed along racial lines. Many people will then hear racial terminology and conflate that with the same racist beliefs that initially caused the issues. Perhaps once we have addressed this past (and present) we can move on from the racial paradigm as primarily important. Until then, simply identifying those who have been harmed and conversely those who have committed harm is born out of necessity not a desire to perpetuate racist beliefs.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You cite a changing definition of racism, can you pull out those multiple definitions and go over them, maybe label them for discussion?

I know you have them in the OP but it's hard to talk about something if there are multiple definitions floating around.

Probably....

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others

That's close to the most generalized version of the definition everyone actually uses....despite what they seem to claim. The only thing I'd ad is that hate or ideas of superiority aren't necessary. An example of this can be "black people are great dancers".

The newer definition I encountered probably over a decade ago is....

Prejudice plus power - Wikipedia

Nobody actually does this. There's no real examination of power dynamics. In fact, the relationship if power is reduced to a racial category and nothing more. The definition ironically rests on racist assumptions. Regardless, this has been scrapped...because when a minority race holds power or authority, obviously they fit the definition. To keep the definition solely on the shoulders of white people....it shifted again to....

Systemic racism. I can site definitions but they don't really make sense. It will say that a system, like the justice system, is itself racist. In essence it's anthropomorphized. Without any racist people, or laws, or policies, it's as if the system itself has grown a mind and it hates a certain race.

I find it dumb beyond comprehension. I've tried in vain to see if anyone who uses the term can explain it....to no avail. However, the one consistency it holds is that if the system was created by white people...it's systemically racist. Nobody would, for example, claim that the rap industry is systemically racist regardless of any over or blatantly discriminatory behavior therein.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You rightfully point out that there is non white racism and that it should be examined but as you also point out whites have been the primary source for a long time. Even today whites make up the majority of the population and the majority of the positions of power. So of course any contemporary discussion of racism will have that as a backdrop and any historical discussion will have it front and center.

Oh no...not a long time by the view of history. It's only been out in the open and freely expressed for maybe 10 years....which is short by historical standards.

In my opinion though, this isn't a reason to minimize it. I believe the opposite, it's a good time to examine it, scrutinize it, and try to solve it. I fear the repercussions of the backlash that seems to inevitably follow the damage such ideas cause.

With this in mind you seem to equate CRT to a new type of Jim Crow for whites and that is causing a backlash and giving a rise to white supremacy. You would have to justify the harm of CRT because otherwise it just sounds like a white person complaining about past racist actions of white people being taught.

Oh no...I have absolutely no objection to the past of racism in history or even present day being taught...as long as it's done factually.

What I would object to is the teaching of the idea of the guilt of past deeds is the obligation of those today for nothing more than being the same race.

It's an absurd notion that has it's roots in the dogma of original sin more than any real notion of justice. If a man murders, serves 30 years of a 40 year sentence and dies in prison....we don't take his son and imprison him for 10 years. More absurd would be the idea of just grabbing someone of any race and forcing them to serve the sentence.
 
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Tanj

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Not sure if you're agreeing with me or I worded it poorly.

Not sure the second effort helped, sorry. However...
There are far too many possibilities for the fact to ever be certain of the cause.

Is just not true, at least not in all cases. For example:
Causal inference - Wikipedia.

As I said, some of what you say stems from a lack of understanding of admittedly advanced statistics.


This is stated so often that it's become bizarre to me. I'll state it as plainly as I can.

All of history is the result of a causal chain of events. This is something I have understood for so long that when I hear people say it as if it's some revelation I am not sure how to address it...

It's blatantly obvious.

I pointed out that

However, I can safely say that I've never seen the widespread cultural acceptance of and attempts to justify racism against whites like I have any other group in my life.

Is very you-centric. You pay lip service to events before your time but everything else is mired in the now and disconnected from the history that caused it. There's no evidence you find that in anyway obvious, blatant or otherwise, I certainly see no evidence of you accepting that racism is an intergenerational thing that has had deep roots that go well beyond what you see now.

Then you disagree that the three expressions of racism don't progress from 1 to 2 to 3?

I have never believed in the slippery slope fallacy, or any other fallacy, for that matter.

Or are you unaware that this administration is crafting legislation specifically discriminating against white people?

I'm aware that I disagree with your definition of "discriminating against white people"
 
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Ana the Ist

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The unfortunate repercussion of racial oppression is that it must be addressed along racial lines. Many people will then hear racial terminology and conflate that with the same racist beliefs that initially caused the issues.

Can you give me an example of the racial terminology you're talking about?
 
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Kettriken

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Can you give me an example of the racial terminology you're talking about?

One thing that comes to mind is the recent attempt to rectify years of passing over black farmers for funding assistance. Now they are trying to fix this disparity, but to do so they must specify funds for marginalized minorities. White farmers are crying foul, though they (statistically) have received special (and prejudicial) funding for years. No one means to imply that white farmers do not struggle, just that black farmers have not had access to the the same "leg up."

This sort of language on its face could be deemed racial or even racist, but in the broader context is a genuine attempt to right a wrong. How else could it be done without using racial distinctions when the wrong was initially done along racial lines?
 
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Ana the Ist

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One thing that comes to mind is the recent attempt to rectify years of passing over black farmers for funding assistance. Now they are trying to fix this disparity, but to do so they must specify funds for marginalized minorities. White farmers are crying foul, though they (statistically) have received special (and prejudicial) funding for years. No one means to imply that white farmers do not struggle, just that black farmers have not had access to the the same "leg up."

When you say "fix a disparity"....what exactly does that mean?

I understand what a disparity is. There's a disparity between the number of white and black farmers in regards to themselves and their respective races. There's also a disparity between young and old farmers, male and female farmers, gay lesbian and straight farmers.

In my mind, the presence of a disparity is normal in nearly every situation (and is viewed as such by anyone that studies statistical methods between groups of people). It is not of in itself a problem to fix.

Now, I would assume that you see it differently and I'm curious why?
 
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Kettriken

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When you say "fix a disparity"....what exactly does that mean?

I understand what a disparity is. There's a disparity between the number of white and black farmers in regards to themselves and their respective races. There's also a disparity between young and old farmers, male and female farmers, gay lesbian and straight farmers.

In my mind, the presence of a disparity is normal in nearly every situation (and is viewed as such by anyone that studies statistical methods between groups of people). It is not of in itself a problem to fix.

Now, I would assume that you see it differently and I'm curious why?

It is important to not conflate disparity with difference. Of course there will be a difference in the numbers of black, white, or any other group of people when it comes to farming. Even a basic meaning of disparity can be innocuous. Something that is unequal, or not the same. The concern comes when the disparity occurs when all else is equal. When loan approval or subsidies occur at different rates or time frames and this difference, or disparity, can be correlated with race (or gender, or class, etc.) we should root out the underlying causes and seek to rectify the situation.

Statistics are tricky things, as I'm sure you well know. Sometimes averages don't show the whole picture, sometimes case studies don't. What is the harm in erring on the side of the downtrodden?
 
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LockeeDeck

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Nobody actually does this. There's no real examination of power dynamics. In fact, the relationship if power is reduced to a racial category and nothing more. The definition ironically rests on racist assumptions. Regardless, this has been scrapped...because when a minority race holds power or authority, obviously they fit the definition. To keep the definition solely on the shoulders of white people....it shifted again to....

Systemic racism. I can site definitions but they don't really make sense. It will say that a system, like the justice system, is itself racist. In essence it's anthropomorphized. Without any racist people, or laws, or policies, it's as if the system itself has grown a mind and it hates a certain race.

Wouldn't systemic racism be an outgrowth of prejudice plus power though?

For example a police man is prejudice against blacks and stops them more often, as a result he finds more black criminals, ignoring of course all the people he stopped that were not criminals. From this he trains other police to do the same and police who were not inherently prejudice follow a culture. From this a system of racism is established.

I find it dumb beyond comprehension. I've tried in vain to see if anyone who uses the term can explain it....to no avail. However, the one consistency it holds is that if the system was created by white people...it's systemically racist. Nobody would, for example, claim that the rap industry is systemically racist regardless of any over or blatantly discriminatory behavior therein.

They wouldn't claim that probably because there are rappers of other races. You are holding that other races can be racist and this is correct but most examples would be inconsequential because of power dynamics.
 
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You cite a changing definition of racism, can you pull out those multiple definitions and go over them, maybe label them for discussion?

I know you have them in the OP but it's hard to talk about something if there are multiple definitions floating around.
Well the oppressed will complain to their oppressors that “this is racist!”

The first line of defense is “that’s not racism!”, (for some, it’s the only line they need.)

We’re at “okay we can agree that racism is BAD, now, let’s define it without it being racist!”
 
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Ana the Ist

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Not sure the second effort helped, sorry. However...


Is just not true, at least not in all cases. For example:
Causal inference - Wikipedia.

As I said, some of what you say stems from a lack of understanding of admittedly advanced statistics.

I'm not sure you're thinking of the right term...or perhaps I'm not seeing the relationship between my example.

From your link.

Causal inference remains especially difficult where experimentation is difficult or impossible, which is common throughout most sciences.

That's why I wouldn't be able to correctly make assumptions about the wealth of a Jewish person due to the impossibility of controlling for every factor in the lives of the group. To do so is simply to hold a racist belief based upon a fact that exists abstractly about a group.

For example, let's say the average Jewish household wealth is 250k. That includes millions of people, both wealthier and poorer than 250k. They acquired whatever they had by different means.

I can't possibly correctly assume anything about the wealth of a Jewish person, or it's causes, without being racist.



I pointed out that

If we both understand how cause and effect work and it's relationship with history....

Why bring it up? Why would I bring it up?

Is very you-centric. You pay lip service to events before your time but everything else is mired in the now and disconnected from the history that caused it.

I was hoping that I could better explain myself in regards to the topic. I presented my viewpoint, with a brief explanation of some of the history behind it's formation. I wanted to explain where I think some of these thoughts or beliefs come from...

It's me presenting me and my ideas as the subject, in hopes of constructive criticism.

Again...I'm fully aware of how all of history caused all of history.


There's no evidence you find that in anyway obvious, blatant or otherwise, I certainly see no evidence of you accepting that racism is an intergenerational thing that has had deep roots that go well beyond what you see now.

By intergenerational...do you mean parents passing their racist beliefs onto children?

I've seen it, and I've also seen it avoided. Both possibilities exist and I deny neither.

I have never believed in the slippery slope fallacy, or any other fallacy, for that matter.

I'm not claiming that I have some ability to predict the future. There are however, multiple examples of this. Theory of race originated as an obscure taxonomic idea, and multiple versions were proposed. This left academia, and began to be distorted to racist beliefs. Racist beliefs became normalized and then used as a justification for racist policy.

That's how it happened in this nation and many others.

I'm aware that I disagree with your definition of "discriminating against white people"

In what way?
 
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Pommer

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What is the harm in erring on the side of the downtrodden?
Like the old meme that’s still floating around...
“We need to give tax breaks to the rich to create jobs, but don’t help the poor s because that’ll just make them ‘dependent’ on Government, limiting their FREEDOM!”
 
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LockeeDeck

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Oh no...not a long time by the view of history. It's only been out in the open and freely expressed for maybe 10 years....which is short by historical standards. In my opinion though, this isn't a reason to minimize it. I believe the opposite, it's a good time to examine it, scrutinize it, and try to solve it. I fear the repercussions of the backlash that seems to inevitably follow the damage such ideas cause.

Not sure what you mean by that, what's only been out for only around 10 years?
Your idea of anti white racism or discussion of non-white racism?

For the former, if discussion of past deeds by whites constitutes racism then maybe you don't understand what true marginalization actually entails.

For the latter, there probably are areas of non-white racism that needs to more thoroughly examined but it's hard to get to those when people keep downplaying larger and more pressing areas of racism.

Oh no...I have absolutely no objection to the past of racism in history or even present day being taught...as long as it's done factually.

What I would object to is the teaching of the idea of the guilt of past deeds is the obligation of those today for nothing more than being the same race.

It's an absurd notion that has it's roots in the dogma of original sin more than any real notion of justice. If a man murders, serves 30 years of a 40 year sentence and dies in prison....we don't take his son and imprison him for 10 years. More absurd would be the idea of just grabbing someone of any race and forcing them to serve the sentence.

I never liked the concept of original sin but I don't think that's whats going on there.

The consequences of past deeds are still being felt today as many of those past deeds were only a generation ago. Also many of those past deeds were unpunished. I can see how guilt might rise from that but we shouldn't shy away from discussion because of that.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Wouldn't systemic racism be an outgrowth of prejudice plus power though?

I can't make any sense of the power plus prejudice definition at all.

Generally I have no problem with new definitions if they lead to a better understanding or have more utility.

This definition appears to have neither.

For example, let's imagine an Asian tennis player being shouted at by the audience and the abuse includes racial epithets.

What is the power dynamic there? Do they have more power than her? Does she have more than them? Is the referee racist if he doesn't stop it? How do we assess the races of the individuals in the crowd and consequently their relationship with power?

It's an absurd question and if I subject it to a thousand people with the power+prejudice definition as their guide....I would expect a variety of answers on who is racist and why.

This sort of analysis which the definition requires never happens. I've never seen anyone who professed believing the definition engage in such analysis.

As far as new definitions go....it's useless. If I asked everyone if the crowd is racist, I'm certain that they would say yes because they don't honestly believe the power+prejudice definition....apart from defending their own racist beliefs.

For example a police man is prejudice against blacks and stops them more often, as a result he finds more black criminals, ignoring of course all the people he stopped that were not criminals. From this he trains other police to do the same and police who were not inherently prejudice follow a culture. From this a system of racism is established.

Does that seem different from my number #2 expression of racism?

When other people say "systemic racism" do you equate that with someone just saying that "a group of people within a system are engaging in racial discrimination"?


They wouldn't claim that probably because there are rappers of other races. You are holding that other races can be racist and this is correct but most examples would be inconsequential because of power dynamics.

I don't think they would claim so because of the mockery and denial that typically follows the suggestion that a white person was discriminated against by a black person. It's a taboo topic in our society.
 
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