Why does Mormonism want to be Associated with Christianity?

[TheBarrd]

What does that have to do with my pointing out how TheBarrd's comment is flawed? Using her own words I replaced God with Jesus and we now have a statement that is obviously flawed and the opposite of what she has previously said about the matter. In other words, I put in pertinent data and received an error for the output.

You are trying to say that god experienced a human life just as Jesus did.
So, was he the messiah of his home world? Was he crucified, and resurrected? If that is so, why isn't he still "the son of god" on his home world?
It's all very confusing.

What TheBarrd's actual comment was is that the true God, Creator of all that exists, was never a man on any planet anywhere, in this universe or anywhere else.
I don't believe in an endless progression of gods who exalt more gods, who exalt more gods...on and on and on...gods without number, on worlds, each one with his own universe that he created from "pre existing matter"...it boggles the mind.
Trying to fit Jesus into the same mold as your LDS god...well, it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Saul Hudson]

You're comparing Mormon Christian theology to 3rd/4th Century Roman Christian theology. What you need to do is compare both of these theologies to the theology that Jesus and His Apostles taught before it was corrupted, then you'll find your answer. Cheers!

 

[katerinah1947]

You're comparing Mormon Christian theology to 3rd/4th Century Roman Christian theology. What you need to do is compare both of these theologies to the theology that Jesus and His Apostles taught before it was corrupted, then you'll find your answer. Cheers!

Hi,
I guess you know what you mean, but I sure don't know what you are allluding to.
And, if you are saying that Christianity, mainstream Christianity, totally understood all that God is and was, in the earliest years, that would be an error. We are still learning about God. They are still learning about The Bible.
What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say the earliest more primative, less educatated views of God match the Mormon Theology or the reverse, I did not understand you yet on which position you are giving us as true to you.
As for me, God is Extremely Trinitarian, and I have been told by two of the LDS, that God being Trinitarian and being Mormon, or LDS are incompatible. Yet, I still don't know what you meant.
I will not as I have told others give up the revealed God I know, and that precisely is what LDS and Mormonism seeks for me to do, in order to join them. And, how is it possible to give up a proven God, and The Proven God, for some theoretical version that is supposedly my God, but is also not my God?
And who says that The Christian Theology other than a few people, that Christianity has been corrupted? Who? If it people who check all they do with others, or is it some splinter group that makes mistakes as they do not have the Aramaic, The Ancient Greek, the Aramaic Idioms that are in Ancient Greek of the time, who is this group or set of persons that have proven, with a presented proof, that Christianity has been corrupted, in what they say God is, who is very Trinitarian. Who?
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Rescued One]

You are trying to say that god experienced a human life just as Jesus did.
So, was he the messiah of his home world? Was he crucified, and resurrected? If that is so, why isn't he still "the son of god" on his home world?
It's all very confusing.

What TheBarrd's actual comment was is that the true God, Creator of all that exists, was never a man on any planet anywhere, in this universe or anywhere else.
I don't believe in an endless progression of gods who exalt more gods, who exalt more gods...on and on and on...gods without number, on worlds, each one with his own universe that he created from "pre existing matter"...it boggles the mind.
Trying to fit Jesus into the same mold as your LDS god...well, it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Rescued One]

You're comparing Mormon Christian theology to 3rd/4th Century Roman Christian theology. What you need to do is compare both of these theologies to the theology that Jesus and His Apostles taught before it was corrupted, then you'll find your answer. Cheers!

Mormons don't consider the Bible an accurate and complete source of Christian teaching but our teachings are nevertheless accurately based on the Bible instead of the words of Joseph Smith.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

Macheenan claims....

Claim: "Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!"

Response: Where is the separation in the 3 in 1 God, only "one" God, to make it so when Christ-God became a man, the Father & Holy Ghost didn't become a man? Early Christians did teach: "God became a man, so you can learn from a man how to become God(s)." Or Christ became a man so you can learn from Christ how to become God(s). This forumla was biblical, the Nicene Creed, isn't. (The Trinitarian Controversy by William G. Rusch, Fortress, Phil., 1980). The formula, 'God became a man so you can learn how to become god(s),' is repeated down through the centuries in different ways, thus it's called Tautum Quatum - The Great Exchange. The later Nicene Creed concepts about what "3 in 1 God" was suppose to be like, influenced later versions of deification to include that Christians would become one god within the trinity.

However! There's no early Christian father that I know of at this time, that said that God the Father became a man, like Christ did. In fact, many speak of the Father as being without a physical body, while Christ did have a body, though it was later argued if he had one or not. Especially, as the resurrection doctrine fell under anti-body Greek philosophy. For by the time of St. Augustine, they settled for a "spiritual resurrection," only. Earlier, however, early anti-Christians made fun of Christ having a body like unto a man's, & why he came down to earth to work with wood after creating the universe. (A. S. Garretson, Primitive Christianity And Early Criticism, (Boston: Sherman, French & Company, 1912; Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4, Origen Against Celsus); Early Christains In Disarray, Noel B. Reynolds; Restoring The Ancient Church, Barry Robert Bickmore).

Mormons believe through modern revelation to have expounded on the restored version of deification, to include that God the Father is a glorified resurrected man, like Christ, with a resurrected body, like Christ's. But early Christians were godmakers before Mormons were. So historic Christianity is to blame for having a doctrine of deification that was later restored & refreshed in Mormonism.

Claim: "Christianity believes there is only ONE God!"

Response: Maybe after 325 AD, after the Nicene Creed was forced upon the church through Constantine's Emperior decrees at Nicea. But before that, even the early anti-Christians knew that earlier Christains taught that there was one god, three gods, many gods, & thus couldn't make up their minds as to how many gods there were. (R. Joseph Hoffmann, Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford Un. Press, 1987); Robert Wilken, The Christians As The Romans Saw Them, (Yale University Press, 1984).

Also, the Jews & Isalmic cultures that saw three gods in the trinity, couldn't figure out the so-call "monotheism" anymore than Christian artists, in attempting to depict the trinity as three in one! (Geoffrey Barraclough, The Christian World, (London: Thames & Hudson, 1981), 10; Roland H. Bainton, Behold The Christ, (Harper, 1974), 203, fig.s 231-233; George Every, Christian Legends, Library of the World's Myths & Legends, (NY: Peter Betrick Books, 1970, 1987), 18 & 20; Frederick Buechner, The Faces of Jesus, (NY: Simon & Schuster, 1974), 216; Gabriel Bise, The Illuminated Naples Bible (Old Testament), 14th Century AD Manuscript, #1191 Codex. Old & New Test. (Fol. Ir-478v), (Fol. 481r-522r), see p.17-19).

Claim: "Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this)."

Response: The use of a shocking generalization is what is used here in the above claim. It's intented to shock, & freak people out. It's like how Atheists, for shock value, say Christians drink blood, & have a barbaric meal of eating flesh. What Atheists don't do is what wasn't done here. Explain the surrounding beliefs. They didn't explain the symbolical nature of the sacrament (Even Christ did this, John 6:38-60). It's like how someone could expound first upon how evil Satan is, then use a shocking generalization question: "And did you know who created Satan? Jesus did!" (Yes, Born again Christians teach this).

The historical fact is that early Christianity did teach that there was a pre-existence, Christ pre-existenced. Satan was a good angel before his fall, & there was a family in heaven, council in heaven, war in heaven, during which the rebel angels were cast out by Michael the arch-angel & his hosts. Satan & his angels fall from heaven, was even known & mocked by early anti-Christians, like Celsus, who lumped all Christian sects together, during the 2nd cent., to claim that they speak of two divine sons fighting in heaven Of fallen angels crashing down into the infernal regions to be punished in chains. (Darell Thorpe, Pre-existence).

Claim: "The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God."

Response: Was Jesus, the one god, formed in Mary's womb? Was the Father & Holy Ghost also, if there's only one God? If not, where is the separation in the trinity to make it so that the Father & Holy Spirit weren't also born, grew up, get crucified, resurrected, appear to have a body & eat food during Christ's visits after his resurrection? Did Jesus have a literal Mother, but not a literal Father? If so, why would the Jews want to stone him for calling his Father as literally his Father, but also our Father, (John 17; 20:17), & in how Christ, they charged, was making himself a god? (John 10:29-39). They understood what he was saying, that he was "the son of God." If that is not literal, then Christ's couldn't have been the "son" of a being who couldn't have been a literal father, though Christ had a literal mother, Mary. Critics wouldn't have any complaints then. But, they knew the claim was literal, which is why they had difficulty in Christ, the Son of God, after creating the worlds, would need to come down to earth, as God the Father's son, in such a low ranked manner. Need to walk about, have to eat, be tempted, get thirsty, didn't have enough power to keep himself from suffering, let alone his followers during days of persecutions. The answers as to why Christ became a man was given by early Christian Apologists that said Christ became man so you can learn from man how man may become god(s). (W. H. C. Frend: Martyrdom & Persecution In The Early Church, (NY: Anchor Books Doubleday & Co., 1967).

 

[TheBarrd]

Claim: "Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!"

Response: Where is the separation in the 3 in 1 God, only "one" God, to make it so when Christ-God became a man, the Father & Holy Ghost didn't become a man?

-ECr

Obviously, you do not understand the concept of the Trinitiy. Each member of the Godhead is a separate "person" (for lack of a better term), and yet all three are One God.
It was not necessary for the Father or the Holy Spirit to "become a man" as they were present with the Son.

Early Christians did teach: "God became a man, so you can learn from a man how to become God(s)." Or Christ became a man so you can learn from Christ how to become God(s).

-ECr

No...Christ became a man in order to be the Savior. In a sense, He taught us how to love in the way that God loves...however, there were no lessons in "How to become a god with your very own world to rule", nor did Jesus or His followers ever conceive of such a thing.

However! There's no early Christian father that I know of at this time, that said that God the Father became a man, like Christ did.

-ECr

The Mormon doctrine under examination is not whether God "became a man", but rather whether He started out that way. LDS teach that god was once a man who was born on another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world...and the beat goes on...and on....and on..........
Giving us an infinite progression of gods down to....well....evidently it is "turtles all the way down"...there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how all of this began, or Who or What deified the very first man to become a god...
Nor do LDS pay much attention to this plethora of gods. When asked, they simply kiss them off with an airy wave of the hand and a rather cheerful "don't know, don't care" as if that makes it all okay...they are monotheists, because, although they agree that all these other gods are as real as rain, they don't worship them. In fact, they "know nothing of them"....and if they did, it wouldn't matter "a hill of beans".
I seriously doubt that this "doctrine" is defensible by quoting some early church father...

to be continued...

 

[TheBarrd]

Claim: "Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this)."

Response: The use of a shocking generalization is what is used here in the above claim. It's intented to shock, & freak people out. It's like how Atheists, for shock value, say Christians drink blood, & have a barbaric meal of eating flesh. What Atheists don't do is what wasn't done here. Explain the surrounding beliefs. They didn't explain the symbolical nature of the sacrament (Even Christ did this, John 6:38-60). It's like how someone could expound first upon how evil Satan is, then use a shocking generalization question: "And did you know who created Satan? Jesus did!" (Yes, Born again Christians teach this).

-ECr

This may be the most ridiculous claim of all. Christianity teaches that Jesus was "begotten not made". This is not referring to His incarnation, but rather to the fact that He existed, along with the Father, from before time began.
Satan, like all of the angels, was created, not begotten. He is not "one with the Father"...he is, like all of the angels, entirely separate.

The historical fact is that early Christianity did teach that there was a pre-existence, Christ pre-existenced. Satan was a good angel before his fall, & there was a family in heaven, council in heaven, war in heaven, during which the rebel angels were cast out by Michael the arch-angel & his hosts. Satan & his angels fall from heaven, was even known & mocked by early anti-Christians, like Celsus, who lumped all Christian sects together, during the 2nd cent., to claim that they speak of two divine sons fighting in heaven Of fallen angels crashing down into the infernal regions to be punished in chains. (Darell Thorpe, Pre-existence).

-ECr

What does this have to do with the Mormon idea that they are "spirit children" who "pre exist" in Heaven with their Heavenly Father and their Heavenly Mother? Christianity never taught any such notion...

Claim: "The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God."

Response: Was Jesus, the one god, formed in Mary's womb? Was the Father & Holy Ghost also, if there's only one God? If not, where is the separation in the trinity to make it so that the Father & Holy Spirit weren't also born, grew up, get crucified, resurrected, appear to have a body & eat food during Christ's visits after his resurrection? Did Jesus have a literal Mother, but not a literal Father? If so, why would the Jews want to stone him for calling his Father as literally his Father, but also our Father, (John 17; 20:17), & in how Christ, they charged, was making himself a god? (John 10:29-39). They understood what he was saying, that he was "the son of God." If that is not literal, then Christ's couldn't have been the "son" of a being who couldn't have been a literal father, though Christ had a literal mother, Mary. Critics wouldn't have any complaints then. But, they knew the claim was literal, which is why they had difficulty in Christ, the Son of God, after creating the worlds, would need to come down to earth, as God the Father's son, in such a low ranked manner. Need to walk about, have to eat, be tempted, get thirsty, didn't have enough power to keep himself from suffering, let alone his followers during days of persecutions. The answers as to why Christ became a man was given by early Christian Apologists that said Christ became man so you can learn from man how man may become god(s). (W. H. C. Frend: Martyrdom & Persecution In The Early Church, (NY: Anchor Books Doubleday & Co., 1967).

-ECr

And so, back to the beginning again. You have missed the whole point of the "Trinity" (I personally prefer the term "Godhead"). Each "Person" is an individual, yet part of the Whole.

Did Jesus have a literal Mother, but not a literal Father?

-ECr
Are you suggesting that God literally had sex with Mary to produce the infant Jesus? I hope I have misunderstood you, here.
To clarify:
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
IOW, Jesus did not have, or need, a physical "father".
Or did you not know that God's ways are not the ways of men?
His ways are above our ways....

 

[ivanc0]

Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!

Christianity will never teach that people will become a God like Him.

Christianity believes there is only ONE God!

Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this).

The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God (Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3).

• Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
• Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
• John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.

The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).

• Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Are you reading Isaiah 43:10? No God or gods have existed before God! And no God or gods formed in the future.

Why has Mormonism not just said we are another religion that leads to God? Our (Mormonism) experience and encounter believes we have heard from God! Why say we are a branch of Christianity? Understand clearly, Jesus has to be the same one God not another God. Or the Jesus of the New Testament was a blasphemer and and Idolater! Why? Because Jesus received worship! God does not share his worship with ANYONE! Period!

• Exodus 34;14 says: for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
• Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not bow down to them or worship them.

Isaiah 43:10 says, there are no other Gods in the past or future! If your Mormon God forms another God or gods He will violate Isaiah 43:10! God cannot change His mind concerning Isaiah 43:10! Malachi 3;6: “I am the LORD, and I do not change. To change, He (God) would be considered a liar and an Idolater! That is not the God of Christianity!

About the sons of God read Job chapter 1 and chapter 2, God meets with his sons, and make a bet on Job with one of his sons.

 

[ivanc0]

-ECr

This may be the most ridiculous claim of all. Christianity teaches that Jesus was "begotten not made". This is not referring to His incarnation, but rather to the fact that He existed, along with the Father, from before time began.
Satan, like all of the angels, was created, not begotten. He is not "one with the Father"...he is, like all of the angels, entirely separate.

-ECr

What does this have to do with the Mormon idea that they are "spirit children" who "pre exist" in Heaven with their Heavenly Father and their Heavenly Mother? Christianity never taught any such notion...

-ECr

And so, back to the beginning again. You have missed the whole point of the "Trinity" (I personally prefer the term "Godhead"). Each "Person" is an individual, yet part of the Whole.
-ECr
Are you suggesting that God literally had sex with Mary to produce the infant Jesus? I hope I have misunderstood you, here.
To clarify:
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
IOW, Jesus did not have, or need, a physical "father".
Or did you not know that God's ways are not the ways of men?
His ways are above our ways....

Actually God could do what ever he consider correct, this is why is God.
You putting limits to God is not Good.
I least we know a God (Jesus) that has normal body and glory.

Will some one deny that?

 

[ivanc0]

-ECr

Obviously, you do not understand the concept of the Trinitiy. Each member of the Godhead is a separate "person" (for lack of a better term), and yet all three are One God.
It was not necessary for the Father or the Holy Spirit to "become a man" as they were present with the Son.

-ECr

No...Christ became a man in order to be the Savior. In a sense, He taught us how to love in the way that God loves...however, there were no lessons in "How to become a god with your very own world to rule", nor did Jesus or His followers ever conceive of such a thing.

-ECr

The Mormon doctrine under examination is not whether God "became a man", but rather whether He started out that way. LDS teach that god was once a man who was born on another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world, who, in turn had been born on yet another world and was deified by the god of that world...and the beat goes on...and on....and on..........
Giving us an infinite progression of gods down to....well....evidently it is "turtles all the way down"...there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how all of this began, or Who or What deified the very first man to become a god...
Nor do LDS pay much attention to this plethora of gods. When asked, they simply kiss them off with an airy wave of the hand and a rather cheerful "don't know, don't care" as if that makes it all okay...they are monotheists, because, although they agree that all these other gods are as real as rain, they don't worship them. In fact, they "know nothing of them"....and if they did, it wouldn't matter "a hill of beans".
I seriously doubt that this "doctrine" is defensible by quoting some early church father...

to be continued...

Universe is enormous, and god is eternal, to imaging a God without beginning is like comparing God with the big Bang. " so all came from nothing" if before the creation of man there was nothing, so god is nothing that is inconceivable, God has to be something and has to live somewhere, even if that somewhere is everywhere.
I God fills the universe then also fills ourselves and our sins, but If God has a kind of container them our sins are external to him.
As such God has to be confined to somewhere and his power control everything he wants to control.

 

[ivanc0]

Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!

Christianity will never teach that people will become a God like Him.

Christianity believes there is only ONE God!

Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this).

The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God (Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3).

• Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
• Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
• John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.

The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).

• Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Are you reading Isaiah 43:10? No God or gods have existed before God! And no God or gods formed in the future.

Why has Mormonism not just said we are another religion that leads to God? Our (Mormonism) experience and encounter believes we have heard from God! Why say we are a branch of Christianity? Understand clearly, Jesus has to be the same one God not another God. Or the Jesus of the New Testament was a blasphemer and and Idolater! Why? Because Jesus received worship! God does not share his worship with ANYONE! Period!

• Exodus 34;14 says: for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
• Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not bow down to them or worship them.

Isaiah 43:10 says, there are no other Gods in the past or future! If your Mormon God forms another God or gods He will violate Isaiah 43:10! God cannot change His mind concerning Isaiah 43:10! Malachi 3;6: “I am the LORD, and I do not change. To change, He (God) would be considered a liar and an Idolater! That is not the God of Christianity!

Mormons have the most beautiful theology of any Christian religion, They follow Jesus with great devotion and they try to be good people. I love Mormons.
but unfortunately they also have the book of Mormon, and believe the native Americans are cousins with the Israelites. maybe you should send some weapons to the siux!!! ha ha ha.
If the Mormon theology was true , heaven will be really heaven.!!!!!

 

[TheBarrd]

Actually God could do what ever he consider correct, this is why is God.
You putting limits to God is not Good.
I least we know a God (Jesus) that has normal body and glory.

Will some one deny that?

Claiming that god was a man born on another world severely limits him.
Christianity teaches that God existed before there was anything else. HEe created the universe, and all that it contains from nothing.
And why would you refer to Jesus as "a god"?
How many gods do you worship?
Christians worship ONE God, understanding that the Godhead includes The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Mormons have the most beautiful theology of any Christian religion, They follow Jesus with great devotion and they try to be good people. I love Mormons.
but unfortunately they also have the book of Mormon, and believe the native Americans are cousins with the Israelites. maybe you should send some weapons to the siux!!! ha ha ha.
If the Mormon theology was true , heaven will be really heaven.!!!!!

Three cheers for recognizing the beauty of LDS theology. No one need believe it, but I agree with your sentiments. There is no heaven like the one painted in LDS theology!

 

[drstevej]

There is no heaven like the one painted in LDS theology!

Certainly not in the Bible!

 

[Norah63]

Yes I have never met a Mormon that was unkind or uncaring. That speaks volumes.
Words do matter. And the heaven we shall dwell in is my earnest desire.

 

[Sojourner1]

Closing due to the Unorthodox Forum being moved to a Christians only area.