Why don't Lutherans cross themselves?

[Zecryphon]

There are those who may very well be "all show", but who am I to judge.

On the other hand we, all of us, could only pray to be blessed with martyrdom.


Q

I prefer to live a long life and die peacefully surrounded by my loved ones.

 

[mrshoperose]

The people I knew who prayed in public didn't do it loudly but they did all join hands, bow their head and pray audibly. It made me uncomfortable the one time I did join them in prayer before a meal, because prayer is a private, sacred time between me and God. Not between, myself, God and the entire viewing public. I've never understood that whole praying in public thing anyway. The Bible says we are to pray without ceasing, so why not pray a prayer of thanksgiving from the parking lot to the front door of the restaurant? Why make a show of it? We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do. Like I said, I've never understood it.

 

[RadMan]

But you would not consider the things you list above to be Pharesitical in nature, but making the sign of the cross is...correct?


Q

It's a reminder to us. Not an outward show. At least for most of us. We wear leathers to fit in like Jesus did and witness. Not to stand out.

 

[BakaFidelis]

The people I knew who prayed in public didn't do it loudly but they did all join hands, bow their head and pray audibly. It made me uncomfortable the one time I did join them in prayer before a meal, because prayer is a private, sacred time between me and God. Not between, myself, God and the entire viewing public. I've never understood that whole praying in public thing anyway. The Bible says we are to pray without ceasing, so why not pray a prayer of thanksgiving from the parking lot to the front door of the restaurant? Why make a show of it? We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do. Like I said, I've never understood it.

Praying in public is just sharing your prayer as one voice. Not that it is any more blessed or holy. It is noted in Scripture as is praying in Private.

As for martyrdom, I don't think that is why they were doing it. It was more "Look at me, I am Christian, see how good I am."

We pray when we go to a restaurant and other places in public, but we don't go making ourselves purposefully known. Should God cause someone to overhear us and the spoken Word in prayer to touch someone's heart, then so be it. But we are definitely not going to pray just so we can hope someone admires us.

If God called me to be a martyr I would do so gladly.

 

[Protoevangel]

It's a reminder to us. Not an outward show. At least for most of us. We wear leathers to fit in like Jesus did and witness. Not to stand out.

But you assume that making the sign of the cross is automatically "to stand out"?

 

[Zecryphon]

Praying in public is just sharing your prayer as one voice. Not that it is any more blessed or holy. It is noted in Scripture as is praying in Private.

As for martyrdom, I don't think that is why they were doing it. It was more "Look at me, I am Christian, see how good I am."

We pray when we go to a restaurant and other places in public, but we don't go making ourselves purposefully known. Should God cause someone to overhear us and the spoken Word in prayer to touch someone's heart, then so be it. But we are definitely not going to pray just so we can hope someone admires us.

If God called me to be a martyr I would do so gladly.

"As for martyrdom, I don't think that is why they were doing it. It was more "Look at me, I am Christian, see how good I am.""

My comment about martyrdom was directed to the person who said that the people she knew who did pray in public did it in an effort to invite a debate. So for people who pray in public, with the end result being a debate probably with an atheist, it is a form of martyrdom and suffering for their faith. They invite the criticism and then brag about how they are "defending the faith" to all comers to their friends. I've known people like that. I agree with your interpretation as well. I do believe alot of people who do pray in public do it for the sole reason of being recognized as a "good" Christian. I believe that's the whole mindset behind the Gather at the Pole thing, but that's another issue. LOL

"We pray when we go to a restaurant and other places in public, but we don't go making ourselves purposefully known. Should God cause someone to overhear us and the spoken Word in prayer to touch someone's heart, then so be it. But we are definitely not going to pray just so we can hope someone admires us."

That's great. You should pray as you feel led to do so. If the Holy Spirit leads you to pray in public, who am I to say 'thou shalt not pray in public'. LOL

"If God called me to be a martyr I would do so gladly."

But is that how you would prefer to die? Quoleth's statement struck me as rather authoritative in nature. I'm sure that's jut me reading something into the statement that is not there, but that's just how it came across.

 

[BakaFidelis]

To be totally honest, I don't have a preference on death. It would, in fact be a welcome event as I would finally get to my real home. Death holds absolutely no fear for me.

However if my death here on earth was in serving God, then how much better the send-off would be in my opinion.

 

[RadMan]

But you assume that making the sign of the cross is automatically "to stand out"?

I'm not assuming anything. It has already been admitted on here that some people do just that.

 

[Qoheleth]

I prefer to live a long life and die peacefully surrounded by my loved ones.

Well, I think all of us tend to prefer this. But it is whatever God wishes for me, His will, is what I seek, struggle with, and submit to.


Q

 

[RadMan]

To be totally honest, I don't have a preference on death. It would, in fact be a welcome event as I would finally get to my real home. Death holds absolutely no fear for me.

However if my death here on earth was in serving God, then how much better the send-off would be in my opinion.

I don't mind death either. It's just the process that I don't like. I long to be with Jesus but I'm not looking forward to the possibilities that come with age..........or disease .Martydoom at an old age would be preferable to the alternative.

 

[Qoheleth]

It's a reminder to us. Not an outward show. At least for most of us. We wear leathers to fit in like Jesus did and witness. Not to stand out.

I'm not assuming anything. It has already been admitted on here that some people do just that.

Some may indeed. But loud colors, types of clothing, and loud machines announcing ones self couldnt be the same...right?





Q

 

[Qoheleth]

The Bible says we are to pray without ceasing, so why not pray a prayer of thanksgiving from the parking lot to the front door of the restaurant? Why make a show of it? We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do. Like I said, I've never understood it.

Well, the Scriptures do not tell us to only pray in private. I think that you are imposing your impressions and feelings on anyone who, for all the right reasons, would give thanks to God at anytime and for any reason under the sun.

A little charity goes a long way.


Q

 

[WildStrawberry]

Re: praying in public:

Romans 1:16-17 (ESV)

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."


Thinking about praying in public, and going back to what Qoheleth said about "intent is everything"...

I think these verses show best how I feel about praying in public. Why should I NOT pray just because I'm afraid of being thought pharacetical? Or that someone will think "who does she think she is? better than us 'cause she prays??" Or even "oh dear...who might be looking at me???"

No. To not pray in public for any of these reasons is to be ashamed of being a Christian. My public prayers are limited to me bowing my head and saying the prayer, usually in my head but it's out loud if Fiancé decides to pray with me and then in a quiet voice, a crossing of myself and then right into conversation without missing a beat.

Why? Because it's a part of who I am. I pray in public. I pray in private. I pray in Church, Sunday School, in the car, in the bathtub (one of the only places I can pray without interruption), while cooking dinner...sometimes while EATING dinner if it's something I've never done before...LOL...I tell people "I'll pray for you!" and I DO. Sometimes right there in the store or wherever we are if t seems that prayer is something needed RIGHT NOW. Why not? I'm not doing it for man. I'm doing it for God. For HIS glory.

So, I will not stop praying in public. I can NOT stop praying in public, for to do so, to me, is admitting that I am ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. And that is something that simply is NOT true.


Kae

 

[Qoheleth]

Quoleth's statement struck me as rather authoritative in nature. I'm sure that's jut me reading something into the statement that is not there, but that's just how it came across.

To suffer and die for Christ, I believe, is a gift from God. In martyrdom we share the cross with Christ in the most intimate way. Im not saying one must or should be martyred though.


Q

 

[RadMan]

Re: praying in public:

Romans 1:16-17 (ESV)

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."


Thinking about praying in public, and going back to what Qoheleth said about "intent is everything"...

I think these verses show best how I feel about praying in public. Why should I NOT pray just because I'm afraid of being thought pharacetical? Or that someone will think "who does she think she is? better than us 'cause she prays??" Or even "oh dear...who might be looking at me???"

No. To not pray in public for any of these reasons is to be ashamed of being a Christian. My public prayers are limited to me bowing my head and saying the prayer, usually in my head but it's out loud if Fiancé decides to pray with me and then in a quiet voice, a crossing of myself and then right into conversation without missing a beat.

Why? Because it's a part of who I am. I pray in public. I pray in private. I pray in Church, Sunday School, in the car, in the bathtub (one of the only places I can pray without interruption), while cooking dinner...sometimes while EATING dinner if it's something I've never done before...LOL...I tell people "I'll pray for you!" and I DO. Sometimes right there in the store or wherever we are if t seems that prayer is something needed RIGHT NOW. Why not? I'm not doing it for man. I'm doing it for God. For HIS glory.

So, I will not stop praying in public. I can NOT stop praying in public, for to do so, to me, is admitting that I am ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. And that is something that simply is NOT true.


Kae

Good for you. I pray in public to sometimes. But we don't know the hearts of everyone on here. So still even though I'm not using it the way Q is................ "Intent is everything".

 

[BakaFidelis]

I don't mind death either. It's just the process that I don't like. I long to be with Jesus but I'm not looking forward to the possibilities that come with age..........or disease .Martydoom at an old age would be preferable to the alternative.

How much older can you get? hah, I am just kidding. I pray Christ blesses you with a long and disease free life!

As for me, I have my bags packed

I have been so deeply entrenched in depression these last few years, it is so hard not to think about suicide. I have come close a time or two and the only thing that stopped me was God's love and the knowledge that I would be letting him down one last time. I have often prayed however, that he would hasten my time for my benefit.

I realize it is a selfish prayer, but for a heart that held little hope, it didn't matter much at the time.

This spring. March 7. Was one of those times. I was praying constantly for God to take me, even while I went on my daily life. It was the day before my birthday and it was also a Wednesday at lent so we had evening services. I wasn't going to go at first, but I went anyway, still praying.

Then in the middle of the liturgy I had a impression to wait one year. That I should tough it out with God's help for one more year. At the end of that time I would see things turning around. And should they not, then I could come home.

Here it is November already. Our finances are worse, BUT my faith has soared these last couple of weeks! I have been able to finally commit ALL of my pent up sins before Christ. Even the ones that my heart were fond of because they "felt good".

I am not saying the past couple of weeks have been fantastic, heh. But the bad points are drowned in God's love for me and in the knowledge that no matter how bad it seems, nothing can tear me away from Him.

So yes. I would still welcome the chance to go Home. But I am God's now. More so than ever before, and I will do the tasks He sets before me. If that means I must martyr myself by living, then so be it. heh.

Hmm I think I will make that my title.

BakaFidelis
Martyr in Life

Heh.

 

[Edial]

...
On the other hand we, all of us, could only pray to be blessed with martyrdom.


Q

Interesting statement.

You also said elsewhere that not everyone could be a martyr and it is a gift from God. OK.

Let's say you are not a martyr.

Do you personally believe you will go to heaven when you die as a non-martyr?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[RadMan]

How much older can you get? hah, I am just kidding. I pray Christ blesses you with a long and disease free life!

As for me, I have my bags packed

I have been so deeply entrenched in depression these last few years, it is so hard not to think about suicide. I have come close a time or two and the only thing that stopped me was God's love and the knowledge that I would be letting him down one last time. I have often prayed however, that he would hasten my time for my benefit.

I realize it is a selfish prayer, but for a heart that held little hope, it didn't matter much at the time.

This spring. March 7. Was one of those times. I was praying constantly for God to take me, even while I went on my daily life. It was the day before my birthday and it was also a Wednesday at lent so we had evening services. I wasn't going to go at first, but I went anyway, still praying.

Then in the middle of the liturgy I had a impression to wait one year. That I should tough it out with God's help for one more year. At the end of that time I would see things turning around. And should they not, then I could come home.

Here it is November already. Our finances are worse, BUT my faith has soared these last couple of weeks! I have been able to finally commit ALL of my pent up sins before Christ. Even the ones that my heart were fond of because they "felt good".

I am not saying the past couple of weeks have been fantastic, heh. But the bad points are drowned in God's love for me and in the knowledge that no matter how bad it seems, nothing can tear me away from Him.

So yes. I would still welcome the chance to go Home. But I am God's now. More so than ever before, and I will do the tasks He sets before me. If that means I must martyr myself by living, then so be it. heh.

Hmm I think I will make that my title.

BakaFidelis
Martyr in Life

Heh.

I led a Jeykel and Hyde to for many years but I didn't have enough sense to be depressed . Fake CHristian by day and avid sinner by night. I was definitely convicted by the Holy Spirit and finally gave in and repented. The renowned "2X4" theory. He had to hit me with one to get my attention.

 

[Zecryphon]

Well, the Scriptures do not tell us to only pray in private. I think that you are imposing your impressions and feelings on anyone who, for all the right reasons, would give thanks to God at anytime and for any reason under the sun.

A little charity goes a long way.


Q

"Well, the Scriptures do not tell us to only pray in private. I think that you are imposing your impressions and feelings on anyone who, for all the right reasons, would give thanks to God at anytime and for any reason under the sun."

And I think you're trying present your opinion of my statements, which you have not understood in context, as facts. My statements were directed not at anyone who prays in public, but at people who make a show of praying in public. There is a difference.

"A little charity goes a long way."

Words you'd do well to keep in mind also.

 

[Zecryphon]

To suffer and die for Christ, I believe, is a gift from God. In martyrdom we share the cross with Christ in the most intimate way. Im not saying one must or should be martyred though.


Q

Yeah, I've already admitted that I was probably reading that tone into your statement.