Why don't Lutherans cross themselves?

[Qoheleth]

"In fact it appears in your posts, unqualified, that you are against public prayer...period."

That is not what I have said at all. Show me where I've said that, please. I'll wait. In fact, I said to another poster that he should pray in public as he feels led to by the Holy Spirit. This is from post # 186 of this thread:

Ok, what I am specifically referencing is your post below...

The people I knew who prayed in public didn't do it loudly but they did all join hands, bow their head and pray audibly. It made me uncomfortable the one time I did join them in prayer before a meal,(1) because prayer is a private, sacred time between me and God. Not between, myself, God and the entire viewing public.(2) I've never understood that whole praying in public thing anyway. The Bible says we are to pray without ceasing, (3)so why not pray a prayer of thanksgiving from the parking lot to the front door of the restaurant? Why make a show of it? (4)We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do. Like I said, I've never understood it.

Zecryphon, what I have listed above, of which you have said, specifically, is what gives me the idea that you are against public prayer.



- First, you say emphatically that prayer is private not to be done in view of the public.

- Then you say that you have never understood public prayer which you qualified by saying just previously that prayer is a private matter.

- Next you suggest praying before one reaches the door, which I take to mean, before anyone can really see you pray because otherwise we would, "make a show of it"

- And lastly you say, and with firm resolve and authority, prayer must be done "behind closed doors" or else we can be said to be "like the pagans". This appears to imply that a Christian praying in public is really as a pagan.



Now by this quote of yours above, is it really impossible to see why one would come off with the impression that you appear to stand against public prayer without giving some specific qualifications?

It would be if I were doing that. I am not. I have told people to pray as they feel led to by the Holy Spirit. That is hardly throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now, care to offer an answer to the question I asked earlier in this thread? Why can't a person say a prayer of thanksgiving to God while walking from the car to the restaurant?

If the person is being led by the Holy Spirit (as you say) to pray at the table, what objection could any of us possibly have?


"Why can't a person say a prayer of thanksgiving to God while walking from the car to the restaurant..."?


Well they can, but must they or should they for some reason?

If you feel led to pray in public, do so, but don't raise your voice when you do, or make a show of it. Because then you're praying to be noticed by others, not to give thanks to God for the blessings He has given to you.

And so this brings about a question. What do you mean by "raising your voice" ? Do you mean that one should not be audible at all during prayer while in public or just not in an obnoxious way? For example while at ones table, only the nearest adjacent tables may be able to hear the prayer but not several tables away? Is this what you mean.

Also (for clarification) is making the sign of the cross during public prayer or at anytime when in public, another way of "making a show of it"?




Q

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Actually, the one point that Z raises is a biblically sound principle. Jesus talks about it when he is pointing out the Pharisees and how they pray.

I pray in public quite a bit, but I am always silent about it, for the sheer reason that I don't want to call attention to myself. My prayer isn't really about me, it is about God.

Matthew 6:6
6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[Qoheleth]

Actually, the one point that Z raises is a biblically sound principle. Jesus talks about it when he is pointing out the Pharisees and how they pray.

Yes, I quite agree. If ones intent in prayer is to bring attention to themselves as the ostentatious Pharisees did, then yes it would be arrogant, prideful...a sin.

I pray in public quite a bit, but I am always silent about it, for the sheer reason that I don't want to call attention to myself. My prayer isn't really about me, it is about God.

Same here. except that the words I pray are usually, barely audible. At the least my lips are moving though almost no sound can be detected. When I pray over a meal out in public, the prayer is very quiet and discreet, but not because Im ashamed to give thanks but I too do not want to make my prayer a spectacle.


Q

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I suspect there are times when praying before a meal in public is making a show of it...although it is difficult for me to see that in our present culture. Maybe here in the South when your fellow Baptist neighbor is sitting at the next table but frankly...for the most part Christianity is mocked in our culture and praying aloud in public rarely brings about the kind of attention a prideful person is looking for!

Besides...it wasn't simply the act of praying in public that Jesus criticized it was the content of the prayer...thank God I am not like him!

I think it takes great courage to make the sign of the cross and pray in public these days. And much of the time I don't have that courage so silent prayer is the default.

 

[Zecryphon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The people I knew who prayed in public didn't do it loudly but they did all join hands, bow their head and pray audibly. It made me uncomfortable the one time I did join them in prayer before a meal,(1) because prayer is a private, sacred time between me and God. Not between, myself, God and the entire viewing public.(2) I've never understood that whole praying in public thing anyway. The Bible says we are to pray without ceasing, (3)so why not pray a prayer of thanksgiving from the parking lot to the front door of the restaurant? Why make a show of it? (4)We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do. Like I said, I've never understood it.

"Zecryphon, what I have listed above, of which you have said, specifically, is what gives me the idea that you are against public prayer."

Nope, not at all. You've taken an experience I had with others that made me uncomfortable along with what I understand prayer to be and use that as a basis to say I am against prayer in public. Public prayer makes me uncomfortable, that's why I don't do it, personally. But I have never said anyone can not and should not pray in public. That's your imagination running away with what I've said.

"- First, you say emphatically that prayer is private not to be done in view of the public."

Emphatically? I don't think it was all that emphatic. I just said that prayer was a private matter between an individual and God. Is that emphatic? Looks pretty plain to me.

- Then you say that you have never understood public prayer which you qualified by saying just previously that prayer is a private matter.

What I said was I never understood the practice of praying in public, which is based upon my experiences with public prayer. Those experiences did feel more like a show of Christianity than being a time of sincere thanks to God for His blessings. So my experiences have shaped my understanding of public prayer. I do not feel led to pray in public, audibly, the way these people I am talking about did. I also do not feel the need to join hands with others at the table before praying as these people did. That to me, felt like turning a time of thanksgiving with God into a show.

- Next you suggest praying before one reaches the door, which I take to mean, before anyone can really see you pray because otherwise we would, "make a show of it"

That's not a good conclusion to come to. First I asked a question about why we couldn't pray from the car to the door instead of doing it in the restaurant. A question you still have not answered, by the way. I don't consider that question to be a suggestion of how people ought to pray. That too, is public prayer, isn't it? You're outside, with the public, praying to God.

- And lastly you say, and with firm resolve and authority, prayer must be done "behind closed doors" or else we can be said to be "like the pagans". This appears to imply that a Christian praying in public is really as a pagan.

If a Christian praying in public is doing it with the motive of being noticed, or as someone has already brought up, doing it to invite debate, then you are not praying with the right motive. You are doing it to be noticed. Yes, I have a problem with people who make a show out of public prayer and from what you've written earlier you do too. I have never condemned people who pray publicly in this thread, or said that you must not do it, because if you do then you are like a Pagan. Those are two assumptions by you about me that are totally false.

Now by this quote of yours above, is it really impossible to see why one would come off with the impression that you appear to stand against public prayer without giving some specific qualifications?

Yes it is, if you had been reading all my statements in this thread about this matter. You must have missed some, because I have never said anybody should not pray in public. In fact, I've said the exact opposite. I've said that you should pray as you feel led to do so by the Holy Spirit. My only problem is with the people who make a show of it, like the people I have prayed in public with did, in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
It would be if I were doing that. I am not. I have told people to pray as they feel led to by the Holy Spirit. That is hardly throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now, care to offer an answer to the question I asked earlier in this thread? Why can't a person say a prayer of thanksgiving to God while walking from the car to the restaurant?

If the person is being led by the Holy Spirit (as you say) to pray at the table, what objection could any of us possibly have?

Your question is conditional upon the fact that people are actually being led by the Holy Spirit when they pray in public. Someone earlier in this thread said that they know a person who prays in public for the sole reason of inviting a debate. To me, that does not sound like the prayers of a person who is being led by the Holy Spirit. So when a person prays in public the best we can do, is assume that they are doing it because of the leading of the Holy Spirit, but there's just no way to know if that is true or not, unfortunately.

"Why can't a person say a prayer of thanksgiving to God while walking from the car to the restaurant..."?

Well they can, but must they or should they for some reason?

I have never said that this is the time that people must pray to God. There you go jumping to conclusions again. We pray before a meal to thank God for all the blessings He has given us. Where you pray and how you pray is up to the person. But if you're praying for any other reason other than thanking God for the blessings He has given you, say like praying to invite debate, than in my opinion, you are not praying with a pure heart. You have an ulterior motive to your prayers, in the above example prayers that may lead to a debate and public confrontation, and then you are ultimately making a show of it. That's what I don't like.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
If you feel led to pray in public, do so, but don't raise your voice when you do, or make a show of it. Because then you're praying to be noticed by others, not to give thanks to God for the blessings He has given to you.

And so this brings about a question. What do you mean by "raising your voice" ? Do you mean that one should not be audible at all during prayer while in public or just not in an obnoxious way? For example while at ones table, only the nearest adjacent tables may be able to hear the prayer but not several tables away? Is this what you mean.

You can be audible but don't be obnoxious about it. In the example I've given here of public prayer, where we all joined hands and then one person led us all audibly in prayer, that happened in a diner. Now if you're praying audlibly and you can be heard at an adjacent table in a diner, in my opinion you are praying too loudly. Diners are noisy places.

Also (for clarification) is making the sign of the cross during public prayer or at anytime when in public, another way of "making a show of it"?

I don't think so.

 

[BakaFidelis]

I don't suppose it isn't too late to just yell "Do Over" and start back from the beginning before cyber-hackles were raised?

But I guess that would be silly of me to suggest that there seems to have been misunderstandings on either that have now avalanched.

Ah well. Try not to leave permanent marks.

 

[Melethiel]

Z and Q need to step back, take a deep breath, have a nice drink, and start over. "Hi, my name is..."

 

[Qoheleth]

Nope, not at all. You've taken an experience I had with others that made me uncomfortable along with what I understand prayer to be and use that as a basis to say I am against prayer in public. Public prayer makes me uncomfortable, that's why I don't do it, personally. But I have never said anyone can not and should not pray in public. That's your imagination running away with what I've said.

No, I said that this is what gives me the idea you may be against public prayer.

A big difference. Im not drawing any conclusions. Im asking for clarification.

That's not a good conclusion to come to. First I asked a question about why we couldn't pray from the car to the door instead of doing it in the restaurant. A question you still have not answered, by the way. (it has been below) I don't consider that question to be a suggestion of how people ought to pray. That too, is public prayer, isn't it? You're outside, with the public, praying to God.

Im not sure of your direction then. Yes we can pray in the parking lot or in the building. What exactly is the point your trying to make?

I have never condemned people who pray publicly in this thread, or said that you must not do it, because if you do then you are like a Pagan. Those are two assumptions by you about me that are totally false.

Hardly an assumption based on this statement without immediate qualification..."We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do."

Which seems to implies that any praying in public is pagan

My only problem is with the people who make a show of it, like the people I have prayed in public with did, in my opinion.

ok, understood. I would only add that I feel it is not such a good idea to judge whether or not someone is making a show of it though.

Your question is conditional upon the fact that people are actually being led by the Holy Spirit when they pray in public.

So when a person prays in public the best we can do, is assume that they are doing it because of the leading of the Holy Spirit, but there's just no way to know if that is true or not, unfortunately.

Exactly and this is why I will not form any opinion or judgment about those who do pray in public...at all. I mean who am I to say. So I let it be no matter what my past experiences have been.

I have never said that this is the time that people must pray to God. There you go jumping to conclusions again.

No, I answered your question..." Well they can"

And then I simply asked a question without jumping to any conclusion.

But if you're praying for any other reason other than thanking God for the blessings He has given you, say like praying to invite debate, than in my opinion, you are not praying with a pure heart. You have an ulterior motive to your prayers, in the above example prayers that may lead to a debate and public confrontation, and then you are ultimately making a show of it. That's what I don't like.

Yes, agreed, and this has been well established.

You can be audible but don't be obnoxious about it. In the example I've given here of public prayer, where we all joined hands and then one person led us all audibly in prayer, that happened in a diner. Now if you're praying audlibly and you can be heard at an adjacent table in a diner, in my opinion you are praying too loudly. Diners are noisy places.

Well, ok.



For all of this it appears that we agree...that is, public prayer, even when others are nearby is fine as long as the motivation for praying when others are nearby, isnt to draw attention to oneself and create some sort of spectacle...correct?


Q

 

[Zecryphon]

No, I said that this is what gives me the idea you may be against public prayer.

A big difference. Im not drawing any conclusions. Im asking for clarification.




Im not sure of your direction then. Yes we can pray in the parking lot or in the building. What exactly is the point your trying to make?




Hardly an assumption based on this statement without immediate qualification..."We are to pray behind closed doors, not in public like the pagans do."

Which seems to implies that any praying in public is pagan




ok, understood. I would only add that I feel it is not such a good idea to judge whether or not someone is making a show of it though.


Exactly and this is why I will not form any opinion or judgment about those who do pray in public...at all. I mean who am I to say. So I let it be no matter what my past experiences have been.




No, I answered your question..." Well they can"

And then I simply asked a question without jumping to any conclusion.


Yes, agreed, and this has been well established.




Well, ok.



For all of this it appears that we agree...that is, public prayer, even when others are nearby is fine as long as the motivation for praying when others are nearby, isnt to draw attention to oneself and create some sort of spectacle...correct?


Q

Yes, and I've said all I have to say on this.