Why does Paganism scare Christians?

[light upon light]

I don't call that salvation, I call that a nightmare.

If people had not packaged up absurd, immoral superstition and said "this is religion", then we would not have masses convinced that religion is absurd, immoral superstition.

 

[O mountains]

If people had not packaged up absurd, immoral superstition and said "this is religion", then we would not have masses convinced that religion is absurd, immoral superstition.

What do you consider true religion?

 

[smaneck]

If I become a christian I'm not sure how I'd be able to forgive that fact that god has doomed my benevolent compassionate Muslim grandfather to hell for all eternity.

You realize that not all Christians believe this? And it is a definite minority of Christians that believe in the rapture. When Paul talked about Christians meeting Jesus in the air, it was to escort Him back to earth!

 

[O mountains]

You realize that not all Christians believe this? And it is a definite minority of Christians that believe in the rapture. When Paul talked about Christians meeting Jesus in the air, it was to escort Him back to earth!

Well, Don't be stingy with your knowledge. I want to know more about the christian denominations that don't believe in eternal torment.

 

[smaneck]

Well, Don't be stingy with your knowledge. I want to know more about the christian denominations that don't believe in eternal torment.

I didn't believe in eternal torment when I was a Christian and I don't believe in it now that I'm a Baha'i. I was baptized in to the United Church of Christ (Obama's denomination) and confirmed a Presbyterian. However, the issue you raised was whether or not your "benevolent compassionate Muslim grandfather" would go to hell for all eternity. I think you would find that even the Pope (Francis, not Bernard) doesn't believe that. Even CS Lewis left the door open for the salvation of non-Christians. Via Crucis here probably understands Christian theology better than anyone who participates on this forum, but I think he would tell you he doesn't believe this.
You are taking American Evangelical Christianity as normative. It isn't.

 

[Tenebrae]

Yup

Are you sure you aren't confusing Aleister Crowley with Anton LaVey?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LoAmmi]

You are speaking of the Old Testament from an ancient time when man's consciousness of God was through the lense of a tribal warrior culture. There are also high points, and the Psalms are very beautiful. The Church Fathers included the Old Testament in the canon because they wanted to express the continuity of revelation.

The prevailing message of the New Testament is the grace of God as expressed in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It seems really convenient that the tough parts of the Tanach are primitive people who don't know HaShem but I guess the parts you like are the real deal.

Also, His grace is very much present with no threat of eternal torture in the text at all.

 

[BruceDLimber]

How do Christians know that God isn't a deceiver? His nature fits the description of tyrant/evil cult leader more so than an omni-benevolent being...

I honestly don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy who turns his back on god because he's been seduced by the devil's candy and doomed to suffer in hell for all eternity.

Perhaps you need to broaden your viewpoint and investigate other religions as well.

Baha'is, for example, fully accept BOTH Christ and Muhammad and see neither contradiction nor difficulties in viewing Them both as divinely-ordained and God-sent!

And the Baha'i scriptures, which number fully 200 volumes, portray God as totally loving and benevolent, not the sort of being you describe above. You can find our scriptures here:

• http://www.bahai-library.org (click "Writings" for our scriptures)
• http://www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual)

Further, God being One, Supreme, and without rival or equal, there's no devil out there trying to "get us." And satan merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Besides which, the Baha'i scriptures make it clear that hell--defined as spiritual separation from God--is NOT eternal! I quote them:

"...It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
−(Some Answered Questions, page 232)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, Don't be stingy with your knowledge. I want to know more about the christian denominations that don't believe in eternal torment.

It may depend on how you define "eternal torment".

The Eastern Orthodox understanding of Hell, for example, describes it as a state of being while in the midst of God's all-loving, all-merciful presence. That is, in the words of St. Isaac the Syrian, Hell is the "torment" of God's love. The anguish felt is to be in the presence of love, and feel the remorse of having sinned against such love.

Though what you're more likely to find is that many denominations don't make it a point to try and pin down or define what "Hell" is; understanding that Scripture itself is rather ambiguous on that point. Believing there is a "Hell", yes; but understanding that "Hell" is a somewhat nebulous concept.

Of course there are churches and denominations that are pretty specific about Hell. Fundamentalist and American-style Evangelical churches generally are pretty emphatic about what Hell is, even describing it as active divine torture.

Basically this: There really is no, and never has been, a solid consensus on the doctrine of Hell in Christianity. While Christians have put forward creeds and confessions over the centuries to say, "We most certainly believe this", Hell just doesn't get that sort of treatment.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[light upon light]

What do you consider true religion?

I like what Abdu'l-Baha wrote:

"If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."

Also, true religion recognizes the reality of the spiritual impulse in other faiths and does not claim itself to be true and all others false.

True religion inculcates spiritual values of unconditional love, unselfish action, and service to all of humanity.

 

[Supreme]

It may depend on how you define "eternal torment".

The Eastern Orthodox understanding of Hell, for example, describes it as a state of being while in the midst of God's all-loving, all-merciful presence. That is, in the words of St. Isaac the Syrian, Hell is the "torment" of God's love. The anguish felt is to be in the presence of love, and feel the remorse of having sinned against such love.

Though what you're more likely to find is that many denominations don't make it a point to try and pin down or define what "Hell" is; understanding that Scripture itself is rather ambiguous on that point. Believing there is a "Hell", yes; but understanding that "Hell" is a somewhat nebulous concept.

Of course there are churches and denominations that are pretty specific about Hell. Fundamentalist and American-style Evangelical churches generally are pretty emphatic about what Hell is, even describing it as active divine torture.

Basically this: There really is no, and never has been, a solid consensus on the doctrine of Hell in Christianity. While Christians have put forward creeds and confessions over the centuries to say, "We most certainly believe this", Hell just doesn't get that sort of treatment.

-CryptoLutheran

That said, the American evangelical concept of Hell is gaining greater acceptance these days over interpretation like that of the EO. I think that's why so many non-Christians think Christianity is unanimous on this concept of Hell.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Basically this: There really is no, and never has been, a solid consensus on the doctrine of Hell in Christianity. While Christians have put forward creeds and confessions over the centuries to say, "We most certainly believe this", Hell just doesn't get that sort of treatment.

-CryptoLutheran

I'd be such a terrible heretic of a Christian were I to ever convert. I'd hold fast to apokatastasis because that makes more sense to me. I'd probably also end up venerating Pelagius as well.

 

[light upon light]

I'd be such a terrible heretic of a Christian were I to ever convert. I'd hold fast to apokatastasis because that makes more sense to me. I'd probably also end up venerating Pelagius as well.

I certainly hold to apokatastasis. And I reject original sin as well (as do the Jewish people, in whose book the story appears). Among other inner meanings, the story of Adam and Eve and the garden is an allegory of being born from individual and collective childhood of the world of nature into the world of adolescence where the weight of moral choices and conscience weigh on us.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

It is more a case of the evolution of humanity's understanding of God and his message of love and grace. You seem to be attributing to God the acts of human beings who believe that they are carrying out God's will for them.

Wait wait wait. You are saying that the OT is not divine and based upon man's own understanding? Seriously? That essentially makes the Bible undivine and worthless. Either the Bible is the word of god or not. You cannot pick and choose.

I am not an expert on the gods of Mesopotamia and Sumer, so I do not know what type of trinities were associated to them. I do seem to remember, though, that Hinduism had a trinity consisting of God the Creator, God the Preserver, and God the Destroyer, so I know that trinitarian concepts are not exclusive to Christianity, although I think that the Christian Trinity is unique to itself.

The Christian trinity is not unique, trust me. Even the god El is not uniqe and entirely pagan. I worship El daily just like a Jew believes he does. The difference is that I do not make such a god anything he is not.

 

[smaneck]

Wait wait wait. You are saying that the OT is not divine and based upon man's own understanding? Seriously? That essentially makes the Bible undivine and worthless.

It isn't a matter of picking and choosing, it is simply recognizing the Bible for what it is; the product of a dialectic between the human and the divine.

 

[Tenebrae]

There is a vast lack of knowledge in the Christian world about what paganism is and what it is not. This is compounded by a few different things. First off, the number of "ex-witches" who come into the Christian sphere and then proceed to make a fortune off of Christian ignorance and fear by embellishing their testimony and sensationalizing their experiences. Since Christians already believe in the spiritual and in supernatural powers, we don't seem to have much trouble believing stories about demonic practices that include cursing your neighbors or sending demons after your rivals.

I beg to differ. I have lost count of the times I was asked (by christians) to make my testimony more gruesome and more titilating. Of course so all the glory could go to God. Apparently "I was a witch, I now follow Jesus Christ' wasnt dramatic enough. It seems that while some christians will never engage in things such as witchcraft, buying or being paid for sex etc that they get some sort of vicarious titilation out of dramatic testimonies

 

[Gwenyfur]

I beg to differ. I have lost count of the times I was asked (by christians) to make my testimony more gruesome and more titilating. Of course so all the glory could go to God. Apparently "I was a witch, I now follow Jesus Christ' wasnt dramatic enough. It seems that while some christians will never engage in things such as witchcraft, buying or being paid for sex etc that they get some sort of vicarious titilation out of dramatic testimonies

Umm so the cakes and ale wasn't dramatic enough? Or the singing? hrmmm come to think of it - I've never even shed anyone else's blood in ritual...let alone sacrificed a child...hrmmm...I must be a boring Witch indeed

 

[Zoness]

I beg to differ. I have lost count of the times I was asked (by christians) to make my testimony more gruesome and more titilating. Of course so all the glory could go to God. Apparently "I was a witch, I now follow Jesus Christ' wasnt dramatic enough. It seems that while some christians will never engage in things such as witchcraft, buying or being paid for sex etc that they get some sort of vicarious titilation out of dramatic testimonies

You're not the first person to say this, I was asked to do something one but I said "I am not comfortable misrepresenting such a big part of my past". Needless to say the welcome mat at that church was retracted for me pretty quickly lol.

 

[Tenebrae]

You said it so much more nicely than I did.


I said (in a very calm measured tone) "what? You mean being an ex witch, ex prescription drug addict, ex hooker, ex pro Domme (I somehow managed to not get any cross over between the two), victim, survivor and overcommer of child and adult sexual assault doesn't bring enough glory to God?

You're not the first person to say this, I was asked to do something one but I said "I am not comfortable misrepresenting such a big part of my past". Needless to say the welcome mat at that church was retracted for me pretty quickly lol.

 

[Lollerskates]

There isn't any need to understand us; scripture says their god doesn't approve of what we do or believe. And if they believe their god is good, then we must be wrong at best, evil at worst.

Everyone is evil to God - their ways at least. That is the whole point of needing a Savior and repentance in Christianity. If a Christian is judging you for being pagan, while (I don't know) eating easter eggs, Christmas ham, and heart shaped candies, then they will be judged for their own wrongs with equal measure. For Christians if you even tell a white lie, God's Universal Law says you have to die (goes for intangibles/spirits.)

This sort of sets a double standard since the early church spent it's time killing pagans and professed to have a good god and now they creates lies about pagans and still call their god good. Astonishing really how double standards like these get set

God said not to murder, and Christ said turn the other cheek, especially if you are with sin. Perhaps those who killed people in the name of God were not worshipping the Christian God, as both Christ and God do not console murder or killing for judgment if He doesn't order it. Pagans are not and should not be so much of a threat that they should be killed. On the contrary, Christians are supposed to preach the words to everyone. I am sure you know history is filled with men and women that swear by the people's gods in the name of demagoguery and conquest. Everyone is supposed to test the fruit of the tree/body. A murderer murders, a liar lies, and an adulterer cheats - these thing meaning a perpetual sinning. You can claim to be Christian all day long, but if you unrepentantly sin and more so, don't care about those sins, then you are not a Christian. I can claim to be a Muslim, but I have never read the entire Koran, and I don't believe in prophet Muhammad. I would not be considered Muslim, so why are these spiritual invalids that murder with little remorse considered Christians? Salem, slavery, the inquisition, imperialism under "god" - no follower of Christ would do these things, IMO. I think perhaps people are offended by pagans because many of those people do the exact same things pagans do, and it convicts them in that perhaps they are just Christian for show. Some may even be worried they will be exposed for their pagan Christianity.