Why I Disagree With The Racial Divide

[stevil]

I feel like you could clarify a couple of things there....

You've said both that it's not about laying blame and...

"Racism in America is an institutional “white man’s problem visited on people of color,”
It's a generalisation of course, because non whites can also be racist.
But in USA the main racism problem is that which is put onto people of colour and primarily it is caused by white people. Not all white people and not even most white people. But to improve the situation you do need white people to address it. They need to stop assuming a black in a white neighborhood is a criminal upto no good.

I highlighted the inconsistency in your position stated here and your recent posts saying that this isn't about "blaming white people" or that it's not about individual racism even though that is exactly the example that you give.

If you are not blaming white people, why would you see the problem as stemming from them and it's their "responsibility" (which is a moral obligation that in this case, infers a moral accusation) to correct this "problem"?

That came about because you posted an article about something that Biden had said and you asked me to address or defend Biden there.
I wouldn't go out of my way to say the problem is due to white people.

But

USA has a white majority population. Whites typically have the power positions in USA, and many whites are calling police when the see a black person in their neighbourhood, and whites are hiring their white friends or white associates into positions (just to highlight two examples)
This is a gross generalisation of course. Most white people have never called the police to report on a black stranger, most whites aren't in positions of power.

But, as a collective group, I'd say that whites can have the biggest impact in USA on addressing systemic racism. By perhaps re-considering whether that stranger really looks suspicious or not, or reconsidering whether to hire a recommended associate or whether to go to the job market, request CVs and review CVs based on merit instead. Once the top positions in companies are representative of the demographics in society then it won't be so much of a problem. But at the moment, those spots are held predominantly by whites and so if they hire based on personal contacts then "whites" are more likely to get the jobs ("white privilege" anyone????)
It's generalisations, but it bears out in the statistics.

So its not like saying that whites are to blame, and that all whites should feel guilt and must give reparations. It saying that whites can contribute significantly to trying to solve this problem going forward.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That came about because you posted an article about something that Biden had said and you asked me to address or defend Biden there.
I wouldn't go out of my way to say the problem is due to white people.

You're drawing a distinction due to context...and I understand that.

Let's be clear though, if you said that you have already explained the concept to me...and this is the explanation you're referring to...

You've got some explaining to do.

But

USA has a white majority population. Whites typically have the power positions in USA, and many whites are calling police when the see a black person in their neighbourhood,

Ok...to be clear....

We're talking about over 150 million people here. When you say calling police on a black person in their neighborhood...

I've no doubt that you would be able to produce examples of this.

I could also produce examples of people calling the police on white people .

I could also produce examples of people calling the police on people who actually were committing crimes.

And I understand that certain sections of the media give far more attention to only one type of story. That alone does not make it a blanket explanation of anything without examination.

and whites are hiring their white friends or white associates into positions (just to highlight two examples)

Ok...and you suggest what as a solution? Racial hiring quotas? Calling white people racist if they don't hire more non-white people?

Indoctrination of children?

What is the solution to this problem in your mind?

This is a gross generalisation of course.

I'd say.

Most white people have never called the police to report on a black stranger, most whites aren't in positions of power.

Right.

But, as a collective group, I'd say that whites can have the biggest impact in USA on addressing systemic racism.

What you just gave me are two examples of individual racism. I can't stop some white stranger from calling the police. I don't even know how I could make that judgment unless it were me making the phone call.

I also don't see how I have any right to tell employers who to hire.

By perhaps re-considering whether that stranger really looks suspicious or not, or reconsidering whether to hire a recommended associate or whether to go to the job market, request CVs and review CVs based on merit instead.

CVs?

Once the top positions in companies are representative of the demographics in society then it won't be so much of a problem. But at the moment, those spots are held predominantly by whites and so if they hire based on personal contacts then "whites" are more likely to get the jobs ("white privilege" anyone????)
It's generalisations, but it bears out in the statistics.

Again, I don't agree. If equity is indeed a worthy goal "and I don't see that it is" then offering "top positions" based upon race isn't equity. It's just racial discrimination.

Even worse, instituting such things without any clearly defined end goal is just institutional racism without any end.

I don't really trust anyone making such suggestions.

So its not like saying that whites are to blame, and that all whites should feel guilt and must give reparations. It saying that whites can contribute significantly to trying to solve this problem going forward.

I can account for my own behavior, not the behavior of over 100 million white people. There's no solutions being offered here and I don't see how your idea of systemic racism is any different than just assuming that problems are caused by the individual racism of some white people.

 

[stevil]

Ok...to be clear....

We're talking about over 150 million people here. When you say calling police on a black person in their neighborhood...

Yep, but the overall statistics bears out the problem.
Another discovery approach would be to take a survey.
"Have you ever been pulled over driving a car, without any apparent cause?"
"Have you ever been approached by police or neighbourhood watch without any apparent cause?"
and see if there is any disparity based on race demographic.

I've no doubt that you would be able to produce examples of this.

I could also produce examples of people calling the police on white people .

I could also produce examples of people calling the police on people who actually were committing crimes.

And I understand that certain sections of the media give far more attention to only one type of story. That alone does not make it a blanket explanation of anything without examination.

Which is why we should look towards statistics.

Ok...and you suggest what as a solution? Racial hiring quotas? Calling white people racist if they don't hire more non-white people?

Indoctrination of children?

What is the solution to this problem in your mind?

I never mentioned any of those?
Why did you ascribe those to me?
My one below was about opening jobs upto the market rather than encouraging a hiring practice of current contacts and referral.
But there are probably other potential solutions too. At the moment I am trying to point out the problems, since you seem to think there aren't any systemic racial issues.

What you just gave me are two examples of individual racism. I can't stop some white stranger from calling the police. I don't even know how I could make that judgment unless it were me making the phone call.

I'm not asking you to stop white people doing this.
I'm just pointing out that it is a systemic racial issue. That police get called upon based on people's thinking of "suspicious behaviour" and for some people, a black person in a white neighborhood is deemed suspicious.
I'm just pointing out a problem.

I see you trying to call this individual racism rather than systemic racism. It seems you accept one form of racism but don't understand the other. I've tried to explain it to you before. But you insist on your own definitions. So I can't really help you understand my thinking here and perhaps the thinking of others that accept systemic racism as being a thing.

I also don't see how I have any right to tell employers who to hire.

There are ways for government to address racist hiring or even racist tenancy practices. But it is difficult to prove.
Systemic racism is much more difficult, actually you would need organisations to voluntarily get on board with this. e.g. not encourage hiring by referral. It seems to be an honest enough thing to do. Especially if you don't want to incurr hiring agency fees. Easy to ask employees if they know of qualified people, and give them a small financial reward for bringing in a successful candidate. It doesn't seem racist at face value. There was no intent to ensure the hiring of whites. But overall it bears out that this practice improves the chances of whites being hired and hinders the ability for blacks to get those jobs.

This is just one way. But if people were aware of the consequences of certain practices then they could consider an approach which seeks to level the playing field, to make it fair. It is not enough just to say "I'm not racist, I don't care the race of the person I hire" because if you choose to find a candidate via referral then unknowingly you might be disadvantaging minorities.

CVs?

Maybe not a term they use in USA?
CV is a Curriculum Vitae
Curriculum vitae - Wikipedia

Maybe you call it a Resume???? You supply it along with a cover letter when applying for an advertised job.

Again, I don't agree. If equity is indeed a worthy goal "and I don't see that it is" then offering "top positions" based upon race isn't equity. It's just racial discrimination.

I've not suggested this as a solution though. You have jumped the gun here.

I can account for my own behavior, not the behavior of over 100 million white people. There's no solutions being offered here and I don't see how your idea of systemic racism is any different than just assuming that problems are caused by the individual racism of some white people.

It's hard to get you to understand things.
I'm not trying to change you, or get you to do anything other than gain a better understanding of the people that accept that "systematic racism" is a thing. My views are my views, you would also get a better idea from talking with others, but you need to listen otherwise it is a waste of time.

 

[Pommer]

How so?

Outcomes.
If the system is working without racial bias then why do Black people have statistically higher rates of run-ins with the system?

If the argument is “but who’s committing the crimes?”, then we’ve wandered into another thread.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yep, but the overall statistics bears out the problem.
Another discovery approach would be to take a survey.
"Have you ever been pulled over driving a car, without any apparent cause?"
"Have you ever been approached by police or neighbourhood watch without any apparent cause?"
and see if there is any disparity based on race demographic.

"Have you ever" type questions don't necessarily tell us anything about policing today.

It would be far more useful to ask if people had interacted with the police in the past year and then rate that interaction across a few dimensions.

This has been done and while there is a disparity, it's probably far smaller than you imagine.

Which is why we should look towards statistics.

And I have no problem with that.

I never mentioned any of those?
Why did you ascribe those to me?
My one below was about opening jobs upto the market rather than encouraging a hiring practice of current contacts and referral.
But there are probably other potential solutions too. At the moment I am trying to point out the problems, since you seem to think there aren't any systemic racial issues.

I don't know what you think the difference is between a "systemic" problem and one born of individual interactions between employers, or police, or citizens.

No I wouldn't ascribe those to you....but the Democratic party is pushing those things as solutions and it's rather disgusting.

I'm not asking you to stop white people doing this.
I'm just pointing out that it is a systemic racial issue. That police get called upon based on people's thinking of "suspicious behaviour" and for some people, a black person in a white neighborhood is deemed suspicious.

I'm just pointing out a problem.

But you're describing it as the result of individual behavior. That's not a system.

I see you trying to call this individual racism rather than systemic racism.

That's how you describe it.

When you say "white person calls police wrongly on person of color" you're describing individual behavior.

It seems you accept one form of racism but don't understand the other. I've tried to explain it to you before. But you insist on your own definitions.

What's the meaningful difference between individual racism and systemic racism?

There are ways for government to address racist hiring or even racist tenancy practices. But it is difficult to prove.

I'd feel like that was a more valid criticism if we couldn't say the exact same thing about any crime at all.

Any crime without evidence is hard to prove. That's because we demand evidence of a crime, we don't merely convict on accusations alone, or at least we shouldn't.

Innocent until proven guilty is a rather good standard.

Systemic racism is much more difficult, actually you would need organisations to voluntarily get on board with this. e.g. not encourage hiring by referral. It seems to be an honest enough thing to do. Especially if you don't want to incurr hiring agency fees. Easy to ask employees if they know of qualified people, and give them a small financial reward for bringing in a successful candidate. It doesn't seem racist at face value. There was no intent to ensure the hiring of whites. But overall it bears out that this practice improves the chances of whites being hired and hinders the ability for blacks to get those jobs.

Wouldn't you at least want evidence that this is the cause of a problem before deciding it is?

I've never gotten a job by referral. I've heard of it, but I've got no reason to believe it's significant in influencing outcomes.

This is just one way. But if people were aware of the consequences of certain practices then they could consider an approach which seeks to level the playing field, to make it fair. It is not enough just to say "I'm not racist, I don't care the race of the person I hire" because if you choose to find a candidate via referral then unknowingly you might be disadvantaging minorities.

I have no problem telling people what characteristics they shouldn't be discriminating by....telling them one's they should is the problem.

Maybe not a term they use in USA?
CV is a Curriculum Vitae
Curriculum vitae - Wikipedia

Maybe you call it a Resume???? You supply it along with a cover letter when applying for an advertised job.

Sure, resume.

I've not suggested this as a solution though. You have jumped the gun here.

It is being suggested though...even if not by you.

It's hard to get you to understand things.
I'm not trying to change you, or get you to do anything other than gain a better understanding of the people that accept that "systematic racism" is a thing. My views are my views, you would also get a better idea from talking with others, but you need to listen otherwise it is a waste of time.

Can you describe how it works without individual behavior?

I get that you see it a certain way with the "job referral" example and you are correct that if a white person refers another white person....they obviously haven't referred any non-white people.

What you don't seem to realize is they also haven't referred any other white person. It's not as if the job is shut out to people by race....it isn't, it's shut out to everyone who doesn't know any employee working at the job.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Outcomes.

There's a 1001 possible explanations for outcomes.

If the argument is “but who’s committing the crimes?”, then we’ve wandered into another thread.

It's not...

The Curse of the Second-Born Child Is Real

Consider the disparity there. 1st and 2nd born sons in the same households, same schools, same parents, etc.

2nd born sons are 20-40% more likely to end up in jail. That's rather big. IQ, income levels, etc...a ton of disparities exist. It's hard to explain why. There's guesses...parents tend to be more invested in the 1st child. There's the possibility of the 2nd child having a worse peer group, worse role models, etc.

My point is that even when all these factors are the same, we end up with disparity.

 

[stevil]

Can you describe how it works without individual behavior?

This is the core problem that is stopping you from understanding.
When a percentage of people do this, then it alters the statistics.
It isn't about just an isolated instance, it is about this occurring enough times for this to be statistically significant.

I get that you see it a certain way with the "job referral" example and you are correct that if a white person refers another white person....they obviously haven't referred any non-white people.

White people are more likely to have white friends and contacts, black people are more likely to have black friends and contacts.
When I was working at a KFC, in my early days, it was full of Indian employees.
Now, I never thought that the hirer was racist and was only picking indian people, I got the job there because my Indian friend referred me and I expect that lots of the people got jobs there because of their connections and so due to the hiring people being indian it turned out that most employees there overtime were Indian.
I could imagine how frustrating it might be to be a minority person and find that the majority race are getting almost all the jobs.
At one stage, when I went through a redundancy, the company helped us by putting us through a course to help us find new jobs. The teacher of the course was saying that management jobs are usually taken through referrals rather than through going to the market.

What you don't seem to realize is they also haven't referred any other white person. It's not as if the job is shut out to people by race....it isn't, it's shut out to everyone who doesn't know any employee working at the job.

Sure, I do realise that. There are many white people that also don't have these connections. But statistically it shows that the minority races miss out and have a significant disadvantage because of the incumbent position of the dominant race. So Boards and executive positions remain predominantly white.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is the core problem that is stopping you from understanding.
When a percentage of people do this, then it alters the statistics.
It isn't about just an isolated instance, it is about this occurring enough times for this to be statistically significant.

Well I'm not sure you understand statistical significance then.

That's not the sort of thing one can just look at a disparity and determine.

Statistical significance - Wikipedia

White people are more likely to have white friends and contacts, black people are more likely to have black friends and contacts.

Agreed.

When I was working at a KFC, in my early days, it was full of Indian employees.
Now, I never thought that the hirer was racist and was only picking indian people, I got the job there because my Indian friend referred me and I expect that lots of the people got jobs there because of their connections and so due to the hiring people being indian it turned out that most employees there overtime were Indian.
I could imagine how frustrating it might be to be a minority person and find that the majority race are getting almost all the jobs.
At one stage, when I went through a redundancy, the company helped us by putting us through a course to help us find new jobs. The teacher of the course was saying that management jobs are usually taken through referrals rather than through going to the market.

Great example...

Let's imagine this KFC opens all jobs to the public without referrals and posts openings in every community.

And because of the tendency to self segregate, it's still overwhelmingly Indian.

What then? What are we actually trying to achieve? What is the end goal?

Sure, I do realise that. There are many white people that also don't have these connections. But statistically it shows that the minority races miss out and have a significant disadvantage because of the incumbent position of the dominant race. So Boards and executive positions remain predominantly white.

And? Again....what do you hope to achieve?

 

[stevil]

Let's imagine this KFC opens all jobs to the public without referrals and posts openings in every community.

And because of the tendency to self segregate, it's still overwhelmingly Indian.

What then? What are we actually trying to achieve? What is the end goal?

The end goal is to remove the barriers, to create a more level playing field.
If you consider self segregation you are talking about areas of geography where people of a culture habitat. e.g. lots of chinese move into an area where there are chinese restaurants and chinese grocery stores, indians move into an area where there are indian restaurants and indian spice stores and indian sweet stores etc.
But on a wider perspective, you would hope that positions, high up positions are more evenly distributed and there isn't so much of a disparity.
You try something and see if it works.

OR

You could deny there is a problem, try nothing, and put your efforts into opposing everything that people try to address this issue.

 

[KCfromNC]

And yet, in his explanation of the term...he blames the white race.

Even so, I don't feel compelled to start thread after thread about how tough it is as a white person.