Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Domitian

[ebedmelech]

I did not accuse you of collusion. I simply said that all of you do this repeatedly.

Just as you repeatedly do, except it's from your viewpoint Biblewriter, and you think it's explicit.

 

[Biblewriter]

Just as you repeatedly do, except it's from your viewpoint Biblewriter, and you think it's explicit.

This forum is expressly dedicated to eschatology, and you and your friends are attempting to shut down all discussion of eschatology, claiming that all the prophecies do not mean what they say.

In attempting to shut down all discussion of eschatology, all of you continually troll threads about eschatological subjects, trying to derail any real discussion of whatever happens to be the subject of the thread.

 

[ebedmelech]

This forum is expressly dedicated to eschatology, and you and your friends are attempting to shut down all discussion of eschatology, claiming that all the prophecies do not mean what they say.

Here again you try to say there's some collusion going on Biblewriter! You have no power here, and you certainly don't have a "lock" on what the scriptures say.

I will express what I think the prophecies say! This is "Christians Forums" NOT "Biblewriter's Forums". If you only want your view expressed go to the "Pretrib Safe House" or the "Dispensational Theology" section.

You need to get this loud and clear: I will express my view of eschatology here...and as long as it complies with the forum rules, you can only express your view, just as I do. If we "bump heads" from time to time, so be it. When it's all said and done all I will say is "thanks...the Lord Bless"...and move on.

In attempting to shut down all discussion of eschatology, all of you continually troll threads about eschatological subjects, trying to derail any real discussion of whatever happens to be the subject of the thread.

Saying that doesn't make it true Biblewriter. Who has the forum dismissed for trolling? NO ONE Biblewriter!!! So once again this is you being frustrated that another view of eschatology is gaining ground...and it's not just in this forum! This is a "reformation of eschatology" that's happening in American Christianity. People are realizing they need to really read their scriptures.

Get ready Biblewriter...I'll be here a LONG TIME...(God willing)! I'm not 1disciple, I don't mind that people oppose my view of eschatology!

 

[Biblewriter]

Here again you try to say there's some collusion going on Biblewriter!

I never said, nor even suggested, any such thing. I simply said that all of you do it.

You have no power here, and you certainly don't have a "lock" on what the scriptures say.

I will express what I think the prophecies say!

You say what you think they mean, and I point out what they actually say.

This is "Christians Forums" NOT "Biblewriter's Forums". If you only want your view expressed go to the "Pretrib Safe House" or the "Dispensational Theology" section.

You need to get this loud and clear: I will express my view of eschatology here...and as long as it complies with the forum rules, you can only express your view, just as I do. If we "bump heads" from time to time, so be it. When it's all said and done all I will say is "thanks...the Lord Bless"...and move on.

You need to study the rules. Particularly the one against derailing threads.

Saying that doesn't make it true Biblewriter. Who has the forum dismissed for trolling? NO ONE Biblewriter!!! So once again this is you being frustrated that another view of eschatology is gaining ground...and it's not just in this forum! This is a "reformation of eschatology" that's happening in American Christianity. People are realizing they need to really read their scriptures.

Get ready Biblewriter...I'll be here a LONG TIME...(God willing)! I'm not 1disciple, I don't mind that people oppose my view of eschatology!

And I don't mind you expressing your views, as long as you refrain from derailing threads, from posting comments that have zero bearing on the subject of the thread. But I intend to continue exposing the undeniable fact that your views directly contradict what the scriptures explicitly say.

 

[Interplanner]

So BW, the Rev is literal, you say. You say, it is mid 90s. We both know it says the time is at hand, the thing is coming quickly, is about to happen. Now let's say this comes up in a discussion of a thread called "the Rev is written in the mid 90s." Any thinking person is going to then wonder:

is it more likely that the 'other' school of scholars who think it speaks to the disasters of the mid 70s was why John said 3 ways that it was for immediate use are correct, rather than the mid 90s scholars, when nothing seems to have 'literally' happened?

Therefore, do not criticize derailing when it is actually taking up a perfectly necessary discussion. You are not the only person with 'logic'; you are the only person who has an organizational 'corner' on all the material.

Or do you have a ton of things that happened in the mid 90s that we don't know about?

 

[Biblewriter]

So BW, the Rev is literal, you say.

Where did I say that? I have repeatedly said that prophetic visions are symbolic.

You say, it is mid 90s. We both know it says the time is at hand, the thing is coming quickly, is about to happen. Now let's say this comes up in a discussion of a thread called "the Rev is written in the mid 90s." Any thinking person is going to then wonder:

is it more likely that the 'other' school of scholars who think it speaks to the disasters of the mid 70s was why John said 3 ways that it was for immediate use are correct, rather than the mid 90s scholars, when nothing seems to have 'literally' happened?

Therefore, do not criticize derailing when it is actually taking up a perfectly necessary discussion. You are not the only person with 'logic'; you are the only person who has an organizational 'corner' on all the material.

Or do you have a ton of things that happened in the mid 90s that we don't know about?

No, all I have is the clear answer to your argument, as given by God himself.

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:3-8

This is God's answer to your argument. If you don't like it, take it up with Him.

 

[ebedmelech]

And I don't mind you expressing your views, as long as you refrain from derailing threads, from posting comments that have zero bearing on the subject of the thread. But I intend to continue exposing the undeniable fact that your views directly contradict what the scriptures explicitly say.

Look in the mirror then...because if you're saying I derail threads...you definitely are guilty yourself.

Also don't act like some threads are going to branch into other thing, by the very nature of the subject. That's just the way it is with some threads.

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 325:

So BW, the Rev is literal, you say.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Interplanner said in post 325:

You say, it is mid 90s. We both know it says the time is at hand, the thing is coming quickly, is about to happen.

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[Interplanner]

B2 you are a nuisance. If it is to BW then just leave it OK? You didn't even listen to the argument because your auto-reply trigger was left on and saying the same stupid things you have said for a year.

Obviously, if there were catastrophes all over Judea in the 60s and a chance that John wrote this about then, "soon" "quickly" etc take care of themselves.

That's more sensible than the "literal" version that is actually outside of time or 'on God's time' but doesn't say so.

 

[Interplanner]

BW,
Yes, I should have limited myself to the examples I was giving (about to give): "quickly" "at hand" "very soon." I understood we were to take these literally. I'm really quite sure you don't mean some kind of magic-symbolism is in these terms! Like a numeric value for each Greek letter or something.

But can you not see my question: if it is going to say these things in normal language, where would a person be more likely to think it was refering: to the upheavals of the 60s (correction, too) or the 90s?

I notice that Peter says from the start that there is a huge range. He doesn't say it is very soon and then say, 'btw, "very soon" is meaningless.' It is the Rev that says it so many times. My questions are about the Rev. I just can't imagine him having gone through the events and then fiddle with time-handles. It is more sensible that he was speaking of them.

 

[Biblewriter]

BW,
Yes, I should have limited myself to the examples I was giving (about to give): "quickly" "at hand" "very soon." I understood we were to take these literally. I'm really quite sure you don't mean some kind of magic-symbolism is in these terms! Like a numeric value for each Greek letter or something.

But can you not see my question: if it is going to say these things in normal language, where would a person be more likely to think it was refering: to the upheavals of the 60s (correction, too) or the 90s?

I notice that Peter says from the start that there is a huge range. He doesn't say it is very soon and then say, 'btw, "very soon" is meaningless.' It is the Rev that says it so many times. My questions are about the Rev. I just can't imagine him having gone through the events and then fiddle with time-handles. It is more sensible that he was speaking of them.

Yes, I did see your question, and i thoroughly understood your argument. That I why I gave you GOD's answer to your objection. If you don't like it, take it up with God.

 

[shturt678s]

Let's say John wrote Revelation in 95, 96 A.D., ie, which I have no contexual doubts about, what do you consider the 'main subject of Revelation,' and which part of Revelation do you consider 'the burden of Revelation.'

You obviously have spent a lot of time in this area, and just wanted to compare to the 'big boys,' eg, Christian think-tankers, and etc.

Thank you again,

Small potatoes, Old Jack

 

[Interplanner]

BW, but Peter has no Judaic detail like the Rev. 2 Pet 3 is indeed God's answer about delay, but not about the Rev and all the convulsions, nor is it about the 'immediate' time-handles.

If I'm not mistaken, Jack is now asking the same question. What would be immediate in the 90s?

 

[ebedmelech]

Let's say John wrote Revelation in 95, 96 A.D., ie, which I have no contexual doubts about, what do you consider the 'main subject of Revelation,' and which part of Revelation do you consider 'the burden of Revelation.'

You obviously have spent a lot of time in this area, and just wanted to compare to the 'big boys,' eg, Christian think-tankers, and etc.

Thank you again,

Small potatoes, Old Jack

Well Jack I can't and won't go with 95 AD.

When you look at the fact that Paul and Peter are both martyred, and their warnings beforehand and then John mentioning NOT ONE word about Jerusalem being destroyed and the exile??? Let's not to leave out the fact that John is in his 90's...I just don't see that at all.

 

[Biblewriter]

BW, but Peter has no Judaic detail like the Rev. 2 Pet 3 is indeed God's answer about delay, but not about the Rev and all the convulsions, nor is it about the 'immediate' time-handles.

If I'm not mistaken, Jack is now asking the same question. What would be immediate in the 90s?

First, God never said immediate. He said He would come soon. And 2 Peter 3 is God's explanation of why that "soon" is God's soon and not man's soon.

 

[shturt678s]

Well Jack I can't and won't go with 95 AD.

When you look at the fact that Paul and Peter are both martyred, and their warnings beforehand and then John mentioning NOT ONE word about Jerusalem being destroyed and the exile??? Let's not to leave out the fact that John is in his 90's...I just don't see that at all.

You're of a higher paygrade than my humble self, yet you're not able to see "all" in their tombs shall rise leaving not one "left behind." (Jn.5:28, 29) Then Jn.6:39 & Dan.12:2.

My IQ fluctuates with ambient temperature, and yours much higher, yet unable see, ie, I think you need to get into the little shoes of a small child then scrutinize again, ie, date of Rev. secondary the Scriptures of course.

Old Jack hoping it will warm up

 

[Interplanner]

BW, you opt out of literalism when you want. It is really annoying.

When John the Baptist said the kingdom of God or the time was 'engus' it was that year. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded, you know that her destruction is 'engus.' Luke uses the same when saying the Kingdom would come by that generation. Maybe that's what will help you see this: yes, it could be as much as generation, and so the question goes back to the 90s. We know of things that happened in the 60s that were 'engus' and we don't know of things that happened in the 90s that were. A person would naturally have to say that they (Mt 24 & //s) meant for quite a bit to be refered to the DofJ, and that has a gravitational pull on the Rev; many scholars call Mt 24 & //s 'the little apocalypses.'

Then you can reasonably allow for some distant future things, which, as I recall, I have usually done. I call it Mt24B. And even though it is introduced by 'eutheos' we know it shifts from Judea/temple/Jerusalem to the world/universe.

I assert that the question Peter's skeptics are asking is right about that, not about the DofJ. I think once the DofJ happened they probably got the point; maybe not.

An ordinary reading of these passages together would make you think that Mt24B was to be immediate (yes, the word is used) and that is why some of us sync the Rev with that. In some cases, it uses the same language about 'every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.'

 

[Biblewriter]

BW, you opt out of literalism when you want. It is really annoying.

When John the Baptist said the kingdom of God or the time was 'engus' it was that year. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded, you know that her destruction is 'engus.' Luke uses the same when saying the Kingdom would come by that generation. Maybe that's what will help you see this: yes, it could be as much as generation, and so the question goes back to the 90s. We know of things that happened in the 60s that were 'engus' and we don't know of things that happened in the 90s that were. A person would naturally have to say that they (Mt 24 & //s) meant for quite a bit to be refered to the DofJ, and that has a gravitational pull on the Rev; many scholars call Mt 24 & //s 'the little apocalypses.'

Then you can reasonably allow for some distant future things, which, as I recall, I have usually done. I call it Mt24B. And even though it is introduced by 'eutheos' we know it shifts from Judea/temple/Jerusalem to the world/universe.

I assert that the question Peter's skeptics are asking is right about that, not about the DofJ. I think once the DofJ happened they probably got the point; maybe not.

An ordinary reading of these passages together would make you think that Mt24B was to be immediate (yes, the word is used) and that is why some of us sync the Rev with that. In some cases, it uses the same language about 'every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.'

The fleshy minds of the disciples took these things the same way as you do. But Jesus corrected them, saying:

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.
12 Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return.
13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business till I come.'
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.'
15 And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned ten minas.'
17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.'
18 And the second came, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned five minas.'
19 Likewise he said to him, 'You also be over five cities.'
20 Then another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief.
21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.'
22 And he said to him, 'Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow.
23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?'
24 And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.'
25 (But they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas.')
26 For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.' "
Luke 19:11-27
The whole point of this parable was to let them know that, although their fleshly minds assumed it would be immediate, there would be a delay.

The fact that this delay would be long was specifically mentioned in Matthew 25.

14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents.
17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also.
18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
21 His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
22 He also who had received two talents came and said, 'Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.'
23 His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
24 Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26 But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
Matthew 25:14-28

Again, after the resurrection, when the disciples asked him, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus answered them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:7-8)

Jesus did not correct them, and tell them that the kingdom had been transferred to the church. He only told them that it was not for them to know "times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." Jesus was instruction the Apostles of his new church. This would have been the ideal time to correct their view that the kingdom would be restored to Israel, if that view was false. But the great Teacher did no such thing. He did not teach them that the church had become Israel, and that was how the kingdom would come to Israel. He just told them that tit was not for them to now when this would happen.

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 336:

You're of a higher paygrade than my humble self, yet you're not able to see "all" in their tombs shall rise leaving not one "left behind." (Jn.5:28, 29)

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life", while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

shturt678s said in post 336:

Then Jn.6:39 & Dan.12:2.

In John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

shturt678s said in post 336:

Then Jn.6:39 & Dan.12:2.

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

 

[shturt678s]

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12)

Jn.16:12, deals with the coming Paraclete (Holy Spirit) in a little more than 50 days. "Hour" is used in more of an O.T. broad sense in the arears my friend, ie, about the "judgment" (Dan.12:2, and back Abraham, Heb.11:10). That these Jews are most assuredly to know, they who now have the very jduge before them, and are seeking to destroy him.

that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5).

Thank you sincerely for only having "2" resurrections due to recently heard of even "3"? Let me begin with only a "1" resurrection proposition: Rev.20:4, "....and (I saw) the souls.." Only "1" bodily resurrection at the end. John says he saw souls. This word applies also to "...and they such did not do obeisance..." later in this verse. My point is the martyrs and the saints whom John saw were "souls," ie, is clearly and completely human.

John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

I think you're certain that the "souls" mentioned in Rev.20:4 have literal bodies, namely, their own bodies by virtue of "the first resurrection" (v.5), ie, misinterpreting "the first resurrection," and thus "the souls" and the whole of Rev.20:1-6, by placing it chronologically after 19:17-21 (end of the world), into your millennium with its two bodily resurrections. You have to admit it's a theosophy to claim that in the other world souls must at once have bodies my friend.

Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life", while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

In John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Jn.5:28, 29, "...all in their tombs...." As Jn.5:25, 26 repeat and amplify v.24 regarding the subject fo life, so vs.28, 29 repeat and amplify v.27 regarding the subject of "judgment." V.25 and v.28 are parallels also because both have the statement regarding the time, "the hour is coming." Yet the difference is marked, for in v.28 Jesus cannot add, "and now is."

Spiritual quickening starts now and will spead over the world when redemption is once wrought, but the universal judgment comes at the end fo time. Yet "is coming" means that now, with Jesus here and redemption at hand, nothing else intervenes between this present and the final judgment day. This statement of Jesus' is the foundation for one resurrection, and that occurring at the last day.

Old Jack's view