Why does Mormonism want to be Associated with Christianity?

[Rescued One]

Hi,
Just got back home. Interesting. I would not have to give up God. By the way, I define doctrines of men as, only thise items that are not Biblical, and also are in disagreement with the Bible. Is that waht you mean by thise words. Sorry, but I have not ever heard that term before, and took you quite literally, Was I correct in using a literal interpretation, without asking you first? I would say no, but I didn't think about it til just now.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

See my new thread: Giving Up God For Mormonism

Here is what Mormons teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

 

[TasteForTruth]

Here is what Mormons teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

Actually, that is what Nephi wrote about the Bible, the efforts throughout the centuries to diminish its influence, and some of the results in the lives of innocent people.

Here is what the LDS church teaches about the Bible:

What Is the Holy Bible?

The Holy Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.


The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ. Source or from the full article
​

 

[katerinah1947]

See my new thread: Giving Up God For Mormonism

Here is what Mormons teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

Hi,
Thank you for your inputs.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Actually, that is what Nephi wrote about the Bible, the efforts throughout the centuries to diminish its influence, and some of the results in the lives of innocent people.

Here is what the LDS church teaches about the Bible:

What Is the Holy Bible?

The Holy Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.


The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ. Source or from the full article
​

Hi,
Thank you for your inputs.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you. I disagree that you would have to give up God to accept the Restored Gospel. We are not a Godless people. We worship God, like you do.

That is exactly what my Chinese Buddhist friends tell me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm still kinda vague on the first vision. No one seems to want to tell me much about it.

What is the message of the first vision?

That may be because there are conflicting versions of it, all from Mr. Smith. Here is the information about it from lds.org -

1832 Account. The earliest known account of the First Vision, the only account written in Joseph Smith’s own hand, is found in a short, unpublished autobiography Joseph Smith produced in the second half of 1832. In the account, Joseph Smith described his consciousness of his own sins and his frustration at being unable to find a church that matched the one he had read about in the New Testament and that would lead him to redemption. He emphasized Jesus Christ’s Atonement and the personal redemption it offered. He wrote that “the Lord” appeared and forgave him of his sins. As a result of the vision, Joseph experienced joy and love, though, as he noted, he could find no one who believed his account. Read the 1832 account here.
1835 Account. In the fall of 1835, Joseph Smith recounted his First Vision to Robert Matthews, a visitor to Kirtland, Ohio. The retelling, recorded in Joseph’s journal by his scribe Warren Parrish, emphasizes his attempt to discover which church was right, the opposition he felt as he prayed, and the appearance of one divine personage who was followed shortly by another. This account also notes the appearance of angels in the vision. Read the 1835 account here.
1838 Account. The narration of the First Vision best known to Latter-day Saints today is the 1838 account. First published in 1842 in the Times and Seasons, the Church’s newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, the account was part of a longer history dictated by Joseph Smith between periods of intense opposition. Whereas the 1832 account emphasizes the more personal story of Joseph Smith as a young man seeking forgiveness, the 1838 account focuses on the vision as the beginning of the “rise and progress of the Church.” Like the 1835 account, the central question of the narrative is which church is right. Read the 1838 account here.
1842 Account. Written in response to Chicago Democrat editor John Wentworth’s request for information about the Latter-day Saints, this account was printed in the Times and Seasons in 1842. (The “Wentworth letter,” as it is commonly known, is also the source for the Articles of Faith.)4 The account, intended for publication to an audience unfamiliar with Mormon beliefs, is concise and straightforward. As with earlier accounts, Joseph Smith noted the confusion he experienced and the appearance of two personages in answer to his prayer. The following year, Joseph Smith sent this account with minor modifications to a historian named Israel Daniel Rupp, who published it as a chapter in his book, He Pasa Ekklesia [The Whole Church]: An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States.5 Read the 1842 account here.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
To the LDS here. Your religion is one I have missed, other than what God has always told me about your religion, and as such that is not changeable. I am listening to both side here, the Chrisitian side, and I am looking up those references supplied.
I am also looking up the LDS side, and reading all references. I cannot tell you how long this will take, as research has no time limit, and has no predictable outcome, except one, if I do my job right, the answer will be The Answer. By the way, in reasearch the answers in general, not all the possibilities but the most general answers are Yes, No, I can't tell.
If you guys did not say, that indeed I don't have to give up The Revealed God in His Fullness, because that was determined by Him and no human what I know of, that allows me to go futher now, on the LDS issue.
I also have an Islamic project. It seems that their prophet was much like Joseph Smith, in his private life, but the Muslims are trying to make the point that thier actual religion was stolen from them and the stolen version has been used to conquer the world. Christianity can also say that. Maybe Mormonism can also say that.
In any event, this is no longer easy and there are no easy answers, apart from what God has said at various times to me and in various ways, about all three of those religions.
This is going to be hard. And I don't know where I'll be until this is over. Yet, I do know God persoanlly, have seen Him and deal with The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and The Father in such a way, that I must be somewhere telling others of my experiences. One, is He is Trinitarian, and Jesus is..... This could go on for a long time.
I do wish though that each of you in their own religions, could have or would do this: Try and prove your religion wrong to yourself. Then I would have to do nothing.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[TasteForTruth]

Hi,
To the LDS here. Your religion is one I have missed, other than what God has always told me about your religion, and as such that is not changeable. I am listening to both side here, the Chrisitian side, and I am looking up those references supplied.
I am also looking up the LDS side, and reading all references. I cannot tell you how long this will take, as research has no time limit, and has no predictable outcome, except one, if I do my job right, the answer will be The Answer. By the way, in reasearch the answers in general, not all the possibilities but the most general answers are Yes, No, I can't tell.
If you guys did not say, that indeed I don't have to give up The Revealed God in His Fullness, because that was determined by Him and no human what I know of, that allows me to go futher now, on the LDS issue.
I also have an Islamic project. It seems that their prophet was much like Joseph Smith, in his private life, but the Muslims are trying to make the point that thier actual religion was stolen from them and the stolen version has been used to conquer the world. Christianity can also say that. Maybe Mormonism can also say that.
In any event, this is no longer easy and there are no easy answers, apart from what God has said at various times to me and in various ways, about all three of those religions.
This is going to be hard. And I don't know where I'll be until this is over. Yet, I do know God persoanlly, have seen Him and deal with The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and The Father in such a way, that I must be somewhere telling others of my experiences. One, is He is Trinitarian, and Jesus is..... This could go on for a long time.
I do wish though that each of you in their own religions, could have or would do this: Try and prove your religion wrong to yourself. Then I would have to do nothing.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

If you want to know and understand the LDS religion, your time would be far better spent somewhere other than on this forum. There is just too much nonsense getting passed off as "LDS doctrine" here. A good place to start would be here. You are perfectly capable of judging a religion on its own merits.

 

[TasteForTruth]

That is exactly what my Chinese Buddhist friends tell me.

Your friend is right.

 

[Rescued One]

Actually, that is what Nephi wrote about the Bible, the efforts throughout the centuries to diminish its influence, and some of the results in the lives of innocent people.

Here is what the LDS church teaches about the Bible:

What Is the Holy Bible?

The Holy Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.


The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ. Source or from the full article
​

I resorted to the Standard Works.

1 Nephi 13:28. "Many Plain and Precious Things"
The Prophet later said: “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).
Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible helped restore many of the "plain and precious things" (1 Nephi 13:28) which were lost.
Book of Mormon Student Manual, copyright 1989, p. 14

The newer online version has this:

Plain and Precious Truths Removed from the Bible
•Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained the meaning of “plain and precious”: “Elements … missing from the Bible were both ‘plain and most precious.’ They were plain in their simplicity and clarity, being easy to ‘the understanding of … men’; they were precious in their purity and profound worth, their saving significance and eternal importance to the children of God” (Christ and the New Covenant [1997], 5).
•One educator suggested the following explanation for changes in the scriptures:
“Apparently the original manuscripts of the Bible disappeared very early. This seems particularly true of the New Testament. Sir Frederic Kenyon, one of the greatest textual scholars of the early twentieth century, commented thus: ‘The originals of the several books have long ago disappeared. They must have perished in the very infancy of the Church; for no allusion is ever made to them by any Christian writer.’ Kenyon’s statement is particularly important to us because it means that for centuries there has to us because it means that for centuries there has not been an original Bible manuscript to guide the reader. Even in the early decades of the original Christian church, the original texts seem to have been absent. …

“The angel [in 1 Nephi 13:21–29] makes it clear that he is not talking about subtle accidents of hand and eye, resulting in a few misplaced letters or words—the unplanned errors of copyists. He pointedly ascribes these changes to the planned editorial work of designing men [see 1 Nephi 13:27–28]. …

“As we read the words of the angel, we discover that the world never has had a complete Bible, for it was massively—even cataclysmically—corrupted before it was distributed. Of course, in addition to the major willful corruption of the Bible in the early Christian era, the manuscripts have also continued to suffer the gradual and relatively mild changes, due to errors of hand and eye, that the scholars talk about. Thus there have been two processes at work: (1) a major, sudden, and deliberate editorial corruption of the text and (2) a gradual promulgation of variants that has occurred as a natural consequence of copying and translation” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible! [1990], 74–75).

Joseph Smith taught that “many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled” (History of the Church, 1:245).
Read rest of chapter here

But where are those original plates that contained the Book of Mormon? Which manuscripts did Joseph Smith use when he began his "Inspired Version" of the Bible?

 

[katerinah1947]

If you want to know and understand the LDS religion, your time would be far better spent somewhere other than on this forum. There is just too much nonsense getting passed off as "LDS doctrine" here. A good place to start would be here. You are perfectly capable of judging a religion on its own merits.

Hi,
Remember that I cannot and will not say God was or is wrong about you guys. Since that is so, I am willing to see why you both say, that I don't have to throw out the Trinitarian God, to join your religion. You both have said that I do not have to do that.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[TheBarrd]

That may be because there are conflicting versions of it, all from Mr. Smith. Here is the information about it from lds.org -

1832 Account. The earliest known account of the First Vision, the only account written in Joseph Smith’s own hand, is found in a short, unpublished autobiography Joseph Smith produced in the second half of 1832. In the account, Joseph Smith described his consciousness of his own sins and his frustration at being unable to find a church that matched the one he had read about in the New Testament and that would lead him to redemption. He emphasized Jesus Christ’s Atonement and the personal redemption it offered. He wrote that “the Lord” appeared and forgave him of his sins. As a result of the vision, Joseph experienced joy and love, though, as he noted, he could find no one who believed his account. Read the 1832 account here.
1835 Account. In the fall of 1835, Joseph Smith recounted his First Vision to Robert Matthews, a visitor to Kirtland, Ohio. The retelling, recorded in Joseph’s journal by his scribe Warren Parrish, emphasizes his attempt to discover which church was right, the opposition he felt as he prayed, and the appearance of one divine personage who was followed shortly by another. This account also notes the appearance of angels in the vision. Read the 1835 account here.
1838 Account. The narration of the First Vision best known to Latter-day Saints today is the 1838 account. First published in 1842 in the Times and Seasons, the Church’s newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, the account was part of a longer history dictated by Joseph Smith between periods of intense opposition. Whereas the 1832 account emphasizes the more personal story of Joseph Smith as a young man seeking forgiveness, the 1838 account focuses on the vision as the beginning of the “rise and progress of the Church.” Like the 1835 account, the central question of the narrative is which church is right. Read the 1838 account here.
1842 Account. Written in response to Chicago Democrat editor John Wentworth’s request for information about the Latter-day Saints, this account was printed in the Times and Seasons in 1842. (The “Wentworth letter,” as it is commonly known, is also the source for the Articles of Faith.)4 The account, intended for publication to an audience unfamiliar with Mormon beliefs, is concise and straightforward. As with earlier accounts, Joseph Smith noted the confusion he experienced and the appearance of two personages in answer to his prayer. The following year, Joseph Smith sent this account with minor modifications to a historian named Israel Daniel Rupp, who published it as a chapter in his book, He Pasa Ekklesia [The Whole Church]: An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States.5 Read the 1842 account here.

Yeah...that clears it right up
Thanks, Sweetie

 

[TasteForTruth]

I resorted to the Standard Works.

1 Nephi 13:28. "Many Plain and Precious Things"
The Prophet later said: “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).
Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible helped restore many of the "plain and precious things" (1 Nephi 13:28) which were lost.
Book of Mormon Student Manual, copyright 1989, p. 14

It is commendable that you used the standard works. Here's more commentary on the Bible from the official LDS website:

A certain Christian man laboring in India offered to give interested natives a copy of the Bible. After hearing of its message, many eagerly responded. One old man, looking upon the Bible with reverence, asked, “How long has this book been in the world?” When he learned it had existed for centuries, he sorrowfully shook his head. “I am an old man. All my friends have died hopeless. … And all this time the book was here and nobody brought it to me.” 1 How quickly he sensed the worth of his new possession: a record of God’s dealings with man from the time of the Creation.


The Bible is indeed a book of immense consequence. Book of Mormon prophets who in visions saw it come forth testified of its great value. For Lehi, the word of God was the physical reality behind the iron rod that led unwaveringly to the tree of life. (See 1 Ne. 15:23–24.) For Nephi, the Jewish record was the “book of the Lamb of God” (1 Ne. 13:28), not fully whole nor pure, but nevertheless of great worth. Indeed, the record was so vital that Lehi was commanded to take a copy of one record as then compiled—the brass plates—with him to the promised land, in spite of jeopardy to his sons’ lives and the ultimate cost of Laban’s.


But we also learn from the Book of Mormon how generally unappreciated the biblical record is.

Source
​

 

[TasteForTruth]

Hi,
Remember that I cannot and will not say God was or is wrong about you guys. Since that is so, I am willing to see why you both say, that I don't have to throw out the Trinitarian God, to join your religion. You both have said that I do not have to do that.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

No, you don't have to. But if you know for a fact that God has no body, it makes little sense to join a religion that teaches that He does.

 

[katerinah1947]

No, you don't have to. But if you know for a fact that God has no body, it makes little sense to join a religion that teaches that He does.

Hi,
Remember what God told me about you LDS guys, that too I don't have to give up, according to you.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[TasteForTruth]

Hi,
Remember what God told me about you LDS guys, that too I don't have to give up, according to you.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

I don't know what you're referring to...

 

[katerinah1947]

I don't know what you're referring to...

Hi,
Okay. In the fleece-Type of test as is put in Judges 6:39, I was told upon not the actual use of a fleece, but one equally hard, that I was to believe forever more that all I had brought to them was God, as "This Is The Holy Spirit."
That extremely hard and improbable test, was exact just like is listed in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. That was used also.

Judges 6:39
Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew."

Deuteronomy 18:21
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Since the test was totally accurate, totally tough, and totally on time, what I have from and about God, is true. In that set of pieces of information, one LDS occurance was there. One JW piece was there.
The LDS piece was extensive.
That is what I am talking about. God showed me what The LDS were in His Eyes. And you said, that I do not have to give God up, so that information I don't have to give up.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[TheBarrd]

I agree with her.

Thank you, Dr. Steve!

 

[TheBarrd]

What is it that the "Mighty God" you mention can do that our understanding of God cannot?

Based on your comments, several of these items you mention would indicate that Jesus was not mighty. Because Jesus was once a man, He was born like any other man tiny helpless and needing to be fed and changed and bathed. He also grew up like any other child and matured and died. I hadn't realized that orthodox Christians believed that this diminished Jesus in some way. Maybe you can explain exactly how that works.

To answer your first question, there is nothing the Mighty God cannot do. Including Create the cosmos from scratch...no pre-existing matter needed.

As to your second question, you are comparing apples and kitty cats.
You seem to have forgotten that Jesus existed "in the beginning" and that "all things were made by Him". He didn't become God by being born and all the rest of it, He already was God to begin with. He didn't have to be exalted to godhood, rather, He put His glory to the side for our sakes. Far from being "diminished in some way", this act of supreme love only adds to His Majesty.
If you truly want to know more about how that works, I'd suggest that you pray for the wisdom to understand it. God has promised that He would give that wisdom to all who ask Him for it.
You don't need to lean upon your own understanding in this matter.

 

[Ran77]

To answer your first question, there is nothing the Mighty God cannot do. Including Create the cosmos from scratch...no pre-existing matter needed.

Except that you didn't answer my question. Here it is again:

"What is it that the "Mighty God" you mention can do that our understanding of God cannot?"

As to your second question, you are comparing apples and kitty cats.
You seem to have forgotten that Jesus existed "in the beginning" and that "all things were made by Him". He didn't become God by being born and all the rest of it, He already was God to begin with. He didn't have to be exalted to godhood, rather, He put His glory to the side for our sakes. Far from being "diminished in some way", this act of supreme love only adds to His Majesty.

Considering that in my attempt to explain the LDS view of God I stated Jesus existed "in the beginning" it isn't logical for you to suggest that I have somehow forgotten that in the last couple of days.

In fact, this entire response "seems to forget" that the LDS doctrine on this matter is that God was man in the exact same way Jesus was. How can that possibly be a comparison of apples to cats? :o

If you truly want to know more about how that works, I'd suggest that you pray for the wisdom to understand it. God has promised that He would give that wisdom to all who ask Him for it.

Got it. Did the prayer. Got the wisdom.

You don't need to lean upon your own understanding in this matter.

Good thing I don't do that. Because then I could see the flaws with your statements quite readily.