Why gays, lesbians, transgendered, and others are born

[ivebeenshown]

This is not a 'Sabbath' derail but a legitimate scriptural point aimed at those who use the Bible selectively for no other purpose than to condemn someone that they don't like.

KCKID, I don't believe you have the grounds to accuse him of 'condemning people he doesn't like'. Has there been a time where he has said "all those who have been with the same gender in sexual acts will go to hell?"

 

[KCKID]

KCKID, I don't believe you have the grounds to accuse him of 'condemning people he doesn't like'. Has there been a time where he has said "all those who have been with the same gender in sexual acts will go to hell?"

I ask Phinehas in advance for forgiveness if I'm mixing him up with someone else (it's been a while since I saw this particular post) but it's my understanding that he (Phinehas) said that his now deceased homosexual brother(?) is now suffering in hell. If that IS the case then it is Phinehas himself (not God) that has condemned his brother to presently serving eternal time in hell.

And, that someone could actually believe this form of cruelty - toward a brother, no less - of a God they purport to worship then words fail me.

 

[lawtonfogle]

There tend not to be little heterosexual babies running around in any way that you could identify! Sexuality is genetically determined at least partially if not entirely, but it is not expressed until it is 'switched on' by hormones at puberty.
The theology may be open to debate, but the biology is pretty straightforward!!

The idea of genes that do not express themselves until many years down the road is a hard concept for many people to grasp. That said, it seems biological factors in the womb play a non-trivial part as well, which is interesting because such factors are not caused by genes but neither are they are choice.

 

[Phinehas2]

Polycarp1,

Jesus is not Himself a grapevine, or the gate to a sheepfold, nor yet is He the abstract nouns "Word," "Way," "Truth," or "Life." He is these things by way of metaphor -- they describe in human terms what He is in divine terms.

Very weasely. Jesus says He is the truth and His words are spirit and life, so the Word and the truth definitely aren’t metafors He is the truth and He is the Word.

Ollie is presenting the understanding that Jesus is not speaking of men who have been castrated but of people who for one reason or another cannot or choose not to marry -- "eunuchs" in the metaphorical sense.

That’s correct, those who cannot marry to a faithful man/woman union for whatever reason, made that way born that way or chosen that way.

And it may help to present the theological understanding of the secular fact that persons with homosexual orientation nearly universally claim not to have chosen it but to have discovered it about themselves.

But it isn’t the truth about themselves, the truth is what Christ NT teaching says, and that doesn’t include homosexual orientation. The truth about homosexual relations is they are the result of turning away from what God has clearly ordained, man and woman, or not able to marry for whatever reason and indulged in error and sin.

God made them as gay people, not because He abandoned them to sin, but for His own purposes.

Which is a denial of Jesus Christ and His truth as Jesus affirmed God’s creation purpose for man and woman.

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

Phinehas) said that his now deceased homosexual brother(?)

Incorrect, I dont think you read any of my posts properly.

 

[Phinehas2]

The thread asks why gays, lesbains and trangendered are born. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about gays, lesbians or transgendered.

So where did the idea come from if not from God?
Satan?

 

[onemorequestion]

Yes He does answer this question. He answers in in Matthew 19:12. His answer is that they are born that way "from their mother's womb."

Being born without testicles is being born with a birth defect. Are you claiming that Jesus is saying they are born with a birth defect?

And notice that marriage as a man and a woman is REINFORCED BY Jesus?

 

[onemorequestion]

You very conveniently 'stopped me there' so that you need not respond to the rest of my statement, Phinehas. That was as follows:

And, again ...do you honor the Creation Sabbath? It can't be ANY other day than the 7th-day because it's on that day - according to scripture - that God rested and blessed and hallowed that day. That means that God made the 7th-day holy! He didn't do that with Sunday or ANY OTHER day. Paul has/had no authority to change the day to another ...not that he did. Why do you throw Leviticus at others while ignoring an instruction that actually became one of the Ten Commandments?

Unless you tell me why you ignore the Sabbath command (punishable by death if not obeyed) given by the same God who gave the Leviticus texts with which you constantly use to condemn others then I personally cannot give any credibility to anything you say ...scripturally speaking. That also goes for onemorequestion and others of the 'you are doomed unless you honor Leviticus' tribe.

This is not a 'Sabbath' derail but a legitimate scriptural point aimed at those who use the Bible selectively for no other purpose than to condemn someone that they don't like. I could, if I wanted to, use the Sabbath scriptures to condemn all of those that 'I' don't like who every week glaringly disregard a command of God!

Welllll now . . . Sincde my name was brought up.

I am not a Levititucus crowd member. Jesus made it clear what He taught His followers about the Sabbath.

I hold to Jesus. Notice that the Apostles did to. At the great suffering for it I may add.

And on marriage Jesus taught that it was comprised of a man and a woman.

Now as Christians, let us allow the pagans and tax collectors to believe marriage is anything and any way they want to bend abd twist it. But "as Christians" let us follow what Jesus and His Apostles had to say about proper sexual behavior. That being IN A MARRIAGE undefiled.

Seems the debate ends about gay pride in the Christian Church at the opening of the Gospel and the close of Jude.

 

[onemorequestion]

You may have heard of metaphor? The Holy Spirit and the human writers He inspired apparently thought highly of it; they used it extensively.

They also used VERY direct right and wrong wordings as well.

Sexual holiness is well-defined as man and woman in an undefiled marriage.

As in the metaphor: "Keep the marriage bed undefiled." It is NOT about doing sexual things to a mattress and springs.

There should be NO argument between Christians about proper sexual behavior. And there is NO metaphor to introduce the worldliness of Gay Pride into The Church.

God is not Himself in literal fact a sheepherder who makes His sheep lie down in green pastures and leads them beside still waters.

Yet Pslam 51 is very direct. Little in the way of metaphor there. David is obvioulsy moved by the Holy Spirit to say things extremely direct. And he shows repentance and forgiveness as the way to lead others. Once again, Gay Pride does not fit your attempts to make it sound theologically.

Jesus is not Himself a grapevine, or the gate to a sheepfold, nor yet is He the abstract nouns "Word," "Way," "Truth," or "Life." He is these things by way of metaphor -- they describe in human terms what He is in divine terms.

I can use metaphors that will get me banned here. Jesus also made it clear he was speaking in parables (metaphors galore) to insult the lost (as it were) those outside of his desire to reach. Those metaphors were so powerful and well understood that it got Jesus executed.

I could use many, many, many, "metaphors" about homosexuality that shows how utterly inappropriate the behavior is in Christian life. And I would be understood perfectly.

Ollie is presenting the understanding that Jesus is not speaking of men who have been castrated but of people who for one reason or another cannot or choose not to marry -- "eunuchs" in the metaphorical sense.

Then that establishes YET AGAIN . . . the utter impossibility of same gender marriage. No way out of that Polycarp1.

And it may help to present the theological understanding of the secular fact that persons with homosexual orientation nearly universally claim not to have chosen it but to have discovered it about themselves. God made them as gay people, not because He abandoned them to sin, but for His own purposes.

That's a stretch of logic when you consider that almost the entire liberal crowd demands gay marriage for those that say they are homosexuals. You have only proven that these people should be encouraged exactly the opposite. "God made them to never marry." If, they want to go against their nature, then if they desire "marriage" it would be to someone of the opposite sex. THAT is in accord to God in any form He communicates to us.

One of which may be for a test of our compassion and willingness to understand others who are in a fundamental way different from ourselves.

Our compassion should be to encourage them to see the immense awesomeness in someone of the opposite sex. Again, that would be appealing to all to hold the power and love of God over that of carnal, base (and debased), and hedonstic human kind.

 

[onemorequestion]

Unrealistic. But then, you're just 20.

David was young when he new the Lord would use his (David's)experiences when he (David) was younger, to slay Goliath. David was obvioulsy so well experienced with the sling and stones that a head as massive as Goliath's must have be laughable to be afraid of.

And in today's world, what securalism has made the young experience makes them ready for the only truth there is, "Gospel truth" far more appealing.

By the way, who called the Bible 'the book of TRUTH' ...God?

Are you saying it is semi-truth?

 

[OllieFranz]

Being born without testicles is being born with a birth defect. Are you claiming that Jesus is saying they are born with a birth defect?

And notice that marriage as a man and a woman is REINFORCED BY Jesus?

The Greek word "eunouchos" only partially corresponds to the Hebrew word "saris." The Semitic peoples knew two completely different types of people they called "saris" one matches the Greek word, the other does not. The second type of "saris" was entirely capable of fathering children, but he was not interested in doing so. In the literature, he is depicted as preferring to seduce comely young men than comely young women. The rabbis argued over whether or not he could be cured. This is the "eunuch" that was born that way "from his mother's womb.

If both of the established types of "eunuch" in Jesus' statement were physically emasculated, then Jesus is telling holy celibates to physically castrate themselves to become the new, third type of "eunuch."

 

[KCKID]

Phinehas) said that his now deceased homosexual brother(?)

KCKID,
Incorrect, I dont think you read any of my posts properly. [/color]

Then ...what IS the 'correct' story about a (gay) member of your family who died of AIDS and is now suffering in hell?

No offense, but some of your posts are a tad incoherent at times.

 

[KCKID]

[/color]

David was young when he new the Lord would use his (David's)experiences when he (David) was younger, to slay Goliath. David was obvioulsy so well experienced with the sling and stones that a head as massive as Goliath's must have be laughable to be afraid of.

And in today's world, what securalism has made the young experience makes them ready for the only truth there is, "Gospel truth" far more appealing.



Are you saying it (the Bible) is semi-truth?

My answer to your question is a truthful 'I don't know'. The Bible was written by men, not God. We are told there is only one who is perfect and that is Jesus. So, the men who wrote the Bible were not perfect. And, had God desired a 'perfect' Bible then He could have written it Himself instead of getting IMperfect human beings to do it for Him. So, there is the human element about the Bible and its authors that cannot be dismissed.

I know no more than you do whether the Bible is fully truth or semi-truth. You see ...our conclusions in this regard are based simply on 'what we (choose to) believe'. Therefore, even if our beliefs differ, neither one of us can be considered to be right or wrong because our beliefs are our own. Having said that, one can be banned from this particular forum simply for not sharing the belief of a mod. This is why belief systems can get crazy if we let them. This is why the Fundamental Christians get picked on so often.

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

My answer to your question is a truthful 'I don't know'. The Bible was written by men, not God. We are told there is only one who is perfect and that is Jesus.

ok so how do you know the men who wrote that Jesus is perfect are right?

So, the men who wrote the Bible were not perfect. And, had God desired a 'perfect' Bible then He could have written it Himself instead of getting IMperfect human beings to do it for Him.

But the Holy Spirit is described as perfect and leading to truth which inspired the human writers, not lest to record the words and teaching of the Jesus they describe as perfect.

I know no more than you do whether the Bible is fully truth or semi-truth.

For us it is fully true.
However if one changes just one aspect of the truth it is no longer the truth.

 

[Jase]

For us it is fully true.
However if one changes just one aspect of the truth it is no longer the truth.

Well, then the geocentric conspiracy disproves the Bible as true by your logic, since the Church for hundreds of years claimed as a fact that the Earth was geocentric as written in the Bible. They were very very wrong.

 

[DD2008]

Sinners are born because of Adam's sin.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Well, then the geocentric conspiracy disproves the Bible as true by your logic, since the Church for hundreds of years claimed as a fact that the Earth was geocentric as written in the Bible. They were very very wrong.

The church can claim whatever they want but it doesn't change what is actually written in the bible. The church can claim their giant idolatrous statues of saints are ok when we know it's not really the case. The bible doesn't support them.

Phinehas2's logic in that statement was just fine.

 

[Phinehas2]

Jase,

Well, then the geocentric conspiracy disproves the Bible as true by your logic, since the Church for hundreds of years claimed as a fact that the Earth was geocentric as written in the Bible. They were very very wrong.

Which just goes to show how false teaching like that and homosexuality can get in.

 

[Jase]

The church can claim whatever they want but it doesn't change what is actually written in the bible. The church can claim their giant idolatrous statues of saints are ok when we know it's not really the case. The bible doesn't support them.

Phinehas2's logic in that statement was just fine.

Um, the Bible does in fact support geocentrism, as well as a flat Earth. Why do you think the church held the view so long? They didn't pull it out of thin air. A literal reading of the Bible supports that cosmology.

 

[Jase]

Jase,
Which just goes to show how false teaching like that and homosexuality can get in.

It's not a false teaching based on a literal reading of the Bible. You've only proven that you cherry pick the Bible just as much as those you condemn.