Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

[mindlight]

what Bible translation are you using here?
"Full number" is an extremely erroneous translation of the word "fulness"

The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" is oft equated with the notion of quantity, amount, or number count of Gentile believers, but does scripture support such a notion?

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.




I don't see any support in either of these verses for the claim:
"One of the prophecies about Jesus return refers to a mass turning of the Jews to Christ."

Which prophesy makes this claim?

Are you a Praetorist? The NIV translation implies " until the full number" has come in. The NkJV says fullness of the gentiles but could also refer to the times of the gentiles in which they dominate the Jews in which case some say it came to an end in 1967.

You have a non standard interpretation.

 

[mindlight]

Jesus Christ came back. unfortunately we did not recognise it. We are making a mistake on taking the bible literally. The bible is written in codes and hidden symbols. Only the wisdom seekers finally get to learn the truth about the bible. Remember that God or Jesus Christ are spiritual. Meaning everything will happen in the mind or the spiritual world. The spiritual world is the real world! The physical world is the manifestation of the spiritual world. If you are more spiritual than physical, then you will see Jesus Christ.

And no thread would be complete without a bit of neo Gnosticism. But let us not pretend thst was what the Apostles thought.

 

[parousia70]

I am pretty sure they did not know when so they did not deliberately mislead. They like us had been told to live in this expectation.

Ok... so the Holy Spirit mislead them? and they in turn unknowingly mislead their flocks?

If they didn't know when, why were they so adamant about the nearness?
There's over 100 NT passages where Jesus and the apostles exhort their 1st century flocks to "be ready" for is is near, soon coming, without delay, about to take place, etc....

Doesn't sound like a group of teachers that was as in the dark about the timing as you seem to imply....

 

[parousia70]

Are you a Praetorist? The NIV translation implies " until the full number" has come in. The NkJV says fullness of the gentiles but could also refer to the times of the gentiles in which they dominate the Jews in which case some say it came to an end in 1967.

You have a non standard interpretation.

Rather, I'm letting scripture interpret scripture, but for the sake of the argument,
Let's replace Fulness with FULL NUMBER in all the passages where the word fulness is used (that I supplied for you) and see if your interpretation works:

John 1:16
And of his full number have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their full number?

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the full number of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the full number of him that filleth all in all.

Really? You're going to stick with that?
Fullness means Full number when we find it in the NT?

 

[ewq1938]

That kind of puts a downer on him coming back if things have to get desperate before it happens.

Well, the great tribulation is certainly going to be a "downer" with all the persecutions and murders of Christians but it must happen before Christ returns.

 

[mindlight]

In Daniel 12 there is a prediction of more travel and increased knowledge. We have technology. Persecution continues from Muslims, Communist atheists, corrupt governments, criminal neighbors and mad family members. More people in the world have access to rapid transportation. Having the Internet is like having a library at one’s fingertips. People used their iPhones to make documentary videos.

In the 60’s people worried about nuclear war because of the Cuban missile crisis. In the 70’s they worried pollution would spoil nature. In the 2000’s they worried about terminal depletion of oil and natural gas reserves. Now they worry about an overheating globe.

In the US more people die early from obesity than from starvation. Cuts to Social Security and Medicare worry the elderly. There is a lack of affordable housing and zoning laws against smaller high density dwellings. Lust had more children than diligence could adequately provide for.

Yes there are strengths and weaknesses to the new world but even the poorest have it better today. There have always been injustices, travel was not invented in the last century. Thomas preached in India. Not sure we can look at the signs today and read a crisis. That said if Corona virus kills 10% of the worlds population I may have to revise that view

 

[Kaon]

And no thread would be complete without a bit of neo Gnosticism. But let us not pretend thst was what the Apostles thought.

How would we know? More than half of the NT is from Paul...

What institution controlled the texts in canon? It wasn't the layperson, we just do what we are told by authorities. Who has the authority?

We were already told there are principalities, archons and powers that rule this plane of existence, but we never actually listen do we (that is why we have the audacity to be political when we were also told we are not of this world).

The Word of the Most High is LIVING ENTITY, John even said not nearly all of His words can be put in all of the books in the world: so why are we using canonical texts as if they are the Living Entity when the Living Entity called the Word of the Most High is ALIVE?

 

[Contenders Edge]

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

Peter tells us that God is not slow in keeping His promises in the way that we count slowness, and that the reason why He tarries is because He takes no pleasure in destroying anyone but because He desires that all would come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9)

God would rather show His love than His wrath and so He tarries, but a day is coming in which He will no longer tarry but will finally have to punish sin. If we were to witness God's wrath and judgment at work in any degree, only then would we understand why He tarries. If you have ever read the book of Revelation, the judgments foretold thereby are unlike anything that we have ever seen and will be incredibly destructive: Most of the world is going to be wiped out when the judgment is complete.

 

[parousia70]

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.

So it has no discernible meaning at all?

what about when Jesus used it here:
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matt 26:18

or here:

And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. John 2:13

Distant Future? Immediate? either?
How were the disciples to know what he meant if as you say it could mean anything?

Where do you find the term "at hand" used in scripture to describe anything not actually "at hand"?

 

[Rebecca4Christ]

We have always had heretics and indeed some of the most vibrant times in church history were characterised by passionate errors and conflicts. Did you know for instance that both Ignatius and Justin Martyr had the view that Jesus was an incarnate angel. Yet both of these were regarded as Early Church Fathers. A general apostacy needs a lot more momentum than it currently has. It needs a sort of Stalinist government combined with a nihilistic liberal global culture to make it happen. Think we are still waiting on that one. INdia is oppressive freezing church bank accounts. Chinas imprisons pastors and the Muslims just murder them so there are bad places but overall the church has seen enormous growth the last century and Africa would be a real success story in that respect with gains far out weighing the recent losses in Europe and the Middle East. Also despite persecution the church is growing in China and in INdia

Well my point was it has BEGUN and maybe you don't see the signs we were given to watch for,but I do. If you can't see the apostasy in the American church and Great Britain, I don't know how.
I misunderstood the spirit of your O.P.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So it has no discernible meaning at all?

what about when Jesus used it here:
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matt 26:18

or here:

And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. John 2:13

Distant Future? Immediate? either?
How were the disciples to know what he meant if as you say it could mean anything?

Where do you find the term "at hand" used in scripture to describe anything not actually "at hand"?

It means the same as our English word approach[es]. Tomorrow is approaching, so, too, also, is the future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Most people understand the broadness of the word. The meaning is determined by subject and context.

 

[Kaon]

Jesus Christ came back. unfortunately we did not recognise it. We are making a mistake on taking the bible literally. The bible is written in codes and hidden symbols. Only the wisdom seekers finally get to learn the truth about the bible. Remember that God or Jesus Christ are spiritual. Meaning everything will happen in the mind or the spiritual world. The spiritual world is the real world! The physical world is the manifestation of the spiritual world. If you are more spiritual than physical, then you will see Jesus Christ.

Indeed. The Kingdom is already within us; these vessels are a "mal-projection" of real life - not actual life. That is why the Kingdom is always "at hand" and close - once you die you face judgment.

 

[Tra Phull]

"Unto them that look for Him will He appear the second time, without sin, unto salvation"

And yet "the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together"

Some see it and wail...

For us, it is unto salvation that we will see Him.

 

[mindlight]

Well my point was it has BEGUN and maybe you don't see the signs we were given to watch for,but I do. If you can't see the apostasy in the American church and Great Britain, I don't know how.
I misunderstood the spirit of your O.P.

I see the same signs you do the Steve Chalks that once inspired and now disappoint. But we are only a small part of a global church and it would be dishonest to say the church as a whole is not growing and is not healthy. So if there is no global apostacy on the scale required then maybe this is sufficient reason to think Christ is not coming back immediately

 

[mindlight]

Peter tells us that God is not slow in keeping His promises in the way that we count slowness, and that the reason why He tarries is because He takes no pleasure in destroying anyone but because He desires that all would come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9)

God would rather show His love than His wrath and so He tarries, but a day is coming in which He will no longer tarry but will finally have to punish sin. If we were to witness God's wrath and judgment at work in any degree, only then would we understand why He tarries. If you have ever read the book of Revelation, the judgments foretold thereby are unlike anything that we have ever seen and will be incredibly destructive: Most of the world is going to be wiped out when the judgment is complete.

Yes and even the judgments of revelation are those of a God who measures his anger and who shakes the world to bring as many as possible to repentance and salvation. He could click his fingers and snuff out the whole of creation just as he once brought it into existence in a single moment

 

[mindlight]

How would we know? More than half of the NT is from Paul...

What institution controlled the texts in canon? It wasn't the layperson, we just do what we are told by authorities. Who has the authority?

We were already told there are principalities, archons and powers that rule this plane of existence, but we never actually listen do we (that is why we have the audacity to be political when we were also told we are not of this world).

The Word of the Most High is LIVING ENTITY, John even said not nearly all of His words can be put in all of the books in the world: so why are we using canonical texts as if they are the Living Entity when the Living Entity called the Word of the Most High is ALIVE?

The church of the second century established a rule of faith that respected the authority of the apostles , their accounts of the life of Christ and his teachings and established an order to the church. It took time to reach settled understandings of the incarnation and the Trinity. But that process involved rejecting Gnostics like Valentinius , and heretics like Marcion who rejected the OT and much of the gospels also and Montanists who went beyond what they could truly say.

Today that settled understanding affirmed by the Spirit over centuries is accepted by all the major branches of the church and solidified in the apostles creed for instance and the canon. There is no significant disagreement on the Second Coming.

 

[Kilk1]

Then what did Peter Mean when he Said:
“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

Peter Instructed His flocks to be ready for the Judgment "about to be revealed" for "the end of all things was at hand"

Was He wrong to exhort them this way? Was He mistaken?
Was He applying a double standard in your view?

I don't know; some say the "end of all things" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while others say it's about the Lord's return but that "at hand" can mean different things. What I do know is that 1 Peter 4:7 doesn't contradict 2 Peter 3:3-4; 8-9. Do we agree on this?

 

[parousia70]

It means the same as our English word approach[es]. Tomorrow is approaching, so, too, also, is the future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Most people understand the broadness of the word. The meaning is determined by subject and context.

Ok... so again, where are the other non 2nd coming scriptural examples of something being told was at hand, that wasn't literally at hand?

 

[parousia70]

I don't know; some say the "end of all things" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while others say it's about the Lord's return but that "at hand" can mean different things. What I do know is that 1 Peter 4:7 doesn't contradict 2 Peter 3:3-4; 8-9. Do we agree on this?

Of course.

 

[Kilk1]

Thanks for addressing that passage as I have to preach on it on Sunday. In the context of the Roman Empire Christians preached their hope in the Returning King who would free them from slavery, poverty and oppression. From the fear of being rounded up and fed to lions, burnt at the stake, crucified or sent to the mines. Peter affirms that this hope is no lie. Because it rests on a person whose Majesty fits the bill of the returning King. He knows this cause he saw the glorified Christ at the Transfiguration. Jesus was more than an angel , indeed received the worship of the angels, he is and always will be the King we wait for. But you are right that even though the expectation of that time was of an imminent return Peter himself gave no date.

Also you are right we are still waiting for the full list of the marked believers to walk through that proverbial church door. The church is not yet gathered, there are some who have yet to repent. Last chance folks he is coming soon!

Thanks for the reply! I think we agree then that 2 Peter 3:8-9 answers the question as to why it's been 2,000 years, right? God doesn't want anyone to perish, so He's being longsuffering to sinners.

 

[parousia70]

It means the same as our English word approach[es]. Tomorrow is approaching, so, too, also, is the future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Most people understand the broadness of the word. The meaning is determined by subject and context.

Are all the "imminent" words we find in the NT just as broad?
"Soon, shortly, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, near, Immediately, etc...
Do all of these have such an elastic, changeable meaning that render them effectively meaningless?