Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

[parousia70]

I don't know; some say the "end of all things" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while others say it's about the Lord's return but that "at hand" can mean different things.

Which Coming of the Lord was this one?:

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Already Past?, or are we Sill waiting for this particular, post crucifixion, Coming of the Lord to miserably destroy the Chief Priests and Pharisees, and lease His vineyard to others who will render Him the fruits, that is described in this passage?

 

[Josheb]

I've heard various preachers say it's because the gospel hasn't yet been preached around the globe. There are still 'people groups' that haven't been witnessed to.

.

Matthew 24:3-14
"Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to him, and he said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.' As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?' And Jesus answered and said to them, 'See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.'"​

Colossians 1:15-23
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."​

According to Paul the gospel had been preached throughout all creation in his era. I'll bet those various preachers have a difficult time reconciling these two verses.

 

[Josheb]

Joseph in prison "two whole years" is prophetic for a 2,000 year gospel age

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...rophetic-for-a-2-000-year-gospel-age.8139223/
Please prove that assertion.

4 Prophetic stories reveal a 2,000 year gospel age followed by the tribulation

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...spel-age-followed-by-the-tribulation.8139556/
Please prove that assertion.

The Tabernacle reveals the age of the Law, the age of Grace and the Millennium

Please prove that assertion.

 

[Tra Phull]

I think - in P70' s post - verse 43 already happened

I don't know if the Colossians verse about gospel going out to all the world included all of China and Africa, Australia, New Zealand -- at the time Colossians was written, that's kind of hard to swallow.

As a Partial Preterist, I don't know what to think about "the Tribulation" - a 42 month period is mentioned in Revelation - did it already occur in like late sixties to 70 AD?

I really don't see a "future 70th week", I think the 70 weeks ran CONCURRENTLY, ended with stoning of Stephen, who might have been "one of those standing there" who would not see death til he saw the kingdom come with power - in a sense, Stephen did see just that right before he died.

But there is such a thing as Dual and Multiple fulfillment of prophecy.

Abomination of Desolation - when, and how many?
A pig slaughtered on the altar at time of Antiochus Epiphanes, but then Jesus speaks of an Abomination of Desolation as something FUTURE TO HIM that followers should watch for and flee - AND THEY DID, FLEE TO PELLA...

Is it possible there is another?

The TRIBULATION of Roman-Jewish War - 66-70 AD, was it the one tribulation never seen before and never coming again?

I think it is "Reverse Date Setting" for anyone to say that Jesus cannot come for at least 7 years, yet some Post Tribbers seem to say that...

Partial Preterism is a wide-open system to me, and all the complexities of prophecy seem to demand it.

Christ could come at any time - everyone doing their own thing like days of Noah - then WHAM !!

All I know is that some things happened by 70 AD, and some things have not occurred yet.

 

[Kaon]

The church of the second century established a rule of faith that respected the authority of the apostles , their accounts of the life of Christ and his teachings and established an order to the church. It took time to reach settled understandings of the incarnation and the Trinity. But that process involved rejecting Gnostics like Valentinius , and heretics like Marcion who rejected the OT and much of the gospels also and Montanists who went beyond what they could truly say.

Today that settled understanding affirmed by the Spirit over centuries is accepted by all the major branches of the church and solidified in the apostles creed for instance and the canon. There is no significant disagreement on the Second Coming.

Who gave the Church the authority to determine which teaching are spiritually appropriate for other humans?

Consensus is a horrible barometer for truth.

 

[Tra Phull]

Saying we have a "2000 year Gospel Age" is date-setting.

I also do not buy into the assertion that the earth/mankind began in 4004 BC

 

[parousia70]

I think - in P70' s post - verse 43 already happened

Is vs 43 the same event as vs 40-41?
I say unquestionably yes.

The TRIBULATION of Roman-Jewish War - 66-70 AD, was it the one tribulation never seen before and never coming again?

Again, Yes, Without question.

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been many "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them as prophesied (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

 

[Marilyn C]

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

Over the past 2,000 years and across the world, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Body, has been building and maturing His Body.

Even though the Apostle Paul gave his disciples the whole counsel of God, he said that after he left then there would come in `savage wolves` not sparing the flock. (Acts 20: 27 - 30) Thus we have seen centuries of error till finally there has been a restoration of all truth.

`till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect, (mature) man..` (Eph. 4: 13)

The Body of Christ has had to grow up into Christ standing for all the truths of His character and His purposes. We are nearly there.

 

[parousia70]

We are nearly there.

And since we know you believe "nearly there" can have the stretched and elastic, non literal meaning of "thousands of years away still", I'ts difficult for me to take you literally when you say this.

You have shown yourself to be extremely inconsistent in your literal vs spiritual hermeneutic with words such as near, soon, etc...
Effectively rendering the term meaningless to me when you say it.

 

[Marilyn C]

And since we know you believe "nearly there" can have the stretched and elastic, non literal meaning of "thousands of years away still", I'ts difficult for me to take you literally when you say this.

You have shown yourself to be extremely inconsistent in your literal vs spiritual hermeneutic with words such as near, soon, etc...
Effectively rendering the term meaningless to me when you say it.

 

[Marilyn C]

How does the Body of Christ Mature.

The Apostle Paul gave the early disciples the whole counsel of God. They were taught the full revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.



`For I (Paul) have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)
   
   
   
2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)
   
   
   
3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)
   
   
4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

5.Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)


6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

10.Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916)

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,


Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

 

[Contenders Edge]

Yes and even the judgments of revelation are those of a God who measures his anger and who shakes the world to bring as many as possible to repentance and salvation. He could click his fingers and snuff out the whole of creation just as he once brought it into existence in a single moment

True and undeniably, even during the worst time in history, many do come to repentance, yet there comes a time when, in spite of all that is happening, men's hearts become so hardened that they count God as their enemy and instead of repenting, curse and blaspheme him for the judgments, leaving the Lord no choice but to destroy them from off the face of the earth. The only ones who will be left alive will be any of the repentant who survive the forthcoming tribulation and it is for their sakes that those days are shortened lest all life on the earth perish. (Mt. 24:21-22, Mk. 13:19-20)

And while I agree God could snuff out the entire creation, He chooses not to because He created the universe for His glory and pleasure, and He will create a new and better one in the place of this present one.

The intended point was to explain why Christ has not returned yet and it is because of what will have to happen when He does. During the first half the tribulation, judgment is poured out on a more limited scale than at the end of the second half when the judgment is poured out to a degree that is far less restrained.

 

[Chris V++]

According to Paul the gospel had been preached throughout all creation in his era. I'll bet those various preachers have a difficult time reconciling these two verses.

Had Paul preached to the Mayans in central America? The end of that Matthew passage states the gospel 'shall be preached in the whole world' and 'then the end will come.' So if the end hasn't yet come, maybe the gospel hasn't yet been sufficiently preached in the whole world?

 

[Curtis.Hilliker]

I have no idea when He's coming back.

 

[Guojing]

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

Your views on this will depend on whether you believe in the rapture of the Body of Christ before the Great Tribulation.

Once the rapture happened, it will be 7 years before Jesus return again.

 

[Alarmist]

The contrast between the early churches urgent belief in an imminent return and your comfortable patience could not be more marked.

True dis^^^^

2Peter
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus said we could know the season (this means things change, but it takes discernment), ... but the only place where someone becomes complacent in waiting, and actually says in their heart "my Lord delayeth his coming" ends as follows;
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
-What does just knowing the season do for us?../..It gives us hope and a stirring in our souls to stay ready.....As we see the day (of his return) approaching. (forsake not the assembling of yourselves together)
As I told someone recently, If for some reason we lose our ability to discern the changing of these seasons(no man knows the day/hour) it will change nothing. His coming is not dependant upon us discerning that "said coming" draws nigh. He can come anyway. Can he not? When the last soul to be saved is gleaned, then the word of God that holds everything in place, will be used to destroy everything from its place. Though it would do us well to keep ourselves stirred and privy to his coming.

 

[Marilyn C]

Had Paul preached to the Mayans in central America? The end of that Matthew passage states the gospel 'shall be preached in the whole world' and 'then the end will come.' So if the end hasn't yet come, maybe the gospel hasn't yet been sufficiently preached in the whole world?

That gospel, good news relates to the Israel ruling over the nations of the world. And that we know is in the millennium. That is the good news preached in the whole world in the tribulation. Also note that is why Peter asked the Lord just before He ascended, was He going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. (Acts 1: 6)

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are all the "imminent" words we find in the NT just as broad?
"Soon, shortly, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, near, Immediately, etc...
Do all of these have such an elastic, changeable meaning that render them effectively meaningless?

It does not mean imminent. That is an interpretation you force on it. The meaning is relative to the subject under discussion and context of the text. You are trying to force an earthly meaning on God's eternal time. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are all the "imminent" words we find in the NT just as broad?
"Soon, shortly, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, near, Immediately, etc...
Do all of these have such an elastic, changeable meaning that render them effectively meaningless?

Since when is 40 years+ later imminent?

 

[sovereigngrace]

.

Matthew 24:3-14
"Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to him, and he said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.' As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?' And Jesus answered and said to them, 'See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.'"​

Colossians 1:15-23
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."​

According to Paul the gospel had been preached throughout all creation in his era. I'll bet those various preachers have a difficult time reconciling these two verses.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?